|
|
sq79
Famous Hero
|
posted December 31, 2006 05:18 AM |
|
|
Quote:
In response to the last post Fortress is very strong on a resource rich map. With no resource worries they are awesome and the runes provide additional fun on top of the normal faction abilities and unit abilities. I wouldn't want to play them on a small map, in multi. The guard post helps but I see them as a large map conquerer. Thoughts?
They're great on large maps... and Ingvar is a fantastic hero for that with the +1hp every 5 level. Their level 7 magma dragons has hp of 280 and super high defence. The answer to completely kill them fast seems to be haven with precise shot  Otherwise, they're gonna wack the opponent like mad with their destructive and light (If they went for mass endurance and deflect missile)
However getting their ultimate seems to waste a slot on war machines but its good as their heroes have one of the best development in the game with high defence as well and ensure you're unlucky every hit.
Small maps, they always have destructive and runic machines+ triple ballista to help. Learn this two and its hard to take them down I feel 
|
|
Ma_trix
Adventuring Hero
Carpe Diem
|
|
posted December 31, 2006 10:41 AM |
|
|
|
Problem with their War Machines skill lies in Dwarves' developement of primal abilities - they have defence and spellpower mainly which don't influence on damage done by balista. Ant there is dillema - whether to take Balista + Runic Machines + Triple Balista (but still balista dealing low damage due to low attack/knowledge) or to take Balista + Runic Machines + Aid Ten (which is my favourite becaues it prevents one from having looses in early-to-mid game). And I totally agree that resources are key to their success.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted December 31, 2006 11:09 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Problem with their War Machines skill lies in Dwarves' developement of primal abilities - they have defence and spellpower mainly which don't influence on damage done by balista. Ant there is dillema - whether to take Balista + Runic Machines + Triple Balista (but still balista dealing low damage due to low attack/knowledge) or to take Balista + Runic Machines + Aid Ten (which is my favourite becaues it prevents one from having looses in early-to-mid game)
Primary abilities are fine.Attack and knowledge are gained 20% of the time each and with runic warmachines the damage output per round is pretty good.In 3 rounds(round I consider 10 initiative) most other factions will shoot 2 timesx3 while dwarves 3x4 which is double that.This way they offset their weak stats.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Archmage_Faiz
Disgraceful
Hired Hero
|
|
posted December 31, 2006 01:03 PM |
|
|
I think that Academy and Fortress are the strongest. And Sylvan sucks...
____________
"For those who live in the past, there is no future."
/King Darios of Persia
|
|
Dungeonian
Adventuring Hero
Supreme matriarch
|
|
posted January 01, 2007 12:42 PM |
|
|
Who is stronger and who is weaker depends from current map and difficulty . For example , Necropolis is very weak on low difficulty , but extremly powerful on high . Also it depends from everyone's favorite strategy . I usualy play large maps on Heroic , so my rating is :
1.Dungeon , of cause 
2.Necropolis
3.Fortress
4.Sylvan
5.Academy
6.Haven
7.Inferno
____________
The Darkness is the right hand of the Light , the Light is the left hand of the Darkness .
|
|
Archmage_Faiz
Disgraceful
Hired Hero
|
|
posted January 01, 2007 12:47 PM |
|
|
Quote:
6.Haven
7.Inferno
Haven and Inferno weak? Say that to Dougal and his 500 marksmen. Or to Deleb...
____________
"For those who live in the past, there is no future."
/King Darios of Persia
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted January 01, 2007 12:52 PM |
|
|
Seriously guys refrain from taking into account Deleb and Dougal.We know heroes are better than others but it's unfair when determining faction strengths.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Dungeonian
Adventuring Hero
Supreme matriarch
|
|
posted January 01, 2007 12:57 PM |
|
|
Haven has very poor start on Heroic , its low level unupgraded troops is very weak . Every dwelling needs 10 ore , so marksmen+squire for protect them from shooters appear after some weeks . Archers die in every foe vs. shooters like butterflies .
