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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Academy ain't that bad?
Thread: Academy ain't that bad? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted December 11, 2006 05:42 PM

First of all:
Welcome to the club!

And academy is just wonderful on the battlefield.
Many shooters (even 7th level ), STRONG casters, the computer focuses of unimpotant units...
And with good wizard, you can win any battle.

And as you mentioned, the concept is great.
Better then H3's concept and ofcouse, the H4's one...
And in the beginning I thought that the climate change isn't good, but now I sure I was wrong.
It adds something nice to the town.
Now it's half arabian town, which is very nice and fits the idea of mages well, in my opinion.

Libary is awsome! +1 spell to every level!

Creature's design is great. A little bit different then the other versions.
They added some things (some of them a little bit strange):
-Faceless Genies
-Swords to Golems
-Rashasa Rani/Raja (Yay!)
-Electrical Titan (Cool!! )
-The Gorgouls are tombstones with wings! (nice concept)
-Fixers Gremlins
-Sword to Genies

I sure there much more. But the point is simple:
They did a huge change!
And yes, change is better.
Look at Haven. H3 Haven (Castle, there) and H5 Haven are almost the same!
-Same creatures (Peasants and Pikemen are almost the same, just peasants are less boarding! )
-Same hero type.
-Same basic concept.
-Same terrain exactly with nothing new! even that Sylvan is allready there...

And there's almost nothing new!
(And don't say: "The design" because it's just because the pass from 2D to 3D )
(I can count how many peoples will say "The design" on purpose).

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted December 11, 2006 08:34 PM
Edited by Elvin at 23:25, 11 Dec 2006.

I can't say I prefer the new concept but it is certainly refreshing.I'm glad to have played this particular incarnation of academy even though I probably like better the other two.Just a few things:
You actually like the gargoyles?
With good wizard you can win any battle?(...)
I hate to say it but they are still underpowered if even a little.That doesn't change the fact I like them but...
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Shauku83
Shauku83


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posted December 11, 2006 11:05 PM

I agree with Elvin. They feel sometimes underpowered when facing the opponents army, but there are several reasons for it. The most crucial creature levels 5 & 6 (4 is also, but every faction shines here). Level 5 is a very, very very good damage dealer, and the Dark magic has nasty surprises in its sleeve. Usually they die soon...thats because they are a must target for the opponent. So you can use it to your advantage as well. Thank god for mini-artifacts and consume artifact, they just may raise again for opponents surprise

Level 6 has initiative of 8, so it takes a while for it to get its first turn, in addition to that it uses its first turn to Dash. In the meantime, Paladins or any high morale & initiative creatures have acted several times. Meaning the rest of the army might not be there anymore. In anycase, Djinns may cast Haste on them, you may build init. artifacts  for him etc. So the solution is often in the mini-artifacts. But as you know, they are very expensive.

Before them (and after too) you should rely on Magic. To cast magic effectively, you need forces that can endure hitting. Therefore your level 2&3 are very precious. I have but recently come to understand the value of Gargoyles...they actually are very important for the advancement of normal Wizards (Havez has alternative way though ) Don't hesitate to build those Mage Guilds with skills in Magic, they will ensure that the opponent regrets an early encounter

Anyways, I love playing them. And getting those Titans is a JOY.

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted December 11, 2006 11:34 PM

Quote:

Before them (and after too) you should rely on Magic. To cast magic effectively, you need forces that can endure hitting. Therefore your level 2&3 are very precious. I have but recently come to understand the value of Gargoyles...they actually are very important for the advancement of normal Wizards (Havez has alternative way though ) Don't hesitate to build those Mage Guilds with skills in Magic, they will ensure that the opponent regrets an early encounter

Anyways, I love playing them. And getting those Titans is a JOY.


Ah yes,amazing critters.Against druid elders they shine! Especially their upgrade and a hp+speed artifact makes them crazy tanks/melee blockers.

