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| Thread: Inferno unites And Necros should they mix? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 07, 2001 12:49 PM |
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Hmm i was just thinking (strange but true) if you would be able to buy the imps and then shove them in a skeleton maker imagine the army you could make of skeletons.This probably wont be added of course but its a nice thought.
Or how about if they died in battle you could raise them as skeletons that would be great too.
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darkspirit
Famous Hero
aka Zutus
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posted October 07, 2001 03:54 PM |
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Damn, what are those 'writing those long posts' talking about. This thread is just about the fact that undead shouldn't be mixed with inferno-creatures, maybe only for the fact that you are mixing undead with living creatures and that makes no sense!!!
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Young moles appear to be in full dispersal which means there are more moles per acre than at any other time of the year
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darkspirit
Famous Hero
aka Zutus
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posted October 07, 2001 03:58 PM |
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you know, I'm starting to think (and hope) that 3DO is playing a trick with us. I don't think they are that dumb to mix those creatures. Making zombies, vampires,... neutrals and adding inferno's feels so wrong, i think they realize that too, so they changed it. (once more, I hope they did this, not sure)
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Young moles appear to be in full dispersal which means there are more moles per acre than at any other time of the year
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted October 07, 2001 04:21 PM |
bonus applied. |
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just found someone who likes to say that i am stupid and prove it by blatantly distorting the words (and taking them out of the context) on some theological web site. including topics like opinion about using the christian interpretation of satanism in homm4.
to summarize: imho inferno and necro are distinctly different, and also the placement of towns with creatures that are associated with some religions is very subjective and from the one-sided point of view of christian fantasy. also, i don't think the undead would find it reasonable not to kill the inferno creatures, but imho this is less of a problem than popularization of putting inferno and necro together from the religious point of view.
unfortunately, a more sophisticated religious interpretation seems too irrational to be implemented sucessfully as a computer game imho.
he may summarize his own position himself, if he wants.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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Preserver
Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
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posted October 07, 2001 04:41 PM |
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3DO didn't decide the placements of angels and devils. As many other things, they took it from Magic: The Gathering. They switched some creatures, but generally they used almost similar line-ups. The most common creatures according to the alignments in MtG are (I may have forgot some):
 Blue - Island - Similar to Academy
humans and flyers
Wizards
Drakes (blue ones)
Birds
Merfolk
Genies
Illusions
Djinns
 White -Plains - Similar to Haven
humans
Soldiers
Clerics
Spirits
Knights
Angels
Griffins
Unicorns
 Green - Forest - Similar to Preserve
elves and animals
Elves
Sprites
Wolves
Apes
Centaurs
Dryads
Treefolk
Trolls
Beasts
Elementals
Elephants
Giant Spiders
Basilisks
Giant Wurms
 Red - Mountain - Similar to Asylum
greenskinned and monsters
Goblins
Orcs
Minotaurs
Red Dragons
Kavus
Lizards
 Black - Swamp - Similar to Necropolis
undead and demons
Skeletons
Rats
Zombies
Devils
Demons
Horrors
Imps
Harpies
Carriers
Nightmares
Artifacts
machines and magic items
Golems
Gnomes (mechanical)
Machines
and other things...
Going after this (I know Academy doesn't mach, but it's a follow up to H3 Tower), 3DO has no other choise, than putting demons and undead in the same alignment (which only seems strange to H3 players, because they are used to Inferno as an independend line-up)...
And Darkspirit:
You could say 3DO has played a trick on you if they told you vampire and zombie are going to be neutral. The line-up probably looks like this:
1: Imp
1: Zombie
2: Cerberus
2: Ghost
3: Venom Spawn
3: Vampire
4: Devil
4: Bone Dragon
This means you can make an undead army:
Zombie
(imps: don't buy them)
Ghost
Vampire
Bone Dragon
+Skeletons
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- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted October 07, 2001 09:24 PM |
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Gerdash,
"why do you think it was the pagans, etc, rather than christians (who were the vast majority) who started to call them satanists, at least in europe? "
99% of pagans do not call themselves satanists. It's true that there are still some christians who incorrectly call these pagans satanists, but that is another issue.