Inferno high level dwellings is extremly expensive in resourses , but not so great on battlefield , especialy pit lords cause their poor speed and initiative . Deleb is a true nightmare for any opponent on small maps , but on large ones the situation changes . Last time I'd played vs. her , my Eruina destroyed her ballista by one emprowed chain lightning
____________
The Darkness is the right hand of the Light , the Light is the left hand of the Darkness .
|
|
sq79
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 01, 2007 03:07 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Haven has very poor start on Heroic , its low level unupgraded troops is very weak . Every dwelling needs 10 ore , so marksmen+squire for protect them from shooters appear after some weeks . Archers die in every foe vs. shooters like butterflies .
Inferno high level dwellings is extremly expensive in resourses , but not so great on battlefield , especialy pit lords cause their poor speed and initiative . Deleb is a true nightmare for any opponent on small maps , but on large ones the situation changes . Last time I'd played vs. her , my Eruina destroyed her ballista by one emprowed chain lightning
Dun forget the hundreds of imps steal almost all of the dungeon heroes's mana in a big map 
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted January 01, 2007 03:56 PM |
|
|
Quote:
especialy pit lords cause their poor speed and initiative .
T-E-L-E-P-O-R-T_A-S-S-A-U-L-T
Pits are great, early on they are killers with their spells, later on teleport assault makes them one of the strongest level6s around. Who cares for initiative or speed in that case? Ah yes, vorpal sword means exactly 1 creature killed more.. well, here's your counter for tanks like treants or magma dragons.
There is a funny trick to perform, but you need arch devils. So, start with pitlords splitted into two stacks. Gate to get 4, and after the cerberi fall, summon pitlords from their body and use gating for a total of 6 pitlord stacks! Now, have fun with casting vulnerability (especially good vs. creature specialists), then use 6xVorpal Swords to whack any level 7 creature on the field. Power of speed helps here, since it gives you mass advanced haste, so pitlords gain decent init.
hah, just come with your eruina and let my thousands of familiars drain you empty. And have fun with your mighty implosions with 0 mana  Or try to beat obviously stronger inferno force paired with mass haste, gating (+50% units more..) and dark magic at bay with your zero mana and no cleansing unit 
It ain't as easy as you write it is.
Elvin, even without Deleb inferno is strong.. actually, with some heroes it's even stronger in lategame than with Deleb. But Deleb is needed for map control. Sadly. The costs are ridiculous.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted January 03, 2007 11:37 AM |
|
Edited by TheDeath at 11:42, 03 Jan 2007.
|
I'm tired of people saying that a "faction" is strong because one of the "heroes" is strong.
Take for example the necro Kaspar -- just because he starts with something else than others (First aid), doesn't make the necropolis "faction" oriented towards starting with first aid
A great strategy with necro is to build your mage guild as fast as possible, after the Graveyard, to restore your mana. Raise dead rules.
Another example is deleb. She is not "inferno".. she is a hero. To prove you that, suppose you fight with another inferno player. You both have THE SAME faction, yet only ONE Deleb.. Now, does that mean your "inferno" is different that his? And inferno can be really good in early game, even without Deleb. Familiars are great damage dealers, believe it or not (gating for shooters, of course).
Dougal? Nah, he's not overpowered.. most just overestimate marksmen. If you think Horned Overseers are slow and stupid, then marksmen do EXACTLY the same damage with the range penalty (far away). And they have less hit points (initiative is the same ). Plus Weakness dispels Divine strength, even if a ready-to-act paladin cleanses it.
Teleport assault: It ain't that great for the +0.5 ATB thing. Sure, it helps the first time, but not sacrifing all of your hero's turns just to increase the Pit lord's ATB. Plus logistics may be unavailable when you level up, so...
The reason for this is that spells like Frenzy or Puppet Master for example are way more powerful. You lose only one hero turn, and let the enemy destroy himself without retaliating on your troops. Also Pit Lords do low damage, even if the vorpal sword helps them somewhat. Compare it with other melee tier 6s (Wraith, Rakshasha Rajas, of course not treants).
Vorpal Sword on Treants?? Nah, it's a risky strategy -- teleporting your Pit lords on treants may cause them to be in "close range" of the Master Hunters -- plus the treants will entangle the Pit lords, making teleport assault-ing them unavailable In my opinion they are great just for spells and used as a defensive unit (which by the way, makes it a useful unit without teleport assault).