Titans are not just JOY,they are affordable too! YAY!! Add init+luck arties for lots of fun!

Hope 2.1 will decrease their rare resource costs!
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GenieLord
GenieLord


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posted December 12, 2006 09:46 AM

If you know how to use them, they aren't underpowered...
I never felt that they're too weak.
But if you say so...

And Elvin, I think that different is better.
And I like the Gargoyle.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted December 12, 2006 09:52 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 09:53, 12 Dec 2006.

Hey, I like the gargs too! Well, perhaps their flying animation is a bit stupid, but their appearance is perfectly OK for me ;p

Besides.. guys, they aint too good against druid elders, these dudes can still own them with stone spikes >_>

They are among the best tanks in the game with stats and growth, though.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted December 12, 2006 02:34 PM

What I usually don't understand is the fact that many people have a problem with "resources" (except gold). I mean especially tier 7s (Titans, etc)... why? with a Resource Silo, you get +1 gems (whatever) per day, man! Counting the "growth" is only 2 Titans per 7 days, you will gain 3 gems per week. That's actually an increase... so why do you have problems with resources instead of growth?

Anyway, I may be a bit different but I'm on the side "Academy is overpowered". Let me explain:

1) Most say Gremlins are weak. Ok, they probably are AGAINST tier 7s.. why don't you look at Skeleton Archers (ranged attackers too, that's why I compare with them). Gremlins have a higher initiative (upgraded, of course), same damage, more hit points (+1 more), and... yep, you have the same growth. (which by the way, in my opinion growth is the prob. not the resources)

2) Obsidian Gargoyles. Tough strategies... they are probably very weak for damage, but they are STRATEGICALLY strong... it's not like you have another Golem (which decreases the strategies if you have 2 units which excel in the same tactic). They are very good for defending Mages, VERY good for blocking enemy archers/ranged attackers... and they are even Immune to 3 elements, and have the most hit points of all tier 2s. What's more, they also have Initiative 10 and a very high speed, combined with their flying abilitiy.. Enemy archers will certainly shoot only once if they are accessible by Obsidian Gargs... who cares they don't damage well? For strategies they are good! Just look at those stupid Zombies or Horned Overseers, which aren't THAT bad as some people believe, but they are certainly MUCH weaker than Obsidian Gargs (and growth is ALMOST the same) and compare then!

3) Steel Golems: very tough tier 3s, in comparison with Squires, they do a LOT more damage, and have Unlimited Retaliation. What's more, the 75% magic protection ensures they aren't terminated quick by some fancy spell like Implosion, making them durable till they get their chance to attack. The stats of these creatures are quite overpowered, and their abilities are made as if they are weaker than Minotaurs. Minotaurs just have a fancy more hit points. But Steel Golems have better Defense values, and the 75% magic protection speaks for itself. Furthermore, Gremlins (as if not already tough) can repair these golems.. And before patch 1.04, they could have done it forever.

4) Mages: the most powerful casters seen, which is frustrating in my opinion. Wizards are not the most talented in magics, at least in most fantasy themes. Warlocks, Druids and Sorcerers should be just as powerful. Wizards rely on Intelligence while Druids and Sorcerers on Wisdom. Back to the point: they have VERY good masteries of their spells, seeing that a Druid (fewer growth) has absolutely NO MASTERY for the Stone Spikes, while the Mage's Fireball has. That's annoying, and their hit points are not as low as one might think, especially given they are +1 more than Druids per week. Furthermore, they have no range penalty, making their attacks very good, even at close range since they shoot in a line damaging all creatures. I know it hits friendly units too, but seriously with good strategies you avoid that pretty easy. And they do pretty high damage, because of their no range penalty (and when they shoot 2 or more creatures, be sure that they inflict very high damage).

