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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Naga Queen vs Dread Knight
Thread: Naga Queen vs Dread Knight This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Namerutan
Namerutan

Tavern Dweller
posted January 12, 2007 12:00 AM
Edited by Namerutan at 00:37, 12 Jan 2007.

With a map created for testing purposes, I've done 100 tests over Sand (no terrain bonuses) with Clavius (level 1, 0 At, 0 Def, 1 SP, 1 Kn) and  100 Dread Knights in one stack versus Rissa (level 1, 0 At, 0 Def, 1 SP, 1 Kn) and 100 Naga Queens in one stack, playing hot seat (5'5 hours, making some calculations and writing notes).
Combat orders:
1 - Dread Knight advances 3 tiles; out of range from Nagas. This is an anormal action because if Naga Queen moves and have a moral bonus, the first round Dread Knights could attack. For my tests it was a way for accelerate the tests.
2 - Naga Queen defends.
3 - Dread Knight attacks. Naga Queen retaliates.
4 - Naga Queen attacks. No retaliation from Dread Knights.
Repeat 3 and 4 until the end.

When Naga receive moral bonus (yes, with only one stack, they had +1 moral), Naga moves in order to avoid an extra attack or a defense bonus for the next round.

I didn't count the times  Naga was cursed, because curse not affected in any manner to the combat. Naga Queen always did 28.5 damage to Dread Knight (Dread Knight never had a defense bonus in this combats).

Luck was absent in all combats.

Dread Knight's special attack did double damage, being 2x normal damage. Better attack, in the first attack (second round, really a lucky attack) was 5557 damage points (55.57 per unit). In other rounds, none attack was better.

Here are some numbers:
- 93 games Rissa won, 7 games Clavius won.
- 34 games Nagas had a moral bonus one time, 1 game Nagas had 2 moral bonuses.
- 59 games Dread Knights had one double damage attack, 27 games had 2 double damage attacks, 2 games had 3 double damage attacks (12 games none double attack). Counting first round for approach and Nagas defending, a double damage attack in the second round (actually the first attack) was only 7 games; these games Clavius won. There was 6  games with 2 double attacks in the first and second attacks (rounds 2 and 3), with 0 losses for Rissa, being the better for Clavius the next combat:
1 - Dread Knight advances (3 tiles). Naga defends.
2 - Dread Knight attacks, making 2645 (26.45) damage points (24 Naga Queens died); Naga Queen Retaliates, making 2166 damage points (18 Dread Knights died). Naga Queen attacks, making 2166 damage points (18 Dread Knights died).
3 - Dread Knight attacks, making 3096 (48.375) damage points with an special attack (28 Naga Queens died); Naga Queen Retaliates, making 1368 damage points (11 Dread Knights died). Naga Queen attacks, making 1368 damage points (11 Dread Knights died).
4 - Dread Knight attacks, making 2079 (49.5) damage points with an special attack (19 Naga Queens died); Naga Queen Retaliates, making 826 damage points (7 Dread Knights died). Naga Queen attacks, making 826 damage points (7 Dread Knights died).
5 - Dread Knight attacks, making 758 (27.071) damage points (6 Naga Queens died); Naga Queen Retaliates, making 655 damage points (6 Dread Knights died). Naga Queen attacks, making 655 damage points (5 Dread Knights died).
6 - Dread Knight attacks, making 814 (47.882) damage points with an special attack (8 Naga Queens died); Naga Queen Retaliates, making 427 damage points (4 Dread Knights died). Naga Queen attacks, making 427 damage points (3 Dread Knights died).
7 - Dread Knight attacks, making 255 (25.5) damage points (2 Naga Queens died); Naga Queen Retaliates, making 370 damage points (3 Dread Knights died). Naga Queen attacks, making 370 damage points (3 Dread Knights died).
8 - Dread Knight attacks, making 207 (51.75) damage points (2 Naga Queens died); Naga Queen Retaliates, making 313 damage points (3 Dread Knights died). Naga Queen attacks, killing the last Dread Knight. The combat ends; the winner is Rissa.

It was a long combat, being the normal ones with 6 rounds.


It was a bit boring to repeat so many tests, but I enjoyed also with the results.

I think Naga Queens are better, but there are also some other factors and posibilities to take advantage from their properties (both, for Dread Knights and for Naga Queens), as moral, luck, spells, terrain, hero specialties...