The problem is the 1% of pagans who have almost identical traditions to the other pagans who decided to call themselves satanists. They did for no good reason except to upset every other religion, both traditional and pagan. And they wonder why people don't respect them.
"'Such definitions create great confusion, and stir up religious animosity against followers of benign faith traditions.'
all that they are trying to say is that the statements by christian fundamentalists, etc, are misleading, not that the name of the religion itself is misleading. "
You are taking that quote way out of context. They are not talking about followers of the church of satan, they are talking about followers of other non christian religions who some conservative christians still incorrecly refer to as satanists. The church of satan however call themselves satanists, and thus they are the ones responsible for stirring up animosity towards them.
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and imho what nwc is trying to do seems sth like:
"by interpreting those religions as an opposition of life and death, and putting the inferno and necro together, and that seems not only cheap and commercial imho, but also supports misinterpretation of satanism the way conservative christians have been doing it for centuries. "
Ok, this is where you are completely wrong. The necropolis contains demons and devils. People who call themselves satanists do not believe in demons and devils. It is not part of their religion. Thus the necropolis has nothing to do with them. It in no way promotes misunderstanding. This is why I say you don't really understand the religion, you act like they really believe in and worship demons and devils when in fact they do not. So the necropolis has no bearing on them at all.
"also, do you think it would insult the christians (it's not only about the angel that they look christian to me) or the christianism type religions (if you want to look at it in more general way) if they were placed in the order town? or anything else than life? "
Nope, I don't. I think order would be perfectly reasonable for angels and the like too. And certainly for humans. By the way, I suspect many of the other religions you are refering to would be quite insulted if you called them "christianism type religions". You really don't seem to know much at all about religion.
"also, imho the christians justify violence if it's for the right purpose, or even say that in that case it's not violence. as far as i know, violence is violence in satanism, although it does not need justification the way the christians see it. i have also said that the order in the society is largely based on the christian views, and i have not said that it's bad. on the other hand, if you want a way to force order while saying that ppl must not harm each other, the logical way is to justify violence in some cases, i.e. from the point of view of the order that is considered perfect and supreme. but imho it is way overboard to say that christianism is perfect (i am not saying that satanism is). "
Wow you really seem to love going completely off topic in these discussions. What exactly ware you trying to say here?
"and i think i expressed my opinion about demons in quite a clear way: they are visions that reflect states of mind, more precisely, the state of functional parts of an individual's mind and body, sth like the speech that can be understood, and the meaning of those visions can be put into use to improve mental and physical health and to develop a better understanding of a person's so-called 'inner self.' sth like a form of guidance that has developed during the evolution to guide the human in the choice of healthy and unhealthy paths.
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The fact that you consider that to be expressed in a quite clear way is scary. However I guess I should cut you some slack here as english may not be your native language. But anyway i get the sense that you like to imagine demons in a symbolic since even though you don't believe in them or something like that. While that may be interesting, it has no bearing on this religious discusion.
"ok, just to say it again, although i think it would be nice if inferno and necro were in different towns, i can also look at their present placement probably being tolerable from the point of view of the christian fundamentalism of the medieval times (or at least sth similar), considering that homm is a medieval fantasy game. "
Well homm is a fantasy game not a medieval game. The christian religion does not exist in it, and demons and devils are fantastic creatures from another dimension that exist and attack things. It has nothing to do with view points, it has to do with the reality of the game world.
You do realize the inferno was always about evil and death in Homm3 as well.
Oh and as a final questin for you Gerdash out of curiosity since you may know more about the satanism religion then I do. Do satanists believe in the threefold rule?
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted October 07, 2001 09:57 PM |
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Quote:
Whoops sorry if I didn't join the satanism debate on this... what I really think is that when you change the town name into underworld, it won't sound satanic at all...it's more like the Greek myth type of design, where there's an underworld with Hades(instead of Satan)being the boss on the block.
one difference though... while Satan is considered to be the ultimate Evil, Plutonas, the ruler of Hades, was just a force of nature... no more evil or good than the other gods... just unlucky enough to rule the land of the dead... Hades was not Hell.. the closest thing to Hell was Tartarus.. a place of punishment and imprisonment... Hades was just the place where dead people went...