5) Djinns. Undoubtely these are overpowered, especially given the building which boosts their growth by +2. As it was not enough, it also gives a (WOW) 500 gold per day bonus, which is attainable by having BOTH the Estates ability and the Sack of Endless gold artefact. But as units they are also very tough. Their low hit points are compensated by their high damage! Believe it or not, if you compare it with other tier 5s, you'll find they are not "stats" underpowered... low hit points but High damage, which can be a very good gain when well strategies are planned. Also, they fly. And furthermore, the most powerful ability they have: Unlimited mana.. Who cares the "spells" are unpredictable?!? They are CAST on "surprisingly" advanced level, and with their unlimited mana that makes them almost (if not really) the most powerful casters around, for tier 5s of course.. And the high damage + flying speaks for itself, even if the hit points are not too appealing, however, that doesn't mean to make it excel in both melee and spells, which the Djinn does... that's what annoys me

6) Rakshashas: very powerful units.. Initiative 8 is compensated by their "Dash" ability. They have VERY good hit points, remember that an Wraith (who costs more) has a lot less hit points, and that it deals almost the same damage. Wraiths may have "harm touch", but Rakshashas have No enemy Retaliation, which in my opinion is more powerful if you have 8 or more Rakshashas, which isn't too hard to reach.. Dash is here a "bonus" besides the Wraiths..

7) Titans: The titans are (surprisingly) the "fairest" creatures I have encountered in Academy (meaning they are not too overpowered for their price)... Their damage may be high, but they have not many hit points (almost like Devils which, by the way, are WAY too underpowered beside Angels, which is shocking since they cost MORE). Also Call Lightning is pretty weak, nonetheless it is very useful when you Siege or when the Titan is blocked by a creature (and you don't want to attack it). Also their No melee Penalty makes them as good as a dragon at close range.

Last but not least, the Artificier skill is the most powerful around. That's because you really get to "use" your resources.. and you get to upgrade and improve your creatures, even with major artefacts... Seeing that I usually have around 15 resources of each kind per week, I don't see this as a problem. Much tougher than that poor "Gating", for example, which Nival finally realized it was time to improve the other factions, and make Academy weaker (see patch 1.04 balance changes).

Seriously, in the Duel mode, how many of you have beaten that "Jhora" with her powerful meteor shower and Steel Golems? (I mean not against the computer but against a human, which has better strategies)... Also, in the Duel "Deleb" is also a bit overpowered, seeing that poor guy Nymus over there to compare.


Sorry for this LOOOOONG post... just my 2 cents
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Elvin
Elvin


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Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted December 12, 2006 05:28 PM

Druids don't need a stone spike mastery when they have it in lightning which is a lot more useful and damaging than fireball.Hence the lower growth.Not to mention unupgraded mages have 18hp.

About golems I agree.But minotaurs get two attacks,they just have a different function.Same for squires.You don't use them to fight.

What about djinns?Are you serious?Check their death rate!They just get 3 spells that cannot be learned by eagle eye and often cast the same spell on the same target more than once.It doen not excell in either of melee or magic.More like a weak jack-of-all-trades.

Rakshasas.Sure they are good but bloody expensive.Check resource costs.I usually skip golems to get them in week 2 and that hurts.

[Devils underpowered?They have other advantages and I'm not speaking about their stats/abilities]

Artificer+most powerful...Does not compute...
Poor+gating...Imminent breakdown...
Made+academy+weaker=wtf??? It was worse since 1.0 by a lot.
Poor guy Nymus+unbeatable jhora=You are actually serious,right?

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TheDeath
TheDeath


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with serious business
posted December 12, 2006 06:26 PM

About the Jhora -- I'm talking about the Duel hero, please I wasn't offensive..

Rakshasha's cost LESS than Wraiths, but look at the stats and their abilities, you'll find out they are tougher.

Also, Advanced mastery for the Djinn is the overpowered thing -- think they will cast Confusion on your ranged attackers or Weakness (esp. Marksmen).. at confusion 90% of creatures won't damage!