____________
Ven a [url=http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.es/]La Torre de Marfil[/url]

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HeymlicH
HeymlicH


Famous Hero
posted January 12, 2007 12:47 PM

mhhmm ... then it was only in H1 and H2 where a single stack doesn't get the morale bonus? The morale explains why the nagas were winning 93% in your test while the simulation only gave 75%. I will add morale to the simulation as well, let's see what happens

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HeymlicH
HeymlicH


Famous Hero
posted January 12, 2007 01:02 PM

I also implemented morale and get 20.5% for the Dread Knight. Whatever I try, it is always the same: Double blow in round 1: DK wins. All other cases: NQ wins


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BlackkDeathhh
BlackkDeathhh


Hired Hero
posted January 12, 2007 03:06 PM

Quote:
I think Naga Queens are better

Just because they win on 1v1 against Dread Knights? That's hardly the case in an ordinary game.

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Namerutan
Namerutan

Tavern Dweller
posted January 12, 2007 08:02 PM
Edited by Namerutan at 20:09, 12 Jan 2007.

Quote:
The morale explains why the nagas were winning 93% in your test

Morale was discarded in my test, by moving Nagas.
Maybe 93% isn't very accurate, because 100 combats could be a low number. Anyway is a very explicit value.

Quote:
Quote:
I think Naga Queens are better

Just because they win on 1v1 against Dread Knights? That's hardly the case in an ordinary game.


Well, actually, it's difficult to compare units from different alignments, but you may take in consideration the factors in three 'neutral' ways:
A) - Neutral option. If your army isn't from tower or necro, which units would you prefer to  obtain in a refugee camp?
B) - Attack option. If you could choose between two prisons, one with a necro hero with Dread Knights, the other with a tower hero with Naga Queens, what would you choose?
C) - Defense option. You have some castles, including a necro and a tower. What castle do you prefer to protect, if you need to choose one of the two armys?

I think in case A I prefer Naga Queens.
For case B, I prefer necros if the hero has a good level; tower if low level heroes.
In case C, I prefer Naga Queens again.

____________
Ven a [url=http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.es/]La Torre de Marfil[/url]

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 13, 2007 12:21 PM

Quote:
Combat orders:
1 - Dread Knight advances 3 tiles; out of range from Nagas. This is an anormal action because if Naga Queen moves and have a moral bonus, the first round Dread Knights could attack. For my tests it was a way for accelerate the tests.
2 - Naga Queen defends.
3 - Dread Knight attacks. Naga Queen retaliates.
4 - Naga Queen attacks. No retaliation from Dread Knights.
Repeat 3 and 4 until the end.
Again, the DK should use it's superior speed in order to get the first and third hit. The flow of hits would be DK, NQ (retal), DK, NQ (retal), NQ, DK, NQ (retal), NQ. Repeat the underlined.
Otherwise the DK stands very little chance of winning.

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william
william


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
posted January 13, 2007 12:28 PM

Quote:

I think Naga Queens are better, but there are also some other factors and posibilities to take advantage from their properties (both, for Dread Knights and for Naga Queens), as moral, luck, spells, terrain, hero specialties...



Like what I said in a previous post of mine.

So yeh I agree with you, well you must agree with me then
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~

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Namerutan
Namerutan

Tavern Dweller
posted January 13, 2007 02:59 PM

Quote:
Again, the DK should use it's superior speed in order to get the first and third hit. The flow of hits would be DK, NQ (retal), DK, NQ (retal), NQ, DK, NQ (retal), NQ. Repeat the underlined.
Otherwise the DK stands very little chance of winning.


Yes, this is the correct flow. I'll repeat the test this evening.

____________
Ven a [url=http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.es/]La Torre de Marfil[/url]

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kallen
kallen


Known Hero
posted January 13, 2007 03:00 PM

Two simulatons:
100 Naga Q vs. 100 Dread K.

1) Round
- Dread K. move
- Naga Q. defend
2) Round
- Dread K - attack
- Naga Q - counterstrkie
- Naga Q - attack...
(repeat)
And Naga Q winns if DK has no Death Blow in first attack.

Or:
1) Round
- DK wait
- Naga Q move ahead(only stupid AI)
- DK attack
- NQ counter
2) Round
- DK Attack
- NQ counter
- NQ attack....
(repeat)
And DK winns with Death Blow(without DB Dread Knight lose).