BTW: I don't wish to be involved in a "gerdash/niteshade" discussion either...
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted October 07, 2001 10:33 PM |
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"BTW: I don't wish to be involved in a "gerdash/niteshade" discussion either... "
hehe, well I must admit it is completely off topic, and if the moderators want to tell us to shut up I will have no problem with that. I do find it an interesting discussion myself though, though sometimes it can be quite frustrating trying to communicate with Gerdash, presumably due to a language barrier (assuming English is not in fact his primary language).
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted October 08, 2001 12:30 AM |
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hey, don't get me wrong...
I like a good conversation/confrontation as much as the next guy.... i just don't want to throw myself in a series of meaningless posts and counter-posts... your debate with gerdash is a most refreshing one... just not my style...
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted October 08, 2001 10:43 PM |
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Gerdash
"your statement about me going off topic in my post was referring to my answer to your description about my views on religions.. hmm.. thanks for the attempt to explain what i think, but i just felt it would need some minor correction. "
Well you stated your views on religion, and I may even agree with some of them. But it does not change the fact that you are certainly showing as much lack of religious tolerence towards christianity and other traditional religions as you accuse me of showing towards satanism.
"but about us going off topic from the point of view of the topic of this thread, i don't think we need to worry about it at all. i have read some older threads and even if our discussion was off topic, i think it's nothing compared to what i have seen in those older threads. but i would appreciate if i could answer you in bit shorter posts, i.e. imho the range of topics we are discussing may be bit wider than is comfortable imho. "
hehe, well I agree with you here. At least we mention HoMM occasionaly in our discussion  .
"imho when the vast majority started to use the word 'satanism' for both the pagan religions and some christian sects that were at least not necessarily so evil at all, the word 'satanism' became meaningful in that sense and started to "live a life of it's own."
The thing is that the vast majority never started to use the term satanism for pagan religions and christian sects. Only a small minority used that term. Not enough to give that word a life of it's own as you say. And the people who they used to term to describe were generaly very offended by it because it was incorrect.
" even if the satanists renamed themselves, i would still call them 'satanists'. "
here I have 2 points to make....
1)There are already many people with identical beliefs to the "satanists" who do not call themselves satanists. Does that mean that you will call them satanists as well? Because if you do they will most likely be offended, and consider you just as bad as any of the minority conservative christian groups that call them that.
2) If the "satanists" stopped calling themselves satanists, you would never be able to figure out who they were any more because there would be nothing left to distniguis them from any other pagan group. So you would not be able to figure out who they were to still call them satanists.
"you say that the satanists insult every religion that has a concept of evil in it.. if the christians do not (at least did not) respect pagans, associate them with profound evil and persecute them, it would be unreasonable to expect that the more rebellious pagans would lay down flat and say 'thanks.' imho the fact that the satanist religion has not disappeared yet isn't sth the satanists should be accused for. "
The current "satanist" religion is extremely young. Chances are there are people on these boards who are older then this religion. The religion was started long after the time when most christians persecuted pagans . So they cannot use this as a justification for their religious name. As for the satanist religion not disapearing, of course it hasn't. It's brand new. There is no yet.
"also, as far as i understand, the satanists are opposed to moralistic rules present in most religions (imho there are some exceptions) and prefer sth like common sense to those rules. what they allow is forbidden as profound evil in most religions. imho they are pointing out the weak points in those religions, and especially trying to prove that what is considered to be the embodyment of evil in those religions, is actually sth quite normal, or maybe even superior to the moralistic rules of those religions. also, in that sense, 'satanism' seems to be a good word for the religion. "
Well here you prove my point that satanists tend to be worse then most christians when it comes to religious intolerence and love to "point out weak points" in other religions. However what they believe in is no different then what other pagan religions believe in, most of whom predate the "satanists" and felt no need to call themselves satanists. And really on by a very major stretch can you call what they believe an embodiment of evil in other religions.