Minotaurs double attack but they inflict less damage than Steel Golems, and the double attack is performed after the target retaliates -- also their defense is very poor.

Devils underpowered -- or rather Archangels overpowered. I don't know what's what, but an Archdevil costs 4666 gold:

Attack: 31
Defense: 29
Damage: 36-66
Hit Points: 199
Speed: 7
Init: 11

Archangel, costs 4200 gold (difference is 400 gold! more than a vampire lord):

Attack: 31
Defense: 31
Damage: 50-50   < only weakest spot
Hit Points: 220
Speed: 8
Init: 11

So, Defense is higher, hit points are higher, speed is higher, and ressurect allies is more powerful than Summon Pit Lords because the army will be available after the battle, and also it doesn't require that a stack dies completely. And remember the resources for the Archangel and for the Archdevil -- yup, Archangels are the cheapest tier 7 creature (with exception of the Bone dragon, of course).


And about the Djinns, which Tier 5 do you think is better? Djinns have poor hit points, but sure the HIGHEST damage, and you get the MOST growth of all tier 5s. They also fly, of course, which is a good point for siege. Of course you may attack them, but their speed also enables them to be the first to strike -- and believe me, 90 Djinns kill a WHOLE LOT of units for a tier 5 creature. And also given their "random" spells, I believe they cast them on the highest mastery on average than other mages. But look, the Archlich has almost same hit points as the Djinn (a bit more, yes), but less damage.. and his spells are limited by mana, plus it's very slow when his ammo is out. I don't say that Djinns are best in all areas -- simply they are much better than say, Hunters (only 10 hit points for tier 3 creature)..

Why did I compare hunters with djinns? because both are weak in hit points for their tier.. but the Djinn is certainly superior for it's large growth and high damage, plus the unlimited spells on Advanced mastery.


and Lightning Bolt for the druids is poor when you have many of them. And it's still only Advanced like the Djinn -- just because it's destructive and it has "obvious" effects doesn't mean it's better than dark magic. Believe me, confusing 90% of shooters with a non-caster unit (djinn) is certainly a pain.
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TowerLord
TowerLord


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Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted December 12, 2006 06:39 PM

the problem for academy is that the faction doesn't have things very clear... it lacks a true strategy of dealing big amounts of damage . the troops are decent, some of them are really good , but when the opposing hero has +10 attack / + 10 defense there's no way they can compete with the opponent troops ... having implosion + motw would be a great way to put your opponent to sleep, but there are some problems here too : first - there are high chances you don't get implosion , second - they have tp waste a turn for the mark , and that might prove fatal , third - they don't have the impressive spellpower of the warlock . other lvl 4-5 spells like meteor shower are area spells , and so they don't work with wizard's mark ...

the good part about this town, is that they have much more tanks than dungeon, so that buys them more time to cast spells... and also they have huge knowledge and can make use of it to perform some really nice tricks (double puppets , double phantoms , double resurections and so on).

but relying on some tricks to win the game for you is not really that great ... and also , those tricks can be countered ... still academy can prove to be a very tough opponent for dungeon , since it has many ways of countering dmg ( many abilities + mini-arts + resistant crits + counterspell) , and can hit back the lowish hp dungeon crits with spells of its own!

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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted December 12, 2006 06:46 PM

Hey,

I was talking about the units being overpowered, not the hero. Please don't confuse -- you can as well "hire" that other hero and your units will be tough -> if the hero is a weak spot of academy, this doesn't mean the units should "cheat" in abilities and such (i mean for their price).

Like I said, you can hire that other hero and use academy troops. Hero is not concern, units are. I agree Warlocks are super-tough spell-casters, but Academy has much more mana -- especially warlock wastes mana quick with Empowered Spells.
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TowerLord
TowerLord


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Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted December 12, 2006 07:04 PM

Quote:
Hey,

I was talking about the units being overpowered, not the hero. Please don't confuse -- you can as well "hire" that other hero and your units will be tough -> if the hero is a weak spot of academy, this doesn't mean the units should "cheat" in abilities and such (i mean for their price).

