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| Thread: Is there good and evil in Heroes 5? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted January 18, 2007 10:13 PM |
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nice post Geny, but bad news, we now have 5 factions that are on lawful, we need to be more fussy
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 18, 2007 10:17 PM |
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I see your point... hmm....
Ah well, who needs balance anyway?
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Fortress_fan
Disgraceful
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posted January 18, 2007 10:30 PM |
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But what about the naga Sanctuary in the second add-on? Is it prue neutal?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 18, 2007 11:03 PM |
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I'll tell you when the second add on comes out, IF there will be a second add on and IF the naga sanctuary will be in it.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 19, 2007 09:49 AM |
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Well.. I kinda don't agree with necro being lawful. They are lead by necromancers, but those necromancers do whatever-they-want, no one stands above them, and I'm not seeing any laws they'd obey.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 19, 2007 10:55 AM |
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My belief as well. They may believe in a darker aspect of the order dragon but still don't act in a lawful way. Check the heroes descriptions and you'll see that more or less they act for themselves though not really in a chaotic way.
Somebody tried to analyse it from the undead point of view. No, the undead themselves have nothing to do with the faction's morality. It's the necromancers who shape the faction(much as the wizards in academy) with only the vampires ans liches as thinking creatures. And in their minds exist the need to survive but also harm the living as revenge.
Some necros just ended up there as Deirdre who doesn't have independent thought, Kaspar and Orson who wouldn't really fit anywhere else and Raven who was driven out of the Silver Cities. So it's more of a faction with scum and misfits!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 19, 2007 02:03 PM |
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which leads to neutral evil.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 19, 2007 02:18 PM |
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Quote:
which leads to neutral evil.
Exactly 
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted January 19, 2007 02:55 PM |
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You can't get my theory:
1. We have 4 good heroes in 4 reces:
Academy, Haven, Sylvan, Fotress
2. We have 3 bad heroes in 3 races:
Inferno, Necropolis, Dungeon
OK, we need +1 might bad guy --->>> the orgs.
= 8 races
We need:
2 - good-chaos races (Sylvan, Fotress)
2 - good-law races (Haven, Academy)
2 - evil-chaos races (Inferno, Dungeon)
2 - evil-law races (Necropolis, Stronghold)
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted January 19, 2007 03:32 PM |
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If I assume that being good is helping and doing nice things to people, and being evil is doing bad thing to people and make them suffer, so this is my summary:
Haven
Lawful. There are clear rules of how things should be. There are classes like kings, priests, etc.
About good or evil-hard to say. Sometimes good and sometimes evil.
In the first campaign they fought against the demons but in the third (untill the end) they allied with undeads and fight against the good factions.
Inferno
Chaotic evil, like Geny said.
Do a lot of chaos through all Ashan's story, do evil things and fight against the good factions.
Agreal is good, but I don't ascribe importance to that, because he is not a regular average demon.
Sylavn
Definitely good. Will never lie or betray, fight with good factions and against evil.
Even when the Necromancers controlled the Griffin Empire and attacked the Silver Cities, they helped the Wizards.
They are not chaotic, just want harmony and peaceful world.
But they are not lawful, there no laws there at all...
They are in the middle between being lawful and chaotic.
Academy
Quite lawful. They have their laws, the classes ,their senate (The Circle of Nine), etc.
Most of academy population is summoned or created by the Wizards.
The actual Wizards are good (like Syrus, Zehir) but most of the population are neutral. So the whole race probebly is between good and neutral.
Necropolic
The Nacromancers are the evil Wizards. But only the actual Necromancers, the heroes.
The most of the population is raised dead.
A Bone Dragon could be good Green Dragon before he was raised, or mabey evil Shodow Dragon.
The point is, that the most of the undeads are neutral, because you can't know what they were before they were raised, and as undead, they are are controlled by Necromancers.
So it's exactly the opposite of Academy: Between evil to neutral.
They are definitely chaotic. They just want to controll the world.
Dungeon
Very lawful. Clans, rules, classes, etc.
Every clan has his own alignment. Some clans are good and some clans are evil.
Like Shadowbrand, the campaign's clan is good. It prevented the demons to get to Isabell, that they thought she was good.
But Soulscar clan is allied with the demons and it's evil.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 20, 2007 01:37 PM |
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Okay ... there's a lot of talk about alignment here. I think a quick recap from the Dungeons and Dragons world would be in order, since that is basically where this scheme originated. Let me transfer losely from the Players Handbook, 3rd edition. Remember that individual persons might have alignments that differ from that of their race or faction (thus, Queen Isabell does not represent the average Haven alignment).