"if ppl who call themselves satanists don't believe in demons and devils the way the chistians do, does not mean they don't believe in them. e.g. i believe in demons, i believe that the demons are visions created by my mind, i.e. they are real and very meaningful visions."
Yes, but your beliefs are not the same as the beliefs of satanists. I don't believe even "satanists" officialy use traditional demonic imagery. Sure there might be individuals among them who like it anyway, but that doesn't mean anything. Remember you own beliefs do not equate into a worldwide religion. This was the whole thing that made me accuse you of not knowing much about their religion, because you are really misrepresenting them on this issue.
"but actually, what i do not like in the nwc interpretation is that they sound like every teenage "true satanist" should go and dig up some graves tonight. imho this is not correct at all. "
What are you talking about? There are no satanists in the necropolis. But even if they were I would have no problem with them being depicted as horrible evil people. Afterall the religion obviously wants to be depicted that way or they would not have chosen that name.
"that's right, i have invented this 'christian type religions' thing myself, referring to all moralistic religions, and chistianism seems to be the most famous among them. so it may have seemed a bit vague."
I actually don't think christianity is the most widespread worldwide moralistic religion.
" but please tell me in what sense does it indicate that i don't know much about religion? i do think i recognize an emphasis on moral in some religions, and emphasis on what is right and what is wrong, and i don't think a thorough knowledge in religion is needed for that. "
Yes every traditional religion and some pagan religions have an emphasis on morality. However the fact that you use the term "christian like religions" to refer to everything from christianity to judaism, to islam, to buddhism, to shamanistic traditions show a complete lack of understanding of religion. Many people in these religions would be quite offended by that comparison, and you seem quite clueless about that.
"*shooting from behind the language barrier* although i have no idea what the threefold rule means.. certainly they do! ..or maybe they do not. actually, i am more interested in satanism as long as they believe in common sense. if the threefold rule is part of common sense, at least if the stanists think so, the answer is 'yes,' of course. i don't think they believe in it the way the christians interpret the word 'believe,' as far as i have seen the word 'believe' interpreted here (assuming it corresponds to the christian interpretation). at least i don't think they worship the threefold rule as a living deity. "
Ok.....I'm sure you must know of the threefold rule if you know anything at all about paganism. Perhaps you just heard it called something else. It is one of the most key rules of all pagan religions, and it refers primarily to their magic and ritual beliefs.
Specificaly the threefold rule states that you can feel free to use magic to cause harm to others, but any harm you do will be revisited on you three times as much. Thus there is a price to pay for all power.
"Satanists" follow almost the exact same religion wiccans do, but they have more of an emphasis on harmful magic. I was just curious if they still believed in this rule.
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted October 08, 2001 11:52 PM |
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"where have i *accused you* of showing little tolerance towards satanism? i have accused you of trying to prove that i am stupid by twisting the meaning of what you quote."
Perhaps I misspoke there. At the very least you have implied that it is bad to show little tolerence towards satanism. And in fact if you had accused me of showing little tolerence towards it you would be right. My point is that both you and the satanism religion show similar intolerence to other religions.
"i don't think i recall much about the threefold rule rightnow, at least abou it being threefold. i think i rather recall sth like you cannot expect it to be fulfilled. "
Hmm....I'm surprised you have never heard of it. Even if the satanists don't believe in it, they must certainly make reference to it if just to refute it. How much exposure to pagan religions have you actualy had?
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Mikai
Adventuring Hero
A Wise Warrior
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posted October 09, 2001 09:53 AM |
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Edited By: Mikai on 9 Oct 2001
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Let's not...
...make a big religion matter out of this...I like to think that we are heroes in a world of FANTASY and every one has it's own reasons for doing so...As a hero among heroes I've seen our world like this:
1.UNDEAD - these are creatures(and some are spirits) who use to be living beeings, that NEVER reached heaven or hell...but they are caught somewhere in between life and dead...that is why they are called "undead" as they are not dead yet nor alive. They are doomed never to find their peace, wondering the Earth, struggling to survive feeding like parasites upon the living beeings with their blood, fear, flesh and thoughts. They can be manipulated, through black magic by humans or other strong undead creature...They are forming another way of existence on this planet which comes in contradiction with the Life it's self, therefore makes them our enemies...