____________
From the beginnin' to end Losers lose, winners win This is real, we ain't got to pretend The cold world that we in Is full of pressure and pain I thought it would chane
But its stayin' the same

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 13, 2007 04:47 PM
Edited by Ecoris at 16:50, 13 Jan 2007.

The NQ does not need to move ahead (it would be better of defending since it realizes it will never gain the first attack unless it gets good morale). The DK would use it's turn to move closer to the NQ but just without it's reach. Next turn it waits. It can always do this.

The wait option is used over and over in real battles to gain the mentioned 'two-turn' advantage. The opponent will retaliate of course, but you get the first and third hit. Only H3 allows this; in H2 there was no wait option and in H4 units would hit simultaneously (unless one had0 'first strike').

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kallen
kallen


Known Hero
posted January 13, 2007 07:11 PM

Quote:
The NQ does not need to move ahead (it would be better of defending since it realizes it will never gain the first attack unless it gets good morale). The DK would use it's turn to move closer to the NQ but just without it's reach. Next turn it waits. It can always do this.


Let's see:

1) Round
- DK Wait
- NQ Defend
- DK move
2) Round
- DK attack
- NQ counter
- NQ attack
(repeat)...
And Naga Queen allways winn if Dread Knight has no DB i first attack or DB in 2 and 3 rounds...


____________
From the beginnin' to end Losers lose, winners win This is real, we ain't got to pretend The cold world that we in Is full of pressure and pain I thought it would chane
But its stayin' the same

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted January 13, 2007 07:19 PM
Edited by angelito at 19:22, 13 Jan 2007.

Again wrong Kallen.

1st:
DK move (out of range of NQ, but close enough to hit them NQs next turn), NQ defend.

2nd:
DK wait, NQ defend, DK attack

3rd:
DK attack, NQ retail, NQ attack.

repeat 3rd.

the way u describe it, the Dk won't have 2 hits in a row.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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kallen
kallen


Known Hero
posted January 13, 2007 09:36 PM
Edited by kallen at 22:28, 13 Jan 2007.

Sorry my mistake;P, but DK lose without(in 3 first attack) death blow(20% chance). That it's incontestale...

Quote:
1st:
DK move (out of range of NQ, but close enough to hit them NQs next turn), NQ defend.

2nd:
DK wait, NQ defend, DK attack

3rd:
DK attack, NQ retail, NQ attack.

repeat 3rd.


But if DK move +2 hex(close enough to hit), Naga Queen move to middle of battlefield, DK must attack or move to corner(out of range NQ).

1) round
- DK move(2hexes)
- NQ(no defend) move to middle battlefield
2) round
- DK move to corner(out of range NQ) or Attack NQ(without DB lose)
- NQ move to DK
3) round
- DK must attack(without DB, lose)
- NQ counter
- NQ attack
(repeat)





____________
From the beginnin' to end Losers lose, winners win This is real, we ain't got to pretend The cold world that we in Is full of pressure and pain I thought it would chane
But its stayin' the same

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 13, 2007 11:59 PM
Edited by Ecoris at 00:00, 14 Jan 2007.

C'mon do we have to pin out every detail?

Round 1:
DK waits. NQ defends (if they move within the DKs' reach the DK may attack them twice)
DK moves a little forward such that it can just reach the NQ.

Round 2:
DK waits. NQs have the same options as in round 1 so they defend again.
DK attacks. NQ retaliates.

Round 3:
DK attacks. NQ retaliates. NQ attacks.

repeat round 3 until a winner is found.


There will not be any chasing each other around the battlefield.

As mentioned more than once already the flow of hits (retals included) will be:
DK,NQ,DK,NQ,NQ. Repeat the underlined.

When I did 10 test runs the DK won if they got double damage on one of the two first hits or if they delivered high damage.

I fear that I'll eventually have to write a simulator myself.

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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted January 14, 2007 01:49 AM

Also got to think about the gamble of getting morale or double damage.
I can think of countless times i have gotten double damage in a row.
I got double damage 5 times in a row before.
Then nagian (yes I said Nagian on purpose ) the Nagas could get morale & get some free hits in while knighs dont get morale.

____________
Dreaming of a Better World

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted January 14, 2007 01:59 PM

In duel Naga Queens actually wins the Dread Knight most of the times when i tested it Naga Queens won 4 of 6 fights and Dread Knights won only when they got the Double strike what hapens of 20% change.