Sinitar is a very good hero.. In fact, all of them are (I play with every hero, not just Deleb/Kaspar/Dougal ). Also, for shooters like hunters it's best if you place tank units in the battle (aka treants, dragons, shadow witches). I got dragons on week 3 in the Mystic's Vale map, which isn't that rich IMHO. I don't need to mention I got all other tier dwellings and the Castle by that week.
My opinion for best races (excluding Necro which is sometimes overpowered, sometimes underpowered...):
1. Sylvan
2. Dungeon
3. Inferno (again, not because of Deleb, I don't even play her! and not because of First Aid, I don't even get it!)
4. Academy
5. Haven
Like I said I have not included necro in the list, it just changes it's power depending on too many factors.
The reason for placing sylvan and dungeon as the first on the list is not because of their "powerful units but low growth", but rather because I played them much more than the others.
Most just underestimate Dungeon, thinking that the hero with Implosion does all the job. Implosion is a very weak spell, IMHO.. It just does twice the damage of Fireball/Meteor Shower at expert mastery -- this means if you hit 2 or more stacks with the Fireball/Meteor Shower, it's better than Implosion. With even more creatures as Meteor Shower is supposed to, Implosion gets way behind the damage Shadow witches have vulnerability too, and Devils + Pit Lords are doomed by the Grim raiders (Defense = 0)
|
|
RectusDominus
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted January 03, 2007 12:33 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Dougal? Nah, he's not overpowered.. most just overestimate marksmen. If you think Horned Overseers are slow and stupid, then marksmen do EXACTLY the same damage with the range penalty (far away). And they have less hit points (initiative is the same ). Plus Weakness dispels Divine strength, even if a ready-to-act paladin cleanses it.
uhm lol?
1) marksmen get more ATT and DEF as dougal lvls
2) marksmen benefit greatly from light magic, while only very few people use dark magic
3) training peasents provides u with massive amounts of marksmen
4) marksmen benefit from squires (shield allies)
5) precise shot
their main weak spot is dungeons irresistable magic, but aside from that , dougal and his marksmen are overpowered
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted January 03, 2007 12:40 PM |
|
Edited by TheDeath at 12:41, 03 Jan 2007.
|
What about another alternative to dark magic, Deflect Missile?
Also confusing 100% of your marksmen via dark magic pretty much speaks for itself.
Precise shot? Who gets near the marksmen, eh? Probably some creatures with 2 defense
What about other heroes that improve attack and defense? Heroes who use "higher" tier creatures? I don't see why marksmen are better than horned overseers at far range though
Enemy can also cast "cleansing" (light magic) to dispel positive effects from marksmen. Overall, I still think training to squires is better -- much more durable, if you have the money
Btw: what has Irresistible magic got to do with Marksmen or Squires?
|
|
RectusDominus
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted January 03, 2007 01:05 PM |
|
|
dark magic aint a problem, cuz people almost never use it and besides from that light magic is better than dark magic, then there is the magic immunity spell, thats why I referred to ''irresistable'' magic, only dungeon can penetrate it, and yes deflect missle is a problem but enemy has to get that spell first,
ofcourse there are ways to get rid off marksmen, am not saying that there arent any, but go ahead play some games with dougal, ull find out that in many situations dougal is an overpowered hero.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted January 03, 2007 01:26 PM |
|
|
Yes he is a good hero (certainly not underpowered), I did play with Dougal... but do you REALLY know how MUCH training 200 peasants into marksmen costs?!?!? How much Gold, even with Expert Trainer and Hall of Heroes?? Now way could that be done in, let's say, week 2 or 3!
Of course 600 marksmen are overpowered... Guess how much damage will 600 Master Hunters do
And Squires do all the job.. and marksmen have no chance vs squires
|
|
sq79
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 03, 2007 05:20 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Yes he is a good hero (certainly not underpowered), I did play with Dougal... but do you REALLY know how MUCH training 200 peasants into marksmen costs?!?!? How much Gold, even with Expert Trainer and Hall of Heroes?? Now way could that be done in, let's say, week 2 or 3!
