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| Thread: stronghold vs fortress |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Pengu
Hired Hero
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posted January 19, 2007 06:57 PM |
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Well, that might be true if you somehow start with an infinte number of resources so you will have exactly the same nbrs of each lvl.
it just doesn't work that way...
Cyclops are a non factor cause of their low nbr and late introduction in the game.
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tenzor
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 20, 2007 01:06 AM |
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Quote:
...and it seems to me that the Cyclops King is one of the least cost-effective units in the game, along with the Wyvern Monarchs, Scorpicores, and Ghost Dragons.
Kings are one of the few cases where I more often than not keep a unit non-upgraded until everything else is built and I'm totally in the black, funds-wise.
Low level units are usually less cost-effective than high level ones in HOMM III (only in HOMM IV, level 1 units are available for best price). Their dwellings are more expensive, but almost in all games, they will pay off for sure. So I think that Cyclops King, Wywern Monarchs and Scorpicores are expensive for its level, but not in comparison with most of lev 1-5 units. Ghost dragons are not less cost-effective than archdevils or angels/archangels or giants/titans, IMHO.
But I agree that it's often better to keep Cyclops not upgraded some time, especially if you are low on money and resources.
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Yanzhangcan
Known Hero
*Dance*
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posted January 20, 2007 06:52 AM |
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I think this conversation has gone into cyclopes, of course I love cyclopes, but honestly, it's not going to be a wyvern vs cyclopes in every battle. The deciding factors make a cyclops a more strategic unit, and I believe that wyverns are useful, but only in the first couple of weeks.
Cyclopes in stacks of 10 or more can deal a horrific amount of damage, and you can get an army of that size in about 3 weeks.
Rocs/Thunderbirds can take out wyverns anyway, their numbers outstrip wyverns
Wolf riders are useless Imo.
Goblins are fair foot units as they move pretty well.
Orcs are rather useless, but are useful for assisting the cyclopes in ranged attack.
Ogre magi are awesome. Good health, slow which makes them good for defending your archers. Plus the bloodlust spell is good for strength for your goblins and rocs. Wolf raiders are useful after the main attacks have happened, allowing them to attack twice without retaliation.
Behemoths are powerful, deadly and cause panic and widespread ruin. A must for any stronghold army.
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Yanzhangcan
Known Hero
*Dance*
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posted January 20, 2007 07:11 AM |
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Gnolls are very basic units, quite like the troglodyte and skeleton in stats.
Lizardmen are the only ranged units in fortress, they are quite weak in melee combat and don't deal a lot of damage to opponents unless you have a large number of them.
Serpent flies are useful addition to the fortress, they block the enemy archers and allow your slower troops to get into the action.
Basilisks are good level 4 units, they are up there with the best. Good all around stats and a nice ground unit.
Gorgons! The best level 5 unit! Stacks of ten or more can take down an azure dragon! 
Wyverns are a very basic, weak unit. Upgraded they have a useful abitity, but fall short of many of the other level 6's, except mantocores.
The hydra = good against everything! Send it across the field, destroy archers while dealing damage to foot units at the same time.
This is my opinion, I double posted but that is to compare the two castles.
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stevelong
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 20, 2007 07:33 AM |
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Stronghold Strategy
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I think this conversation has gone into cyclopes, of course I love cyclopes, but honestly, it's not going to be a wyvern vs cyclopes in every battle.
After playing this game for awhile now, I'd give you this as a winning strategy --
1. Go with stronghold
2. start with two heroes, but collect all your given troops to your best attack strength hero
3. Spend the first week entirely getting to Castle and Capital, while your main hero gathers chests, etc to spike up his/her credentials, and the other grabs resources
4. Keep your main hero within range, in case you are attacked -- most times you won't be until the middle of the second week
5. By then you are loaded with resources and should be starting up the highest level creatures
6. By day 2, week three, you should be ready to ride -- with 3 Behemoths, 9 t-Birds, about 21 Orcs, etc. -- and making at least 4000 a turn -- this allows you to keep transporting more personel to your main hero -- leaving behind a good contingent of Orge Mages and goblins to defend.
Cyclops are a luxury -- a safe source of crystals needs to be secured -- by then they make great castle defenders or if you have a line of supply, you can get some to your main hero.
With Shiva and a good supply of birds, which you should have if you follow this method of development, you'll have a strong seige army that should be way ahead of any of the other town types at this point -- UNLESS you are playing a very large map and it takes you too long to reach them.
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted January 20, 2007 08:35 AM |
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Edited by HeymlicH at 08:45, 20 Jan 2007.
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I like both of them. Stronghold can develop faster, I think. Fortress has the most powerful creatures, overall. With stronghold it is easy to rush an opponent. You get T-Birds and Behemoth's early. Cyclop dwelling is expensive and built late, so you don't have large numbers. I often find myself rushing a castle, just with Behemoths and T-birds, any other slot filled with one cyclops king. This is the disadvantage of fortress: It is hard to take castles early.