CONCLUSION: We fight them because they feed on us.
2.INFERNO(Hell) - It's an entirely a diffrent realm than Earth where only evil souls of humans reach...It is populated by the very Fallen Angels which disagree with God's rules and contesting His supremacy. All its creatures are resident here and not pulling their roots from humans.Those are strong creatures and powerful spirits who existed long before humans.They are a distinct race (devils,imps,deamons etc.) and they are haunting and feeding upon humans pure energy souls, thats's what makes them our (humans) enemies and the fact that we swore our faith to God...
CONCLUSION: We fight them because they are the oposite and the sworened enemies of God !
Therefore I hope you will also see that the Necropolis and the Inferno defines diffrent beeings and diffrent realms.
Mikai
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Mik a'El
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted October 09, 2001 05:39 PM |
bonus applied. |
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Gerdash,
"when i say that i am not happy with nwc implementing the towns like they do for the abovementioned reasons, it does not necessarily mean that i care for your personal opinion. in fact, i consider the opinion of 'someone somewhere' about satanism rather irrelevant, especially compared to the way a popular computer game gets implemented. "
This is a discusion board, the entire point of it is personal opinions. If you don't care about them, you should not be discussing things on them. But I get the sense you realize I've proved most of your arguments wrong, so now your just saying you don't care about my opinions. It's worth noting though that as negative as my opinions are of satanists, they are probably more positive then the opinion most of the world has of them.
"when i say that i am not a satanist but i have been interested in more or less satanism-related practices for quite a while, and i think i have read more than enough about satanism to understand that particular web page. to be more precise, this includes skipping all about magic and concentrating on way of thinking without emphasis on right and wrong (i can make a statement here: imho this is the main point in satanism, and imho it is possible to do it in at least two distinctly different ways, possibly differenciating it from pagan religions)."
Well you can't skip everything about magic when looking at the satanist religon. That's like saying your going to look at the christian religion and skip everything about prayer. A huge part of the thing the satanists use to define themselves is their willingness to use "black" magic (not that their arent other older religions with the exact same beliefs who don't feel the need to use such a sensationalistic name). Magic is a huge and integral part of their religion, you can't just ignore it.
"there is no word that corresponds to 'threefold rule' in our language, and it is usually refferred to as 'karmic rule,' if i have understood you right. "
It could be the same thing, you'd have to explain what the karmic rule is to know for sure. There are certainly major karmic elements to the threefold rule.
"when i was talking about my way of believing in demons, i never said that it has anything in common with the satanists or anybody else. i said it as an imho quite nice example of believin in sth without believing that it's anything more than a vision in my mind, based on blabla. nothing that i would worship or sell my soul to or whatever."
That's fine, but then you use that as a reason why demons should not be portrayed as evil and death beings because it misrepresents satanists. But satanists don't believe the way you do, so really what you should be saying is just that you think demons are cool and should not be shown as evil. Granted I still think that is really stupid, but it's at least closer to what you really believe. Bringing up satanism at all just distorts the point.
"just to point out that when you say that if the satanists do not believe in satan the same way as the christians, they do not believe in satan at all, and imho this statement of yours is rather absurd.. i wonder why you came up with it in the first place.. to waste my time?"
We have discussed this plenty of times, and I have shot down and showed the flaws in your previous arguments about this. If you can't come up with a better argument now then "this is absurd" then don't waste my time. I restate my point.......that satanists worship the same force that every other pagan religion does. But only satanists (a very new religion) choose to use a term from another religion to describe themselves, a religion that has no relation to their owns. And they choose to use the term for no reason other then it sounds really cool and edgey, and gives them the right to persecute and discriminate against other religions. I can name my pet cat satan as well, that doesn't mean I am correct in saying that he really is the real satan.
