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| Thread: Neutral alignment: what do you think about it? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted January 09, 2007 08:46 PM |
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Neutral alignment: what do you think about it?
As you probebly know, there are two alignments in H5: Good and Evil.
Humans (Haven), Wizards (Academy) and Elves (Sylvan) are good.
Demons (Inferno), Undead (Necropolis) and Dark elves (Dungeon) are evil.
In H3, for example, was a third alignment: neutarl.
There Fortress and Stronghold were neutral.
What do you think about having a neutral alignment in H5?
And mabey the next two factions (probebly orcs and nagas) will be neutral, like they were in H3?
Personaly, I don't like it.
I think that two alignments are enough, becuase will be less action if will be a neutral one.
But there are people that like this idea, and (probebly) don't see the orcs ar the nagas are good or evil.
What do you think about it?
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted January 09, 2007 08:56 PM |
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Well i see Fortress as neutral in this game? The dwarfs you meet in the campaign are not neutral they fight for the good guys, but the other dwarfs are evil because they join the renegades... And well they were neutral ... So for me they still are...
Orcs or nagas who know? I don't mind neutral towns, you should just do as they did in the HoMM3 campaign where you could choose if you wanted to fight for the evil or good guys, by that way you made a side ...
and the orcs in Dark messiah are rather neutral and free thinkin, my guess is that if they get threaten they will go to war and then redraw after they won or lost... and now that they hate wizards they wont join with them...
Naga, I guess these guys will be some nasty bastards (if we get them), i guess they will be a lovely little prime evil
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 09, 2007 08:58 PM |
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Ohh, come on, the world can't be just divided on the good part and the evil part, it's childish. There are always those who don't care for morals, but don't see any particular reason for harming anyone without a point. These are the neutrals: A hedonic group that is devoted mainly to their own bussiness and happiness. Easy.
Well, it's still not that there are just "good, bad and neutrals" anyway, but including neutral sites makes it a bit less childish. Good vs. Evil? rotfl.
Well, I always like the plain evil sides more anyway, btw.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 09, 2007 10:03 PM |
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Yes, too simplistic as it is now. Especially since the devs did their best to assure us about many layers of grey etc. Of course in the campaigns it's not as simple but gameplay-wise it's perfectly understandable that say elves don't mind fighting with humans yet they lose morale when fighting with undead.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 09, 2007 10:03 PM |
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i think its going to be increases sides of good v evil, each faction is going to have a archenemy on each side.
good <-> evil
haven <-> inferno
sylvan <-> dungeon
academy <-> nercopolis
fortress <-> renegades
(future, or factions that i've created)
stampede <-> stronghold
palace <-> tropical
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 09, 2007 11:59 PM |
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There should be the traditional double-sides alignment separation as in classical role-playing games:
Good vs. Evil
Chaos vs. Larfullness (Order)
Thus, Haven would probably be categorized as Lawfull Good, whereas Sylvan would be Chaotic Good. On the opposite site of the scales would be Demonic (Infernal) at Chaotic Evil and Darkelfs at Lawfull Evil. Academy and Necropolis would tend more toward neutral (Neutral Good vs. Neutral Evil) as could the Dwarfs and Orcs (Lawfull Neutral vs. Chaotic Neutral). I actually made a long and winded discussion about the topics of factions alignments once - it's in the vaults of the Altar Of Wishes somewhere, but I don't remember exactly where.
This figure pretty much sums up what I'm talking about:
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SS
Known Hero
Strike first, Strike Hard
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posted January 10, 2007 01:47 AM |
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yes there is no clear line between good and evil. An example of such case would be dungeon. they are both evil and good ( Ygg guy ). or humans there are the fallen ones and there are the conservative ones. besides what is meant by evil and good? good from our side ( humans)?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 10, 2007 08:41 AM |
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That's probably too much of a philosophical approach. Of course, there are always departures from the norm - some Darkelfs being good, although the general tendency is towards evil - but that still makes the Darkelf faction evil. Secondly, there is a distinct difference between good and evil. Good implies taking care of others, respecting their needs, feeling compassion, etc. Evil implies using others for your own good, ruthlesness etc. Lawfulness implies sticking to the rules, having a strictly organized powersystem, etc. Chaos implies bending the rules to achieve your goal - that being for good, or for evil.