Of course 600 marksmen are overpowered... Guess how much damage will 600 Master Hunters do
And Squires do all the job.. and marksmen have no chance vs squires
Lol.. growth rate is 25 versus 14 / week, so better to compare 600 marksmen to 360 hunters.. but add the peasants over 1 month's income, and skip building the paladins, average, the figure is normally 1000 marksmen versus 250 hunters. Problem here is if the hunters can get a warding arrow out of the 1000 marksmen, if it can, sure its good with mass deflect missle, haven will lose, but the shot on dougal's marksmen with 250 hunters is kinda low so very very low chance of warding arrows
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted January 03, 2007 05:48 PM |
|
|
No.
Don't even say 360 hunters, it's ridiculous.
TowerLord used to get 600+ marksmen at week 6. WEEK_6. You'll have 80 hunters or so when he will have 600 marksmen. You'll have parroximately 8 times less hunters than he will have marksmen.
So..
1000 marksmen and around 125 hunters is a correct value
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted January 03, 2007 07:12 PM |
|
Edited by TheDeath at 19:15, 03 Jan 2007.
|
I was not talking about the growth system -- merely saying that you guys think marksmen are "overpowered".. No they're not, they are of course in LARGE NUMBERS (attainable or not, it doesn't matter).. I meant hunters, for example, are much better "as creatures" than marksmen, not taking growth into consideration.
And do you think you train them for FREE? Do you know how much gold does that cost? You think that by sacrificing Angels (devils) you will end up with a stronger marksmen-oriented army? I don't think so... Ok, 80 hunters, 9 Emerald Dragons, and stuff like that (or if you prefer, 100 Cerberi, 9 Archdevils)...
Yup, you don't have money for training, especially NOT at week 6. Not if you recruit everything else, that is. But you sacrifice other creatures just to add more "marksmen" which cost more than usual (training) to your army.
600 Marksmen?? they are better than 80 hunters sure, but HOW MUCH DO THEY COST?!?!? training is expensive and you also need to take this into account (even with Expert Trainer + Hall of Heroes dougal). That's what I wanted to say
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
|
|
posted January 03, 2007 07:21 PM |
|
Edited by VokialBG at 19:22, 03 Jan 2007.
|
Well Sylvan are strong in the beginning, but after 3 weeks all their opponent are stronger.
Dungeons are cool. The units are in small amount, but they are very qualitative. The dungeons army is nothing without the mighty Warlocks destructive magics. The bad point here is that all anti-magic artifacts are also anti-Dungeon artifacts and all anti-magic skills are also anti-Dungeon skills. Creatures with high magical protection, like the golems and the elemental creatures are very strong against Dungeon...
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted January 03, 2007 08:49 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I was not talking about the growth system -- merely saying that you guys think marksmen are "overpowered".. No they're not, they are of course in LARGE NUMBERS (attainable or not, it doesn't matter).. I meant hunters, for example, are much better "as creatures" than marksmen, not taking growth into consideration.
And do you think you train them for FREE? Do you know how much gold does that cost? You think that by sacrificing Angels (devils) you will end up with a stronger marksmen-oriented army? I don't think so... Ok, 80 hunters, 9 Emerald Dragons, and stuff like that (or if you prefer, 100 Cerberi, 9 Archdevils)...
Yup, you don't have money for training, especially NOT at week 6. Not if you recruit everything else, that is. But you sacrifice other creatures just to add more "marksmen" which cost more than usual (training) to your army.
600 Marksmen?? they are better than 80 hunters sure, but HOW MUCH DO THEY COST?!?!? training is expensive and you also need to take this into account (even with Expert Trainer + Hall of Heroes dougal). That's what I wanted to say
hahhah ask TowerLord. He never had problems with getting 600 marksmen at week 6. Don't say it is hard cuz it's not. You think he lies? I don't think so. He played with a few of the guys of our community and he admitted he had around 600 marksmen indeed at week 6. Izzachar was one of them, if I remember correct
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