@Steve: Usually I build to capitol first. Most others don't, and they have their reasons. This is because of the type of maps I'm playing - large and poor maps in SP on hardest settings. Stronghold is the only town where I sometimes go for a level 7 dwelling in week one. I think to present a capitol-on-day-8-build as a specific stronghold strategy is ... not so good advise. And for the cyclops kings - this is the very last unit I would keep as castle defender. I rather see them as castle attackers 
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JungleMan
Hired Hero
Funkenstein
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posted January 20, 2007 10:11 AM |
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Quote:
Serpent flies are useful addition to the fortress, they block the enemy archers and allow your slower troops to get into the action.
And ... they're dead. Serpent flies cannot handle all enemy troops by themselves. So, you have to be careful when sending SF and WM on the enemy's side.
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted January 20, 2007 10:40 AM |
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I see it the same way. Sending in these weak fliers first is not a good strategy when playing fortress. This may work with dragons, but not with flies. Move in the powerful ground troops first and use the fliers as support.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 20, 2007 02:18 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 14:18, 20 Jan 2007.
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Quote:
Quote:
I think this conversation has gone into cyclopes, of course I love cyclopes, but honestly, it's not going to be a wyvern vs cyclopes in every battle.
After playing this game for awhile now, I'd give you this as a winning strategy --
1. Go with stronghold
2. start with two heroes, but collect all your given troops to your best attack strength hero
3. Spend the first week entirely getting to Castle and Capital, while your main hero gathers chests, etc to spike up his/her credentials, and the other grabs resources
4. Keep your main hero within range, in case you are attacked -- most times you won't be until the middle of the second week
5. By then you are loaded with resources and should be starting up the highest level creatures
6. By day 2, week three, you should be ready to ride -- with 3 Behemoths, 9 t-Birds, about 21 Orcs, etc. -- and making at least 4000 a turn -- this allows you to keep transporting more personel to your main hero -- leaving behind a good contingent of Orge Mages and goblins to defend.
Cyclops are a luxury -- a safe source of crystals needs to be secured -- by then they make great castle defenders or if you have a line of supply, you can get some to your main hero.
With Shiva and a good supply of birds, which you should have if you follow this method of development, you'll have a strong seige army that should be way ahead of any of the other town types at this point -- UNLESS you are playing a very large map and it takes you too long to reach them.
I guess you've never played online so far? You would change your tactic pretty fast when u faced some human opponents who killed ya week 3 with way more army than u described...and much higher stats on their main hero...
Come to Gamespy and take a challenge..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Fortress_fan
Disgraceful
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posted January 21, 2007 12:24 AM |
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Quote:
Spend the first week entirely getting to Castle and Capital, while your main hero gathers chests, etc to spike up his/her credentials, and the other grabs resources
You take EXP. and rush for capitol? Let me guess that you play on Easy or Normal difficulty. Coz doing such things is noobish. Rush for Level 7 paid by chests and such.
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stevelong
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 21, 2007 12:26 AM |
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Quote:
I guess you've never played online so far? You would change your tactic pretty fast when u faced some human opponents who killed ya week 3 with way more army than u described...and much higher stats on their main hero...
Come to Gamespy and take a challenge..
I played a lot online -- and did great -- but that was (holy smokes) six years ago. One of the things I was trying to figure out with my first post is whether we're talking about the same game. I saw in some other thread that creature ratings were changed in an update. The PC is gone, but I still have a Mac version (HOMM Complete) that I can run on an old OS, but now i don't think it's the same game (or is compatible). I sure do miss this great game and playing online.
When you say <<some human opponents who killed ya week 3 with way more army than u described...and much higher stats on their main hero...>> I think it ain't the same game, unless you are playing on maps that are rich in gold and resources. Stronghold's advantage was that it could generate higher level creatures pretty fast without too many OUTSIDE resources. And if you had the gold from being a Capitol, you could load enough of an army to begin taking other towns -- which changes everything.
I'll see what I can do with Gamespy and maybe take you up on this.
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stevelong
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 21, 2007 12:43 AM |
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Quote:
@Steve: Usually I build to capitol first. Most others don't, and they have their reasons. This is because of the type of maps I'm playing - large and poor maps in SP on hardest settings. Stronghold is the only town where I sometimes go for a level 7 dwelling in week one. I think to present a capitol-on-day-8-build as a specific stronghold strategy is ... not so good advise. And for the cyclops kings - this is the very last unit I would keep as castle defender. I rather see them as castle attackers
Going to capitol first is a gamble that should pay off with stronghold, if you're not overrun before it starts paying off. Like I said -- I'm not sure I'm talking about the same game. If there's lots of gold and other resources lying around, then opponents can keep up with the advantage you get in the income from having a Capitol and the low reqs needed to get a strong army quick.
