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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Creatures' Survival
Thread: Creatures' Survival This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted December 28, 2006 05:01 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 05:09, 28 Dec 2006.

Creatures' Survival

I hate comparing cities through numbers, but I also love to create charts and tables ;p So..

This chart isn't meant to compare the cities, just to give an info about the survivalability of the stacks. Imagine there is a stack with 10 ATT points, doing exactly 100 damage per hit. I calculated how much of weekly population of each stack will remain after the attack(I assume the castle is built so the base growth is doubled. NO creature boosting buildings are taken into account.)

HAVEN

Conscripts 45%
Marksmen 46%
Squires 80% (!)
Imperials: 69%
Inquisitors: 82%
Paladins: 82%
Archangels: 87%

As you can see, Haven town is very hard to bring down. It's suprising to see that the third level full population of squires is almost as hard to kill as a full population of inquisitors and paladins! Overall great endurance, and paired with knight's def and light magic.. ouchhh.

NECRO

Skellies 30% (Ofc their stack is always overgrown due to necromancy, this thing here is for the base population)
Zombs: 73%
Spectres: 62% (if taking incoreporal ability into account, this is higher of course)
Vamplords: 70%
Arch Liches: 75%
Wraights: 82%
Spectrals: 80%

Funny to see that zombies are harder to kill than vamps, huh? Well, Wraights and especially spectrals are almost impossible to get in MP games, leaving you with units that max out at 75% survivalability.. which isn't the best.

INFERNO
Familiars 27%
Overseers: 67%
Cerberi: 42%
Succubi Miss. : 60%
Nightmares: 79% (huh? )
Pit Lords: 84%
Arch Devils: 84%


Well, overseers are not as good tanks as I imagined them to be But maybe that's because of the tent, resulting in no loses in your tanking stack at creeping. Anyways, imp still stands for "I MUST PERISH", so watch out for quick attacks. You know - a warlock cames with tiny force and implodes the familiars, runs away and rehires.. THat makes it possible for him to spam implosions in the next battle -_-
Nightmares are suprisingly durable, but you can't say that about the cerberi.. which fall fast. Not a very durable town in total, that's why it needs gating in the late game )

DUNGEON
Assassins: 31%
Furies: 16% (>_>
Taurs: 67%
GrimRaiders: 78%
Deep Hydres: 88% (wow)
Shadow Mats: 78%
Blackies: 88%

The percentage shows all I wanted to say about blood furies: They totally lack the endurance needed to make them the prime killers. That's why players who write those posts about "best unit - blood fury" annoy me so much ~~ They die in their first round of a MP battle! period. Yrwanna doesn't change much - from 16% to around 30% at level 15. Bah. Still poor.

Same for assassins.. well, their numbers betray them, even though their hp is so good. HP and def is not enough alone..

Rest of the units offer great durability, though. Maybe the taurs are a bit easier to kill than they seem to be, but the rest is a nice tank-like army. Especially the hydras, which are harder to bring down than archangels!

SYLVAN

Sprites: -21% (yipes, negative value :X)
War Dancers: 38%
Master Hunters: 34%
Elder Druids: 60%
Silver Corns: 81%
Ancient Treants: 91% (Second only to magma dragons)
Emerald Drags: 84%


It's obvious here that sylvan has a hard time @ earlygame..just look at their tier 1-3 creatures! And, they are unlikely to get a tent.. ouchh. Worst creepers in the game, obviously.

Ossir is needed, because a LVL 15 Ossir raises Hunters' remaining stack to 50%, which is a bit more acceptable value for such a good offensive unit.

The level 5-7 units are very good in durability, so once you get them, things get easier, and the town becomes powerful.


ACADEMY

M.Gremlins: 42%
O.Gargs: 78% (!)
Steel Golems: 72%
Arch Mages: 67%
Djinn Sultans: 61% (with wish Cave it's more acceptable 71%)
Raksashas: 86%
Titanz: 84%

Academy's Gargs are one of the best tanks in the game with amazing for  a cheap level2 unit 78% survivalability.. Other units offer good endurance too, save the Djinns. But once you get their growth-boosting building (which is cheap and has a great secondary effect) they are also quite decent, suprisingly! A solid town in terms of endurance, which is quite suprising.

No Fortress chart this time ;p

One thing to note, if the attacker had more tha 10 ATT, the results would have been a bit different - the difference between loses of low and high level units would be lower.

Ah yes, in case you wonder: Magma Dragons have 93% and are 1st in the ranking

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted December 28, 2006 05:11 AM

Very nice work you did, Doomforge.

Just do a conculation of all the faction.
Which one is the best, worst, etc.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted December 28, 2006 05:19 AM

I can't say which faction is best looking on the numbers of the creatures, it's plain wrong..


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 28, 2006 05:37 AM

Hehe nice idea However there is margin for error as people play factions in a different manner! Still way to go!
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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted December 29, 2006 11:04 AM

Good work So when will we see the Fortress chart Hn? And well we all knew that Blood furies sucks i hate having them, fast but dead after their first hit...

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted December 29, 2006 11:36 PM

I think that Fortress survival will be the best, doesn't it?
The dwarves main paimary skill is defence.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 29, 2006 11:43 PM

Only the bear riders seem to fall easily.Maybe spearwielders a bit too,the rest tend to survive and have little casualties.Shieldguards are surprisingly durable for tier 1-even more so with Ingvar
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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted January 01, 2007 12:43 AM

Nice.  But now throw in hero attacks...

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KnightDougal
KnightDougal


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted January 01, 2007 10:08 AM

Blood Furies are realy sucks, they are instantly die. THE DUNGEON IS THE WEAKEST!!!
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Dungeonian
Dungeonian


Adventuring Hero
Supreme matriarch
posted January 01, 2007 10:28 AM

Quote:
Blood Furies are realy sucks, they are instantly die. THE DUNGEON IS THE WEAKEST!!!