Alignment
A creature’s general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment: Lawful good, neutral good, chaotic good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, lawful evil, neutral evil, or chaotic evil.
Alignment is a tool for developing (...) identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting (...). Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types or personal philosophies, so two characters of the same alignment can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent.
Good vs. Evil
Good people and creatures protect innocent life. Evil people and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.
"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.
Being good or evil can be a conscious choice. For most people, though, being good or evil is an attitude that one recognizes but does not choose. Being neutral on the good-evil axis usually represents a lack of commitment one way or the other, but for some it represents a positive commitment to a balanced view. While acknowledging that good and evil are objective states, not just opinions, these folk maintain that a balance between the two is the proper place for people, or at least for them.
Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral rather than good or evil. Even deadly vipers and tigers that eat people are neutral because they lack the capacity for morally right or wrong behavior.
Law vs. Chaos
Lawful people tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.
Chaotic people follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.
"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.
Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.
Devotion to law or chaos may be a conscious choice, but more often it is a personality trait that is recognized rather than being chosen. Neutrality on the lawful-chaotic axis is usually simply a middle state, a state of not feeling compelled toward one side or the other. Some few such neutrals, however, espouse neutrality as superior to law or chaos, regarding each as an extreme with its own blind spots and drawbacks.
Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral. Dogs may be obedient and cats free-spirited, but they do not have the moral capacity to be truly lawful or chaotic.
The Nine Alignments
Nine distinct alignments define all the possible combinations of the lawful-chaotic axis with the good-evil axis. Each alignment description below depicts a typical person of that alignment. Remember that individuals vary from this norm, and that a given person may act more or less in accord with his or her alignment from day to day. Use these descriptions as guidelines, not as scripts.
Lawful Good, "Crusader"
A lawful good person acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good person hates to see the guilty go unpunished.
Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion.
Neutral Good, "Benefactor"
A neutral good person does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them..
Neutral good is the best alignment you can be because it means doing what is good without bias for or against order.
Chaotic Good, "Rebel"
A chaotic good person acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.
Chaotic good is the best alignment you can be because it combines a good heart with a free spirit.
Lawful Neutral, "Judge"
A lawful neutral person acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.
Lawful neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.
Neutral, "Undecided"
A neutral person does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral persons exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.
Some neutral persons, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.
Neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you act naturally, without prejudice or compulsion.
Chaotic Neutral, "Free Spirit"
A chaotic neutral person follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral person does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral person may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.
Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can be because it represents true freedom from both society’s restrictions and a do-gooder’s zeal.
Lawful Evil, "Dominator"
A lawful evil person methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.
This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil persons have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.
Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.
Lawful evil is sometimes called "diabolical," because devils are the epitome of lawful evil.
Lawful evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil.
Neutral Evil, "Malefactor"
A neutral evil person does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.
Some neutral evil persons hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such persons are devoted to evil deities or secret societies.
Neutral evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents pure evil without honor and without variation.
Chaotic Evil, "Destroyer"
A chaotic evil person does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.
Chaotic evil is sometimes called "demonic" because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil.
Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend.
Source
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 20, 2007 10:52 PM |
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Alcibaides, i take my hat of to you. for some reason, we all think that its simply divided between good, evil, law and chaos. i still think that their are certian elements of that, but its over all shades of grey.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted January 22, 2007 04:29 PM |
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Nice clarifications. Now maybe people will understand what each other is talking about when they use the D&D terms.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 28, 2007 07:46 PM |
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i now think that heroes 5 is based on a series of enemies.
haven vs inferno
academy vs nercopolis
sylvan vs dungeon
fortress vs the naga faction (fire vs water, makes sense)
meh, its my veiw
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 28, 2007 08:08 PM |
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It pretty much is. However that's just an oversimplification as there are interests and personal feelings in the way but I agree that they started with this in mind.
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Mlai
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 09, 2007 01:10 AM |
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With the 2nd expansion, I think alignments go thusly:
Haven - lawful good
This is in principle. The campaign is a story about how a lawful good society was subverted and tricked into doing evil.
Sylvan - lawful neutral
It's impossible to describe a peaceful humanoid society as "chaotic," and Sylvan society is too orderly to be even "neutral." Just because they live in woods don't mean they have no laws and social classes. They have their own strict rules; no elf is gonna go cut down a forest to make a strip mall. They have a centralized monarchy, ruling over fiefdoms. They are neutral rather than good, because their religion/ethos is less about zeal and more about harmony.