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted October 09, 2001 08:58 PM |
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"at least i guess those ppl who said that the pagans, etc, worshipped satan were on the position of power at that time and popularized it to the large masses as much as they could.. you are saying that they had so little success that only a small minority believed them in the medieval times? "
Oh certainly the middle ages were a very bad time to be part of a pagan religion. However this has no effect on satanism, because it is a very young religion. The middle ages ended hundreds of years before it started. So they cannot use this as an excuse.
"a friend of mine joined some group who called themselves 'altruists.' one of their leaders or at least old-timers demonstrated his power on a new member by sth that would perfectly fit the definition of brainwash imho, and my friend noticed that this guy got a gray hair after that. also, i practiced an exercise of soft martial arts with him, and i may say that he did it with a perfectly satanistic attitude rather than sth corresponding to (my slight introduction to) paganism. he said that he was collecting methods to subdue ppl. when he left the group, he started to loose weight and spent quite a long time in hospital after that. now, i would rather prefder the word 'satanists' (with a gothic touch) than 'altruists' when i refer to them. do you say that those altruists should be called pagans?"
Well first off, the term pagan is a description for a type of religion not a religion itself. Now I'm assuming you call the altruists satanists because you believe they are evil. While I agree that they don't sound like the greatest bunch, using satanist to refer to any religion you consider "dark" is the same kind of thing the website was talking about ultra conservative christians doing. I do certainly think the term altruist is very deceptive though unless they truly aim to help people (the definition of altruism).
"imho the non-existence of gothic satanism is exaggerated religious tolerance on the website rather than your statement about satanism not being a correct word (well, the existence and activities of gothic satanists may be massively exaggerated in public, though). the larger and more organized satanists oppose to this kind of gothic attitude as far as i know. and even their attitude is different from what i would expect from the pagans. "
Ah well that is another matter entirely and I agree with you on this. There are people out there who still practice gothic satanism. Usualy they are just rebelious teens and the like, but I'm sure there are others. These people probably have more of a right to call themselves satanists (not that this is a good thing).
"actually, the satanists are still being persecuted, e.g. they cannot register their organizations (exception is the sethians, as far as i know), and in court they get maximum punishment (a chemistry phd student got 8 years) for synthesizing lsd. and the date when the satanists started to form public organizations is totally irrelevant when you want to date the origin of the word or even the first satanists or their groups. "
Satanists are being persecuted, but not pagans. Pagans can register their organization, and even get positive media coverage at times. The only reason satanists are persecuted is because of their name. And they chose their name themselves to create maximum shock and offence, so it's their own fault.
"actually, i havn't heard satanists saying that all ppl should be turned to their faith more than i have heard christians say that. both say that they at least like their religion, but as far as i have seen, the christian criticism has always been more aggressive. "
I think the most conservative christian is probably more critical then the most conservative satanist. However I think the average satanist is more likely to descriminate against other religions then the average christian. Of course everyone hates the satanists, but as I said above that is primarily because of the name they chose (except in the case of gothic satanists, people probably have a good reason to hate them).
"widespread is not necessarily equal to famous as far as i know."
Well your viewpoint is kind of eurocentric there. The religions that are more widespread then christianity are quite famous in their parts of the world.
"another distortion of the original. also, just in case you meant it that way: i have never said that i know much about religion, i have said that i know *enough* about some religions to strongly feel that the creature placement is wrong,"
But you still haven't explained why you feel demons are inapropriately placed based on satanist beliefs, considering that satanists do not believe in demons in any form. Gothic satanists may, but who cares if we misrepresent them?
"and to easily understand a simple web page meant for common ppl. btw, so far you still havn't pointed out where this "elsewhere" is located. "
What elsewhere are we talking about here? You must be refering to something I said awhile ago.
"ok, you are saying i should use 'religions with emphasis on moral and on what is right and wrong' instead of 'christian type religions' next time. but imho it makes absolutely no difference in the meaning, so i will use the shorter version."
It makes a huge difference in the meaning. Ask a buddhist what he thinks about his religion being called a christian type religion sometime. For somebody who favors religious tolerence you seem to not care about if you offend people who practice non christian religions.