Dread Knights are itself more powerfull creatures than the Nage Queens but the Nagas No enemy retalation ability makes them last very long in the battle. Nagas have double strike when Dread Knights can hit only once in turn and Nagas can hit and retaliate. Also there is no use of Dread Knights cursing ability when Nagas dosen't have any difference on their damage range.

Creature strengts are still hard to measure when Naga Queens are more powerfull than Dread Knights in 1vs1 but Dread Knight has better speed along whit the other statics aswell.

Creature strenght in 1vs1 situtation is not the only what makes creatures good. Like the Ancient Behemonths for instance they are the only creatures what can actually beat Archangels in 1vs1 fight but they still aren't as good as the Archangels when they have Recurrection ability and thanks of the great speed they come more usefull in each battle.

All in all the Naga Queens might be little better than Dread Knights when they win in 1vs1 fight and having huge damage and no enemy retalation. Still i prefer Dread Knights before Naga Queens mainly because the high speed and personal likeness.

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Namerutan
Namerutan

Tavern Dweller
posted January 14, 2007 02:46 PM

The new results: Dread Knights 51 Victories, Naga Queens 49 Victories.

3 Death Blows: 3 games
2 Death Blows: 26 games
1 Death Blows: 52 games
0 Death Blows: 19 games

Which round Dread Knights attck with Death Blow is critical:
1st - 6 games, 6 victories for necro, 36 DN - 65 DN.
1st & 2nd - 1 game, 1 victory for necro, 78 DN.
1st & 4th - 1 game, 1 victory for necro, 60 DN.
2nd - 17 games, 1 victory for tower & 16 victories for necro, 2 NQ - 37 DN (low damage in several rounds ends with a victory for tower, to my surprise).
2nd & 4th - 1 game, 1 victory for necro, 45 DN.
2nd & 5th - 5 games, 5 victories for necro, 11 DN - 46 DN.
2nd & 6th - 4 games, 1 victory for tower, 3 victories for necro, 5 NQ - 44 DN.
3rd - 6 games, 1 victory for tower, 5 victories for necro, 2 NQ - 21 DN (low damage again).
3rd & 5th - 2 games, 2 victories for necro, 9 DN - 30 DN.
3rd & 6th - 7 games, 1 victory for tower, 6 victories for necro, 2 NQ -  23 DN.
3rd & 7th - 5 games, 3 victories for tower, 2 victories for necro, 8 NQ - 12 DN.
4th - 12 games, 12 victories for tower, 16 NQ - 36 NQ.
5th - 7 games, 7 victories for tower, 20 NQ - 39 NQ.
6th - 4 games, 4 victories for tower, 22 NQ - 41 NQ.
none - 19 games, 19 victories for tower, 23 NQ - 45 NQ.

As result of my new test, I'm not as convinced as yesterday about which unit is better.

____________
Ven a [url=http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.es/]La Torre de Marfil[/url]

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JungleMan
JungleMan


Hired Hero
Funkenstein
posted January 14, 2007 03:43 PM

Quote:
The new results: Dread Knights 51 Victories, Naga Queens 49 Victories.

In your test, DK win more then half times, it's just not possible.

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Namerutan
Namerutan

Tavern Dweller
posted January 14, 2007 06:03 PM

Quote:
Quote:
The new results: Dread Knights 51 Victories, Naga Queens 49 Victories.

In your test, DK win more then half times, it's just not possible.

Maybe 100 combats isn't enough...

Thinking about other factor to take into account comparing this units, I've compiled a list of spells useful for both units. I think this list shows it in order of importance:
1 - Tower can slow DK or haste NQ, to make first hit, avoiding double attck from DK. Even can use teleport or prayer.
2 - Necro can blind Nagas, or maybe hipnotize, to avoid retaliation.
3 - Direct damage spells are better for necro, due to lower health of Nagas.
4 - Tower can use Destroy Undead, Resurrection or Mirth, while necro can use Death Ripple, Animate Dead and Sorrow.
5 - Several other spells are equal for both.

____________
Ven a [url=http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.es/]La Torre de Marfil[/url]

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kallen
kallen


Known Hero
posted January 14, 2007 06:09 PM
Edited by kallen at 15:28, 15 Jan 2007.

No retaliation is a permanent skill, and that is strength of Naga(+morale). Death Blow is only 20% chance to exsist.
____________
From the beginnin' to end Losers lose, winners win This is real, we ain't got to pretend The cold world that we in Is full of pressure and pain I thought it would chane
But its stayin' the same

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