Academy - neutral good
They're good because their founding history is good - a disciple of a great mage hero founded their cities. So they're not going to be evil in principle. But mages are kinda like mad scientists, they're individualistic and prize knowledge/discovery over law/order. They're not going to tolerate a bureaucracy that gets in the way of research, so their gov't would be more "free" and decentralized than Griffin's.
Fortress - lawful neutral
The dwarves are based on Celts, with clans and a high king. Living in great underground cities. Very lawful. Keep to themselves, very xenophobic, therefore neutral.
Necropolis - lawful neutral
They were neutral evil, because they were a loose collection of necromancers doing whatever they want, and their tools range from mindless undead machines to vengeful undead out to haunt the living. And their boss was Markhal, who was definitely out for himself. Because Necro society is mindless, and defined by its few masters, it's very prone to change. Now they have an all-powerful new boss (Arantir) who is all about obedience to the primordial goddess and maintaining the world's balance, so it instantly becomes lawful neutral.
Inferno - chaotic evil
This entire realm is like an overcrowded prison with no air conditioning, where the inmates are serving life sentences but are immortal. The only rule is the rule of the fist, and when they escape, they act like bats out of hell, raping and pillaging like there's no tomorrow, cuz there isn't.
Dungeon - lawful evil
Their sob story aside, centuries of persecution and banishment have turned them into a bitter, fragmented, merciless society. Kinda like terrorist organizations. They stick rigidly to the law of the clans because that's what it takes to survive. If you don't clanbang, you better be a badass like Raelag or you'd be dead in a day. Internecine political strife plagues this society, just like what you find in today's 3rd-world post-colonial post-exploitation nations. Raelag could've been the hero, favored by Malassa, to find a new way for his ppl, but he had the ability and not the will.
Stronghold - neutral good
They have laws and clans, but their free-range pastorial society means freedom is much more treasured, especially given their history of oppression. When a leader wants to convince his ppl, he's not going to be preaching about law, order, and ideals. He speaks of what would stir their hearts and boil their blood.
They're not evil. They hate their enemies but are quick to make friends.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 09, 2007 11:52 AM |
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Quote:
Sylvan - lawful neutral
It's impossible to describe a peaceful humanoid society as "chaotic."
They are neutral rather than good, because their religion/ethos is less about zeal and more about harmony.Quote:
You have not heard of Robin Hood's merry men right? The second sentence is just wrong.
Quote:
Academy - neutral good
They're good because their founding history is good - a disciple of a great mage hero founded their cities. So they're not going to be evil in principle.
But mages are kinda like mad scientists, they're individualistic and prize knowledge/discovery over law/order.
They're not going to tolerate a bureaucracy that gets in the way of research, so their gov't would be more "free" and decentralized than Griffin's.
Whoa what..? First two arguments are out of place and logic and the third you cannot know about.
Quote:
Fortress - lawful neutralKeep to themselves, very xenophobic, therefore neutral.
That still has nothing to do with neutrality.
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Necropolis - lawful neutral
They were neutral evil, because they were a loose collection of necromancers doing whatever they want, and their tools range from mindless undead machines to vengeful undead out to haunt the living. And their boss was Markhal, who was definitely out for himself.
That is the definition of chaotic evil(do what thou wilst).
Quote:
Stronghold - neutral good
They have laws and clans, but their free-range pastorial society means freedom is much more treasured, especially given their history of oppression. When a leader wants to convince his ppl, he's not going to be preaching about law, order, and ideals. He speaks of what would stir their hearts and boil their blood.
They're not evil. They hate their enemies but are quick to make friends.
They are not goody goody either, they did burn down innocent villages during the missions. And I'm not speaking about the towns that were hostile and could defend themselves. I did not see a will to promote general good other than killing the demons which does not really count.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 09, 2007 12:19 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 06:44, 10 Dec 2007.
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Haven
Lawful. There are clear rules of how things should be. Good (for the most part) with some people, clans, ect that are neutral or evil.
Inferno
Lawful evil. There is a system of laws, even if the strongest makes the laws. A very distinct twisted feudal system. They want to control everything, not just create general chaos. In fact I don't think any of the 'races' are chaotic. Just my opinon. Though Mlai's post does make sense. Could be considered Chaotic Evil.