"you may copy the note into your editor and you have my full permission to replace the abovementioned words with the abovementioned meaning. also, i think you sounded ridiculous here. "
I sound ridiculous because I don't think you should consider buddhism and shamanism a christian like religion? Ok if you say so........
"about the threefold rule again.. although i would not like to comment it much, as it is far from the points that i find interesting in satanism: the satanists say that you should be ready to be responsible for your actions. at the same time they have said sth about satanic protection, but i don't exactly remember in what context. the threefold rule is an abstract ad probably rather non-confirmed rule, i think i can recall that even the pagans do not have a clear agreement about the exact number of folds in this rule. and i think that some ppl in our country are talking about tenfold rule in the same context. "
I have to assume you are just making up all that stuff about the # of folds. But I sense you don't really understand the rule, and maybe language is part of the reason. So I will just let it drop. I was just curious, maybe I will ask somebody else who knows about it sometime.
"actually, i do not consider myself intolerant towards any religion. i am just not getting overly excited about any of them. maybe this is called scepticism? and satanism has never been under my special protection in any of my notes here, no matter how much you might want to read it between the lines. my personal interests are non-occultistic tantrism (or what should i call it?) and the teachings of krishnamurti atm, but literature on those subjects has been too hard to get, so i will not comment on them here. also.. hedonistic theory of aesthetics. "
Well if nothing else you certainly seem far more tolerent towards satanists then any others. But your point is duly noted.
"*lol*
now.. are you telling me what is my personal point in posting in this board. imho you are going overboard again. assume you meet a person to whom you have to explain sth as simple as 'anything that is considered real does not necessarily have to be worsipped like the christians worsip their god' at least three times while he throws false accusations at you each time, including that you don't even understand yourself what you are saying.. what would you think of this person? i would say that.. hmm.. his way of thinking is rather inflexible.. "
I would probably think that. However you seem to have completely missed what I am saying. I completely agree that 'anything that is considered real does not necessarily have to be worsipped like the christians worsip their god' My point was however that if you are going to worship something that is completely unlike anything in the christian religion, in a way completely unlike the christians worship, and that has absolutely no place in the christian religion, you shouldn't give it a christian name for no reason. The other pagans don't. So why is it that the satanists insist on it?
"again, i was talking about my opinion about demons as an example of the abovementioned blabla, not as an example of how demons should be implemented in homm4. i have said in one of my first notes sth like that demons can be quite harmonious and beautiful, but at least in the case of beauty, it depends on the attitude of the person. the quote in my signature has also nothing to do with what a satanist may consider beautiful, not to even start to discuss about the absolute validity of the statement in the signature from the point of view of more modern theory of aesthetics."
Well that's fine, but you are basing your opinion that demons are misplaced in HoMM4 on your opinion of demons, not on any religions opinion of demons. This really boils down to my original objection to your point. And demons in HoMM 4 are not depicted any differently then they are in every single other fantasy game.
"well, i guess this last point of yours is kind of answered already where i said that i would call some ppl satanists rather than altruists (and i expect you wouldn't call them real altruists either, or would you?), neither would i rather call them pagans. and this group was more than just a bunch of teenagers who call themselves satanists just for a year or two without any competence in the field, but a steady group that does not expect it's members to leave, and does not say a nice good-bye, but will attempt some nice acupuncture-like thing (btw i am not saying that they are evil, i would rather say that they have a different view of life)."
Well as I said before these people are much more similar to the traditional view of satanism. But I thought the whole original point is that the people who call themselves satanists were not supposed to be really evil? I assume they are not quite as nasty as these "altruists"?
"yeah, and if everyone calls your pet cat 'satan,' or at least has called all pet cats 'satan,' the word 'satan' will mean 'a pet cat' at least as an alternative meaning of the word. "
Well this is true, but only a very small percentage of pagans call their religion satanism. So it really doesn't paralel the everyone calling pet cats satan thing very well.
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Preserver
Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
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posted October 09, 2001 09:36 PM |
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Do you people actually read each others posts? I mean, you are replying extremely fast...  ... ...... ... ...