Cyclops Kings were for later in the game -- in the meantime they were great defenders. The idea always was to have your main hero rush another town as soon as possible -- that gave you a new source to fill army slots -- and you already had the gold to pay for them. In multi-player, taking towns changed everything. With a mixed army, you're no longer talking stronghold versus fortress. But for that first surge, nothing compared with stronghold.
Maybe I'll invest in a PC again just so I can play HOMM online again.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 21, 2007 12:53 AM |
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It is still the same game we are talking about. Patches didnt change the whole gameplay. Just some minor problems.
The question "Capitol or Dwellings?" was discussed pretty often here. If u go for Capitol first, u may have big money, but no army to buy. If u go for dwellings first, u can buy highlevel troops only and do harder fights for money (stores, treasuries, nagabanks etc...) and build your capitol later. But u will still have the troops available in town. You can't win fights with money...only with troops...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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stevelong
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 21, 2007 01:57 AM |
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The Stonghold Advantage
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It is still the same game we are talking about.../quote]
Somewhere else here I read about level one guys getting big number upgrades with the updates -- so that does change some things.
Quote:
The question "Capitol or Dwellings?" was discussed pretty often here.
If u go for Capitol first, u may have big money, but no army to buy. If u go for dwellings first, u can buy highlevel troops only and do harder fights for money (stores, treasuries, nagabanks etc...) and build your capitol later. But u will still have the troops available in town. You can't win fights with money...only with troops...
It depends on how long you can hold out. Starting up Behemoths in wk 2 instead of wk 1 loses you 1 Behemoth for the rest of the game. Getting to T-Birds in wk2 loses you 3 T-Birds for the rest of the game. If your hero can be building up ratings instead of scavenging, you don't have to worry about doing harder fights for money -- you're after towns. Stronghold lets you build up without too much scavenging, which was its advantage. But you have to change plans if you're about to be attacked. Fortress wasn't as good at this.
What I was saying was that it also depends how much gold and resources are out there on the map. If opponents can keep up with your income flow by scavenging, then the advantage of Stronghold goes away.
Anyway, I think I just reduced my post count.
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Jkwo
Hired Hero
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posted January 21, 2007 03:13 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
...and it seems to me that the Cyclops King is one of the least cost-effective units in the game, along with the Wyvern Monarchs, Scorpicores, and Ghost Dragons.
Kings are one of the few cases where I more often than not keep a unit non-upgraded until everything else is built and I'm totally in the black, funds-wise.
Low level units are usually less cost-effective than high level ones in HOMM III (only in HOMM IV, level 1 units are available for best price). Their dwellings are more expensive, but almost in all games, they will pay off for sure. So I think that Cyclops King, Wywern Monarchs and Scorpicores are expensive for its level, but not in comparison with most of lev 1-5 units. Ghost dragons are not less cost-effective than archdevils or angels/archangels or giants/titans, IMHO.
But I agree that it's often better to keep Cyclops not upgraded some time, especially if you are low on money and resources.
Now that I think about it, I think you're right about high lvl vs low lvl cost effectiveness, but I would strongly disagree with you on the Ghost Dragons. For me, being attacked by 11 GDs is a welcoming sight compared to running into 10 ADs, 9 AAs, or 9 titans, which are all roughly the same price.
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tenzor
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 21, 2007 05:48 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
...and it seems to me that the Cyclops King is one of the least cost-effective units in the game, along with the Wyvern Monarchs, Scorpicores, and Ghost Dragons.
Kings are one of the few cases where I more often than not keep a unit non-upgraded until everything else is built and I'm totally in the black, funds-wise.
Low level units are usually less cost-effective than high level ones in HOMM III (only in HOMM IV, level 1 units are available for best price). Their dwellings are more expensive, but almost in all games, they will pay off for sure. So I think that Cyclops King, Wywern Monarchs and Scorpicores are expensive for its level, but not in comparison with most of lev 1-5 units. Ghost dragons are not less cost-effective than archdevils or angels/archangels or giants/titans, IMHO.
But I agree that it's often better to keep Cyclops not upgraded some time, especially if you are low on money and resources.
Now that I think about it, I think you're right about high lvl vs low lvl cost effectiveness, but I would strongly disagree with you on the Ghost Dragons. For me, being attacked by 11 GDs is a welcoming sight compared to running into 10 ADs, 9 AAs, or 9 titans, which are all roughly the same price.
Total prices:
11 ghost dragons = 33 000 gold + 11x mercury (38 500 total)
10 archdevils = 45 000 gold + 20x mercury (55 000)
9 archangels = 45 000 gold + 27x gems (58 500)
9 titans = 45 000 gold + 18 gems (54 000)
So 16 or 17, not 11 Ghost dragons are available similar price as the other 3 armies. If splitted to several stacks, I would prefer even 9 archangels than 16 GDs on enemy side.
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Jkwo
Hired Hero
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posted January 21, 2007 11:54 PM |
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Hahah.. jeez, I thought they were 4k a piece for the longest time. My bad.
Anyways.. I think they should be the same price as phoenixes, which is not the case.
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