Oh , come on , my whip is hungry today. How about offensive potential of creatures , their speed , initiative etc. ? Using hit-n-run tactics several those "tiny" maidens could kill several hundreds those "tanky" squires .

 To your point that Dungeon is weak now - I would be very glad if Ubival will trust this , may be they somehow emprowe us for even greater pleasure
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Ted
Ted


Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
posted January 01, 2007 11:14 AM

well, if you consider all the facts of Dungeon they are a good faction

Assassins- Poision
Furies- quick off the mark, no enemy retailiation
Minotaurs- Double attack
Grimraider- Bite attack
Hydra- great health for level 5, and a decent health for level 6
Witches- ranged, spells
Blacks D- best (or second best) dragon in game
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RectusDominus
RectusDominus


Adventuring Hero
posted January 01, 2007 12:32 PM

dungeons creatures don't rlly matter, it's all about their magic, which rocks if u ask me

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 01, 2007 04:16 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 16:20, 01 Jan 2007.

Quote:
Oh , come on , my whip is hungry today. How about offensive potential of creatures , their speed , initiative etc. ? Using hit-n-run tactics several those "tiny" maidens could kill several hundreds those "tanky" squires .



I understand your point, but I still think speed, initiative and offensive potential means nothing when your favorite unit lies dead on the ground, killed within first turn of combat. A more "tanky" unit can in fact deal more damage over time, just because it's so durable that players ignore it and try to focus on weaker things, to eliminate the "offensive" units first. That's what I do, anyway. Blood furies are my first&favorite target 16% survivalability from such a weak attack means a lot, I guess. They are approximately five times easier to kill than squires. So, if an attack kills 1/5 pop of squires, it also kills 100% furies. How about that?

Btw I agree with RectusDominus.. Offensive magic is the path of dungeon.. except when fighting academy, which can make all your toasting magic useless with counterspell. However, a more "might" orientated dungeon hero after losing his army is a gonner. A full "magic" user after losing his army can still run, rehire, get some tanky creatures and return to finish the "winner" with empowered lucky spells, even though he won the first combat..

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted January 01, 2007 07:55 PM

doom, can you create similiar with Fortress units?

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 01, 2007 09:10 PM

The town strengts changes so mutch whit map size and how long you can plan your moves before attacking/defensing againts other players. It's little risky in my books to attack in very early game unless there are only 2 players in the map (computers dosen't count).

Each town are good and bring down other towns but sure there are end game specialist. Haven, Fortress and Necropolis are really powerfull in late game battles.

Haven can have incredibly army whit Training also Knight is only might oriental hero what is really great in end games where the actual creature strenghts surpasses the spell power of any hero. So lots of full populations and good leveling hero might be too hard to beat whit magic oriental heroes when there are also Light magic helping the powerfull Haven army.

Fortress is another haven alike strong and powerfull. The creatures like Thanes and Brawlers are just bad but in end game Dwarfs can change their power completely whit great runes what they have. In really big numbers those Magma Dragons seems unbeatable and only one can do real damage to them is enemy heroes whit their magic and strikes. Here again if you let this army to grow too strong you have hard time to take them down.

Necropolis is just it's own self out there. Not so strong town itself but enemies should be awake and never be passive when playing againts Necromancers. Number of Skeleton Archers really makes difference but you really need them A LOT before they are "unbeatable".


Dungeon is allright town also but it is really diffrent when they are at their strongest point when hero gets those lucky empowered Meteor Showers or Implosions. Every week they become more weaker in the game when game goes on but that ain't no unbalance at all! Warlock hero just need to clear out the enemies sooner when it's strenght is destructive magic whit high spell power.

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Istari
Istari


Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
posted January 02, 2007 03:43 PM
Edited by Istari at 17:20, 02 Jan 2007.

Quote:

Imagine there is a stack with 10 ATT points, doing exactly 100 damage per hit. I calculated how much of weekly population of each stack will remain after the attack



Your numbers may be a little misleading.  I don't want to over-complicate your chart, but some of it just doesn't make sense.  Your chart calculates how much of each stack will remain after it attacks... 100% of Blood Fury's (and every other creature with no retaliation) would survey after their attack.  Also why did you set the attack at 10 for all creatures.  Creatures have an attack stat that you could use without setting them all the same.  I like the idea of looking at survivability but this doesn't seem to be doing that very acurately.  Sorry to be a critic, correct me if I've misunderstood your intention or method.

Edit- Nevermind, I get it now.  Just measuring Defense, HP, and weekly growth.
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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted January 02, 2007 04:03 PM

Quote:


Dungeon is allright town also but it is really diffrent when they are at their strongest point when hero gets those lucky empowered Meteor Showers or Implosions. Every week they become more weaker in the game when game goes on but that ain't no unbalance at all! Warlock hero just need to clear out the enemies sooner when it's strenght is destructive magic whit high spell power.


Don't forget about the altar of elements.  If you have many castles the damage adds up fast.  On the other hand the Black Dragon just isn't dominant any more.  That heroes tradition is gone.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 02, 2007 05:03 PM

For a more complete picture you could add the survivability of the unupgraded units.For instance ordinary genies fall like flies and by the time you upg them there aren't many left.Considering you don't have the luxury of leaving them in town of course.
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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted January 02, 2007 09:25 PM

I don't want to rush you Doomforge, but i would really like to see the Fortress chart... So when can you post it? When can i see how great my dwarfes are?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 02, 2007 09:37 PM

I'm gonna do it tomorrow, since I'm too tired today (working since 7 am till 9 pm duh)

Istari you've got it a bit wrong, it's not about retaliation strikes, so "no retaliation" ability does not change a thing.

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