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- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted October 09, 2001 11:41 PM |
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"hmm.. i think i forgot to put special emphasis on the question where i asked you to point out where was the second occasion of 'satanism' being considered a misleading name, i.e. outside the context of some christians and maybe some other ppl misusing the word. one of the points you have used to prove my stupidity was that i cannot even understand the web page i came up with to support my own reasoning with some popularized theology thing. i really expect that answer.. maybe you can really read better than me, but i want to see it, especially if it has sth to do with calling me names. i don't think i can expect another long and vague discussion about it, i think i can expect a clear answer here. "
Ah, missed that one when I responded before. First off I didn't say that to "prove your stupidity" or anything like that, I simply said you needed to look at the website again because I didn't think you fully understood it. Lack of understanding does not show stupidity, I have been guilty of it before as well. There have been times when I have expressed the opinion that an idea was stupid or that you locked knowledge in certain areas but none of this means you are stupid. Granted I may not have put things as delicately as I might have.
Now to get back to your question. The website makes a big point in saying that satanists follow a diety that is nothing like the concept of satan that the vast majority of the world believes in. This was also my main point in my original argument, that their religion has nothing to do with satan and should not be called satanism. You showed me that website to disprove it, and in fact it merely made me more convinced. Thus my statement that you did not understand things. The worst was when you showed me a quote which pretty much said the exact same thing I had just said, in an attempt to disprove what i just said.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted October 10, 2001 08:34 AM |
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None of you two are making any sense anymore and none of what you have been bickering about for the last three pages has much at all to do with the actual thread.
I'd just like to say, if satanists worship a deity which is nothing like Satan, then how on earth are they called satanists?
Oh yes, by the way, there is a difference between 'undead' and 'demons from hell'. The distinction being that undead are not from hell, they are still of the material plane. I don't think either town should be combined.
*smile*
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UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
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posted October 10, 2001 10:48 AM |
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Although the discussion re satanism has been interesting, and fairly civil, might I suggest continuing it up in the Tavern on a new thread, please? Thanks.
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted October 10, 2001 05:41 PM |
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why i think that satan and the inferno units don't suit the dead is that there are many ways to be successful, and one is being distorted, but strong and grim. evolution has made human robust and able to succeed even if he chooses that path. imho this has nothing to do with returning to from underworld to drink some blood or getting your corpse animated by using some magical powers.
if the necro-like creatures were made to suit the inferno, i would rather like to see a red colored skeleton that drips of blood and is called 'tortured soul' rather than a gray colored animated skeleton or just some hungry underworld creature on earth. btw as far as i remember, the voodoo ppl believed that zombie = the person dies, but the shaman animates the body with the power of some elemental force under his command that has nothing to do with the soul of the person that died, or sth like that, if i have understood it correctly.
and.. what is this necro exactly.. a hades-like underworld on earth or a voodoo like thing?
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i think we have more or less come to an agreement with niteshade already, at least from my point of view.
the difference may be that i don't think those altruists consider themselves evil from the point of view of their lifestyle, and i didn't say they were evil in my opinion, etc, etc, etc, but that's a smaller matter compared to a hint to my illiteracy. and the point that to consider sth real it does not have to be worsipped or seen as a living deity, etc, has also been agreed upon in several previous posts, as far as i understand.. so.. imho we might even delete our posts now? well.. my posts are almost fully quoted in the answers anyway.. so i guess it wouldn't be a tragedy if i made this thread a bit shorter.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted October 10, 2001 06:24 PM |
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Well one thing you have to remember with the necropolis is the whole might and magic storyline. The devils in M&M are in fact the Kreegans, a force from another dimension or planet that is out to conqueer the world. They have always had an alliance with the necromancers in HoMM.
So basicaly what the necropolis is, is just a base camp for necromancers. They animate the dead and also forge dark alliances with the demons and devils. But the devils are really just visitors and allies, it is the necromancers that run the show.
It's not supposed to be hell on earth or anything like that, it's just supposed to be a town that specializes in necromancy and death magic and which has some rather unsavory allies.
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