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted January 10, 2007 10:35 AM |
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Quote:
There should be the traditional double-sides alignment separation as in classical role-playing games:
Good vs. Evil
Chaos vs. Larfullness (Order)
Thus, Haven would probably be categorized as Lawfull Good, whereas Sylvan would be Chaotic Good. On the opposite site of the scales would be Demonic (Infernal) at Chaotic Evil and Darkelfs at Lawfull Evil. Academy and Necropolis would tend more toward neutral (Neutral Good vs. Neutral Evil) as could the Dwarfs and Orcs (Lawfull Neutral vs. Chaotic Neutral). I actually made a long and winded discussion about the topics of factions alignments once - it's in the vaults of the Altar Of Wishes somewhere, but I don't remember exactly where.
This figure pretty much sums up what I'm talking about:
Haven are the most chaotic from the good ones.
Academy are the most "Ordered" faction, Sylvan is between them.
Row 2 and 3 are fine.
Thats my opinion.
And the Neutral faction must be a elemental race with Phoenix on tier 7
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 10, 2007 11:51 AM |
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Certainly, in this storyline, Haven has a rather chaotic orientation, at least Queen Isabel. But if you look at Haven in general, with the Celestial/Angelic alignment, it's almost the epitome of Lawful Good alignment). And (Light)Elven society is traditionally very chaotic in its organisation, with a very losely defined power structure and high degrees of personal freedom. Of course, that's just the traditional approach, and one may say that Heroes 5 could have taken another one - still, I think it fits fairly well. Also notice how opponing cities - Haven/Inferno, Academy/Necropolis, Sylvan/Dungeon, Fortress/Stronghold - are on opposite sites of the wheel.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 10, 2007 01:10 PM |
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Yeah but the elves have honor, so they cannot be "chaotic".. In Nwn, being a Neutral Good character means you're "Kind" or something, so I think Elves should be Neutral Good.
Haven Lawful good? Maybe only Inquisitors or Priests.. in fact, Humans are very corrupted -- there are usually as much evil humans (bandits, greedy guys, etc) as good ones, so it should kinda lift it as either Chaotic or Neutral. True Archangels are good, so are Paladins & Inquisitors & Priests, but the rest are not probable to be ranked at 100% good  (in Age of Wonders, humans are neutral) Ah, the Griffin is GOOOOODD!!!! 
Inferno = Chaotic Evil (aka Destroyer), I agree.. And I actually like the "apocaliptic" idea most from Demons. (dunno why in Nwn there were Demons & Devils, two different things fighting each other, lol).
Dark Elves = Lawful Evil (aka Dominator), I agree 100% here too.
Dwarves are Lawful Neutral, ok here Though I still love to see the Dark Elves (archenemies) make them suffer, as I like Dark elves much more than those pesky little puppies, though I like the idea of their strong stamina. 
So pretty much there is no "simple" good vs evil.. I agree with Doomforge, plain Good vs Evil is childish, especially when there is a "so the Good guy defeated the Evil guy, and they lived happy ever after" thing.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 10, 2007 02:16 PM |
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yeah, why the "bad guy killed the good guy" ending appears so rarely? Villians are often cool in design and in character depth.. more than the good guys. Shame to waste their potential just to let the "good" win, just because everyone else who creates fantasy worlds and stories does so.. 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 10, 2007 02:35 PM |
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Quote:
Inferno = Chaotic Evil (aka Destroyer), I agree.. And I actually like the "apocaliptic" idea most from Demons. (dunno why in Nwn there were Demons & Devils, two different things fighting each other, lol).
Actually, NWN got it right in terms of traditional fantasy world. There is a huge schism between Diabolic (aka. Infernal) creatures on one hand and Demonic creatures on the other. Diabolic creatures are lawfull evil, and are those we traditionally envision to live in "Hell" (fires and flames and other bad things - i.e. Heroes Inferno environment). Demonic creatures, on the other hand, have a much more varied expression, and are usually categorized as Chaotic Evil. Demons comes in the form of Horned Demons, Ice Demons + many, many more. And Demons in fact have nothing to do with Diabolic units - sure, they are both evil, but they are not allied and can fight each others (just like good can fight good).
And btw. I don't see any problem in being Chaotic and having honor. Being chaotic just implies that you are more likely to bend the rules, more likely to interpret the word of the law than follow it literally, and that you thrive better in personal freedom than in a very systemized society.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted January 10, 2007 02:36 PM |
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Quote:
This table is excellent, but I just can't see Sylvan as chaotic.
They're the most calm and pieceful race, those elves.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 10, 2007 02:45 PM |
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Quote:
Actually, NWN got it right in terms of traditional fantasy world. There is a huge schism between Diabolic (aka. Infernal) creatures on one hand and Demonic creatures on the other. Diabolic creatures are lawfull evil, and are those we traditionally envision to live in "Hell" (fires and flames and other bad things - i.e. Heroes Inferno environment). Demonic creatures, on the other hand, have a much more varied expression, and are usually categorized as Chaotic Evil. Demons comes in the form of Horned Demons, Ice Demons + many, many more. And Demons in fact have nothing to do with Diabolic units - sure, they are both evil, but they are not allied and can fight each others (just like good can fight good).