Sylavn
Neutral Good. They are protectors of nature. When nature is threatened they can turn Neutral Evil, but otherwise they are Neutral Good. In my eyes they see the individual as more important then the whole, and believe that people should live as they want. As long as it doesn't hurt the forest or anybody else.
Academy
Lawful Neutral. Neither good nor evil, but with many and convoluted laws. A beuracracy at it's purest form. To get a form you have to fill out 10 forms...things like that. Or at least that is the way I see them.
Necropolipse
Lawful Evil. Like Inferno, only they have a bit more ridged 'laws'. Since they control the undead utterly, there is no backstabbing or confusion of who leads who. Absolute order, imposed by the most powerful. Lawful evil at it's best.
Dungeon
This one is hard to define. They have their own laws, made by the strongest of them, but have convoluted ways of getting arround them for their own benifit. Backstabbing, assassination, and 'temporary' alliences are their bread and butter. Closest to Chaotic you will find, but can be good neutral or evil.
Mostly Lawful Evil however. Or at least imo.
Fortress
May be even tougher to define then dungeon. They have a heirarchy, which would indicate Lawful, but are not nearly as strict about them as Haven. They are generally good. I would say neutral good leaning toward Lawful.
Stronghold
Chaotic Neutral (?). The rule of the fist/strongest but neither good nor evil. They are somewhat noble, but can be very violent. With enemies on both sides of the 'good' and 'evil' spectrum, I would put them somewhere in the Chaotic Neutral category.
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Message received.
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Mlai
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 09, 2007 03:10 PM |
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You have not heard of Robin Hood's merry men right? The second sentence is just wrong.
They're nothing like woodland outlaw rebels. They have their own centralized monarchy.
You're saying they're fighting oppression and robbing from the rich to give to the poor? The canon says that they mind their own business in the woods, except for Tieru who actually cares about what's happening to the world outside.
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Whoa what..? First two arguments are out of place and logic and the third you cannot know about.
You need to put forth more than bias to make an opinion. Which someone with so many stars should know.
They're not going to be evil in principle, because their legendary founder is good. Would Jews rewrite the Ten Commandments? It's not about whether they stick to it in practice, because no one can predict that (look at Haven).
And of course you can know about the 3rd, if you know what scientists are like and if you read between the lines in canon. Why would they go off and found their own wizard cities if they didn't feel the need?
But with the passage of time, the gov't may have become rigid as all gov'ts do.
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That still has nothing to do with neutrality.
They keep to themselves. It's the definition of neutrality.
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That is the definition of chaotic evil(do what thou wilst).
They obey the rule of law when it's convenient. Hence Markhal's transient political maneuvers. They want dominion not chaos, otherwise they wouldn't be Necromancers.
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They are not goody goody either, they did burn down innocent villages during the missions. And I'm not speaking about the towns that were hostile and could defend themselves. I did not see a will to promote general good other than killing the demons which does not really count.
Actually, killing demons counts a lot. They expected the empire to honor their deeds after the war, and free them, give them land and self-rule. This suggests they are honorable themselves.
Whether or not they are generally hostile towards others is given their history. The only other ppl they ever knew are ppl who tried to oppress or kill them. Therefore you can't deem them evil by how they treat Haven/Academy. You can deem them good by seeing how they treat themselves. Unlike say demons and dark elves, they as a whole care about the welfare and future of their own ppl.
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They want to control everything, not just create general chaos.
I don't think demons will rest until everyone else is dead. They don't want to set up a stable gov't for humanoids.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 09, 2007 09:20 PM |
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Robin Hood and his men are the epitome of chaotic good, a usual example in the alignment's description. Of course they have their own rules and values, chaotic does not mean inefficient.
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You need to put forth more than bias to make an opinion. Which someone with so many stars should know.
That's funny. Principle often differs from reality and what once was may end up as a pervertion of its old meaning. And if they are not good in practice what good are we even talking about?
The parallel to mad scientists is an oversimplification even if they are individualistic and love knowledge. The fact that the concept is based on something familiar does not give you an accurate representation of their society or how they deal with things. Or what may have influenced their ways.
The do what thou wilst comment was on what you wrote, otherwise I generally agree.
I don't think of the orcs are evil, just not that good. I don't disagree with what you wrote as tradition and history often influence people's actions and beliefs but honor and good relations between the tribes does not make you good by itself. They are still eager to fight and kill or sell slaves. If they did not hate demons from their race's history I'm not sure they would offer help.
Neutral people can be good to those they know and trust.
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