Like I said, you can hire that other hero and use academy troops. Hero is not concern, units are. I agree Warlocks are super-tough spell-casters, but Academy has much more mana -- especially warlock wastes mana quick with Empowered Spells.


The troops are good , not overpowered... but the game is about , the combination of heroes and troops , and if the heroes aren't good , the troops won't win on their own. You cannot hire a hero , from necropolis, dungeon or inferno cause they will give you bad morale! so if you can use only knights or rangers , if they come in the tavern in the first days... but that means you will give up a speciality and a racial skill, and that is not really nice .
So you have to stick with wizards, which are not so bad, but they simply don't connect very good with the troops(att/def wise) , and also they aren't the almighty implosionists like the warlocks !

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted December 12, 2006 07:47 PM

Actually summoning pitlords is what gives an edge to archdevils.Each can summon up to 2 pitlords(usually behind the lines) which can gate too.Nymus can have 7 stacks of them in duel,try it out!

I was referring on the same Jhora but I find her far from uber.Actually she is my favourite hero!

And for djinns the only time they held on their own,they had +def artie and arcane armour.Just because they weren't targetted in the first turn,where I usually lose 1/3 of them in a big battle.Only if you manage to amass them you can do something but they fall like flies before they can get any attacks(if they attack first they are as good as gone) and you barely get the 3 castings.
No unlimited castings either.Just 3 Doesn't get confusion as often so it's hit and miss most of the time.

As for druids the mages can become better only when upgraded.In their basic forms there is no contest,especially if you split them.Fist or lightning?Though fist helps with golems.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted December 12, 2006 08:09 PM

Hey, didn't know Djinns can only cast 3 spells. My apologise then... so perhaps they're not so overpowered like I said

You know, I think I forgot Nymus is the guy with the summoning-stuff. But he's still underpowered (army-wise) than other heroes, especially Deleb; though probably that's because Nymus "cheats" at the abilities (impossible to have so many at level 15 ).

Yeah, but the Ressurect Allies of the Archangels does 100 Healing power, so it's almost like a Pit Lord (in fact, it's exactly like an Wraith, tier 6 creature too). So I guess I'll have to vote for the Archangels are overpowered thing.

Overpowered not in the sense they are necessary stronger than Devils (they may as well be the same "challenge"), but this comes at a cheaper price.. That's what annoys me about Archangels. And in fact about Haven in general (see Paladin which is tougher or comparable to Wraith/Rakshasha, but costs ONLY 1550 gold, like a Pit Fiend, no way: the price is too low!).
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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted December 12, 2006 08:22 PM

Yes,yes ubival loves haven... At least they'll fix it now in 1.5/2.1.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted December 12, 2006 08:24 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 20:28, 12 Dec 2006.

Devils weak? buahahahha! Devils expensive? buahahah rotfl. Devils are one of the easier creatures to get and their damage is more than excellent (i usually get much more damage than with any other tier7 save black dragons). 11 Initiative and the best special of all level 7s, do I need more?I don't think so.

Archangels special overpowered? ROTFL. It's weak, very, very weak. Angels/Archangels suck, suck, SUCK. Ask TowerLord if you don't believe me, he is a very good haven player and he doesn't use angles because they and their special SUCKS. haven's power is not in the archangels, no no no

I agree that Arch Devils' dwelling should be a bit more cheap, though ~~ But resources ain't a problem for deleb. But the basic dwelling is very very cheap.

cheap Titans' dwelling was made to balance out academy's weakness, since titans weren't possible to get before 1.3. Titans are now the easiest to get, and that is ok, since they are no challenge to i.e. infernal hero using excruciating strike.

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Ted
Ted


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posted December 12, 2006 08:35 PM
Edited by Ted at 20:35, 12 Dec 2006.