I cannot really see Diabolic nor Demonic being Lawful Evil, because they are not even close to the dark elves.
In Nwn, demons live in the Abyss (don't know how it's there), and devils live in Hell (ok, flames & fires and stuff). But I can't really see why they would be Lawful Evil. IMHO that's the place reserved for Dark elves not Apocalyptic demons
I always found Balors cooler than Pit Fiends, and more sinister anyway
Quote:
And btw. I don't see any problem in being Chaotic and having honor. Being chaotic just implies that you are more likely to bend the rules, more likely to interpret the word of the law than follow it literally, and that you thrive better in personal freedom than in a very systemized society.
I don't know what to say, and don't even know why, but I have a feeling Sylvan should be in Neutral Good rather than Chaotic.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 10, 2007 02:52 PM |
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Well first of - the concepts of Good, Evil, Lawfull and Chaotic apply to a role-playing system that has nothing to do with Heroes 5. Therefore, to apply them to the game can only be a matter of interpretation - and you can't say that each faction belongs to one group only, because the groups were not made for this game, and the factions were not made with the groups in consideration.
Secondly, several factions can be of the same alignment - so just because we interpret Dark Elfs to be lawfull good, that doesn't meen that they have to be allied or connected to anything Diabolic, just because Devils are of that allignment. And anyway as I said, the Heroes 5 Inferno mixed Diabolic and Demonic.
Thirdly, the traditional Diabolic "society" is in fact very lawfull in the way that there is a very strict hierachic system between the different Diabolic creatures, where every creature has a very defined and fixed role in the "society" - one of the main characteristics of a lawfull society. Of course, lawfullness does not necessarily implie that every creature is obeys the law due to its own consciousness - you can enforce lawfulness through fear of punishment as well!
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted January 10, 2007 03:15 PM |
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Actully there are more good in this game then there are evil, (only campaign). Because in campaign only evil guys are Inferno and Necropolice. Dungeon are evil and good, you play against the evil guys but unite them to fight for Raelag (Good guy) . So only in MP there are Evil and good factions. Just as much as fortress not being evil or good. they fight for both sides. and MP they play more a neutral role, or actully you can deside how they should be...
ANd well in HoF campaing you don't meet sylvan or academy again. That gives us a bad look on them, like they don't care! So in HoF campaign they get seen on as neutral! and necros are long gone away to some other place... So they actully have different roles all the time..
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 10, 2007 04:13 PM |
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Well, I think that Sylvan are Lawful Good in Heroes 5, even if it doesn't fit alc's table with the opposites so nicely arranged.
I mean Look at them, they are tradition freaks, they won't do anything if it's against their tradition or honor (which in this case works just like the laws for the elves). And besides any society whose people live as long as the elves will always be lawful and wouldn't want to change something.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 10, 2007 06:21 PM |
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i don't think dwarves are nuetral orderly?
i agree with the orderly, but they are quiet clearly good!
the guys from ubi even said so.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted January 10, 2007 07:09 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 19:13, 10 Jan 2007.
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OK, good topic 
You know, i like the theories and the experiments.
My new theory:
Lets see the heroes...we have two tipes of heroes - magic and might orientated. One type per race.
We all know the good races:
Academy, Haven, Sylvan
So:
Haven's hero is might orientated.
Academie's hero is magic orientated.
Sylvan's hero is might orientated.
The bad guys:
Inferno's hero is might orientated.
Necropolis hero is magic orientated.
Dungeon's hero is magic orientated.
After HoF, we have dwarfs hero too:
Fotress hero is magic orientated
So, results (Heroes 5 Standard):
Good:
2 might orientated heroes types + 1 magic orientated hero type
Bad guys:
2 magic orientated heroes types + 1 might orientated hero type
So, we need to add +1 magic to the good guys and + 1 might to the bad guys, if we want to have a balance:
Fotress hero is magic orientated, so he is with the good guys.
But we still need +1 bad might hero, we all know - the next race will be Stronghold (maybe with different name, but orgs) and I'm sure that the hero will be might, after the next Addon, the balance will be here:
Good:
2 might orientated heroes types + 2 magic orientated heroes types
Bad:
2 magic orientated heroes types + 2 might orientated heroes types
4 vs 4 (After The Second Addon)
Balance - Good vs Evil
The Second Addon will be last.
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