Devils weak: yes
Devils Expensive: yes

Archangels underpowered? perhaps, there very good, resurrection only availible once, a slight snag, Fallen Angels are 10x better than Arch, the life drain effect is far to overpowered for a level 7, level 4 with vampire is fine,

Titans dwelling cheap: Yes (cant really argue, 12000 and only a few rources, am a real bargain hunter me)

although it would be nice to have exterior dwellings to buy UPGADED UNITS, period and Haven Renegade
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted December 12, 2006 08:42 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 20:45, 12 Dec 2006.

Perhaps we play another game. Wake up, Devils are not weak. It's not h3. They top all the creatures save black dragons in damage, they have average hp, better-than-average initiative and the best (for me >_> level 7 special. And unupgraded devils are among the strongest un-upg level 7s. And the best part: You can get them in MP game. ~~

Expensive? What's expensive in them? I never got any problem in getting their dwelling up in week 2-3. Do that with shadow dragons.. or bone dragons.. or green dragons.. or fire dragons.. ; o damn, get black dragons in ordinary multiplayer game.. unless the map is rich you will never get them. Period.

Ressurection special is crap. It sounds leet only to noobs

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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted December 12, 2006 08:59 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 21:01, 12 Dec 2006.

Now please don't just say "it sucks sucks sucks".. base your opinions on something.

From the stats, what can you tell me about the Devils that's stronger than the Archangels (Archdevils, of course).. firstly, if Ressurect Allies is crap, Summon Pit Lords is crap too, it doesn't make too many hit points (I know it ressurects 2 Pit Lords, but you need to have a dead stack, and those Pit lords won't be available after the battle, and their low initiative might make them useless until the army is defeated).

Second: you are certainly underestimating the Ressurection spell, except Archangels don't even reduce target HP by 10%...

so, what's tougher in Archdevils than in Archangels? I didn't compare them with Dragons, but with Haven. The damage may be good for Archdevils, but note it's still "minimum" lower than the Archangel's, and look at the hit points (and the Archangel's too), and then say "archangels are weak weak weaaaaaaak).

Ressurect Allies is weak?!? then Raise Dead is much weaker -- you obviously never played Necro? Believe me, 2 Angels can ressurect 1 Devil, and I wouldn't call that "weak", if you say Devils are so tough.

Just because you attack quick with devils doesn't make them the toughest tier 7.. that makes "inferno" the quick and dirty faction -- please note the unit "Devil" is not tough.

P.S. for those "experienced" in internals, notice that Archangels have more "power" than Archdevils.. power is used by the AI to know how powerful a creature is, and if it should avoid combat or not. And supposedly Nival also thinks Archangels are tougher than Archdevils, but they cost less gold.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted December 12, 2006 09:15 PM

oh God, think whatever you want, think peasants are the best creature, I don't damn care. Just ask someone experienced in playing haven and you'll hear the same. Archangels are weak, they are redundant, all the cash goes to buy marksmen+paladins, the remaining gold goes for inquisitors. My opinion is based on gaming experience, not some "oh leet numbers" thing. I play inferno and I use devils - as most of us inferno players do. Haven players never use archangels (or almost never). Is it really that hard to figure which unit is more worthy in a MP game? I guess not.

Ah yes, Archangels weekly damage: 205, 10 initiative
Archdevils: 210, 11 initiative.

So don't say they are weaker.

And I don't care about Nival's powercharts, they mean totally nothing. They are rubbish

About the specials: Summon pitlord is powerful. You can convert crappy unit that is out of use in combat after doing something (let's say familiars after the mana drain) into a potent and powerful stack. This has simply more uses than ressurection. And who cares about that it disappears after the battle? In a big battle, the winner is the usual winner of the game,who cares what happens after the victorious battle?

aww, regards, my tone is as always whiny (or even a bit offensive ~~) but don't care for it, I always write that way and I don't mean any offends

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