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| Thread: Is there good and evil in Heroes 5? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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mlai
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 10, 2007 12:45 AM |
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I do not disagree that Merry Men is chaotic good, but just because they both live in woods don't mean elves are anything like the Merry Men.
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And if they are not good in practice what good are we even talking about?
There is no way to say "oh this society is whatever_whatever alignment for sure," because this isn't LotR. Look at what Haven went thru despite definitely being "lawful good." Therefore if you don't make certain generalities and concessions, there's no way to discuss this topic.
To refute someone's opinion (on Academy in this case), you have to offer contrary facts. In your case, you're just saying "I don't agree because the canon doesn't specify exactly." In that case, once again there's no way to discuss anything in this thread.
The Academy is blantantly based on the Islamic Golden Age, a renaissance of philosophy, culture and science. With 1001 Nights thrown in, of course.
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The Abbassids were influenced by the Qur'anic injunctions and hadith such as "the ink of scientists is equal to the blood of martyrs" stressing the value of knowledge.[5] During this period the Muslim world became the unrivaled intellectual center for science, philosophy, medicine and education as the Abbasids championed the cause of knowledge and established a "House of Wisdom" in Baghdad; where both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars sought to translate and gather all the world's knowledge into Arabic.
This contrasts sharply with Haven which is based on pre-Renaissance Europe.
The orcs are barbarians, so it's understandable to call them Neutral at best, rather than Good. But I don't think of Good as just Judeo-Christian type Good, when talking about diverse societies. Orc society has no Thou Shalt Not Kill/Steal/Covet Wife, granted... but that's too narrow a definition for an entire society. If a society is not stagnant, running only on inertia... if it actively strives for the betterment of its members without aiming to hurt other societies unnecessarily, then I say it's good. Orcs aren't out to ravage human lands. Haven hunts them and encroach on their lands. The big reason I call them good is because they were in the same hole as the Dark Elves, but they didn't sink into evil, they rose up and established a vibrant society with their own hands. It's kinda inspirational.
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Hotarubi
Known Hero
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posted December 10, 2007 02:27 AM |
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I'll hafta agree with Geny here.
While good and evil in the H5 world seem to be more defined, as some of you have taken to classify, in the real world, concepts such as good and evil are social constructs as evident in:
1) The changing context in time... morality changes from time to time, and so an essence to the good/evil dyad does not seem too probable.
2) The changing context in space... ever took a time to learn about another culture? Concepts such as good and evil may have similar equivalents in the form of morality in other cultures, but they are not necessarily understood in the Judeo-Christian moral philosophy, or Islam philosophy, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or Wiccan, and so on... in this sense, it seems the only thing "intrinsic" within each culture/society is its ability to apply and develop "rules" and conduct to ensure a working and fluid society, one that has its own identity set apart from the surrounding cultures with which they are embedded.
3) The difficulty in truly defining concepts of good and evil.
-Killing and murder as evil? What does that say about cultures that practice ritual sacrifice? And what about self-defense? Does killing apply to animals or not? What about war? If killing is evil, then every war should have been condemned from every angle.
-Rape and violence? But women in some Papua New Guinean and African tribes welcome rape and violence as a form of identity affirmation with the tribe and empowerment with the tribe as resistance to surrounding ethnic/tribal groups. Does that make them evil?
-What about Cannibalism? Again, some Papua New Guineans tribes did practice cannibalism as a symbol of victory over rival tribes that induced warfare.
-Homosexuality? Is it an abomination? Or a threat to the "masculine hegemony" rooted in imperialist/capitalist/Judeo-Christian status quo? What does that say about some cultures that did practice it as a form of initiation into being a man? Were Ancient Greece/Rome evil societies?...
-Even within Western culture, good and evil, as exemplified by the abovementioned topics (and certainly not limited to the above topics) does not seem to have a concrete base...
There's just too much gray area in every topic. If you look at things like these from a relativist point of view, then good and evil are just concepts perpetuated by cultural habituations. Take my views with a pint of salt.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted December 10, 2007 04:15 AM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 04:17, 10 Dec 2007.
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Well...
Good = to care for others, for everything (including things), to help others, etc..
Evil = to destroy things, to bring the end of the world (apocalypse), etc..
Tyrann evil = to dominate & enslave others
See the difference? 
I fullheartedly disagree 
I think people are wrong when they try to define good and evil as if they were actual things that CAN be defined. As it is, what's good and evil is purely subjective, there's nothing universally good or evil.
I found it funny when I found this Final Fantasy character explaining it in the exact way I pictured it "There is no good, there is no bad, just perspective and opinion". And that's what I agree with.
Even if 100% of all humans would agree that Elvin is evil, that doesn't mean Elvin is evil as a fact.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted December 10, 2007 04:52 AM |
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Edited by Daystar at 13:12, 10 Dec 2007.
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There is good and there is evil, but they are not seperate things. They are oposite sides of a bar.
Good Evil
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Many things are in the middle (blue section) and it is very rare that you get something much farther than that. And of course, good and evil are defined by point of view.
I think the Elves are as close to good as possible, and the Demons are the same, but on the evil side of things. Most other races fall somewhere in the middle.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted December 10, 2007 05:13 AM |
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Many people have different intentions and some thigns/actions/people are only good under some situations and times. Its very hard to define them.
I think the best proverb in this case is, If i give a child sugar, is it good? But he becomes fat and misreable because of it then am i evil?
Id say it depends on intention and knowledge there as an example. The child isnt really all that responsible if he doesnt know.
But lets say i give you ten of a currency of your choice and you spend it on beer and get a hangover and miss work.
I dont actively know what you were going to spend it on and it was your own choice, Unlike the previous example. in this case your only being good. Even if you knew he was going to spend it on beer.
But lets say someone gives you a poisoned cookie that makes you sick. Thats outright evil, even if you didnt know it was poisoned its evil that you handed off something like that to someone else without checking it.
Id say there are things that are obviously evil or obviously good, but theres that spectrum in between that is subject to the persons knowledge and situation. If i stick a sword for you out of vengeance, its debatable if its good or evil. If i do it to save others its outright good. If i do it for fun then its outright evil.
Indeed though, good and evil change as society does. But most things always will and have stayed outright evil,
If a bunch of people on an island kill and eat the other its still evil. They just dont consider it evil yet. If theyre modernized they will probably look back on it as evil. Undoubtedly some things we look at as evil are not and some things that are good are not, like being homosexual. If everyone becomes like that the human race will die , Which would make it good for it to be considered evil. But if someone is homosexual, and its a very small part of all of the population , is it not evil to tell him not to be?
id say my personal opinion is no , if its done just with persuasion as its unfair to treat one person differently then you would treat 6 billion others if they were as well . But if you killed that one, Then its evil . But if you killed 6 billion people that were homosexual and very old, It wouldnt matter as the human race would be doomed anyway.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 10, 2007 07:03 AM |
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For every rule there are exceptions. I disagree that there is no good or evil however.
Killing, as a rule, is evil. The exceptions are if protecting yourself or another. Yes, I am against the death penalty. Not because a killer/ect might not deserve it, because we sink to their level when doing so. Heck I am even for it in some cases, but that does not make it any less wrong.
Rape is evil. Now, rape is not neccessarily sex with violence. Some people for some reason do enjoy that. No, I am talking totally non-consensual. It is wrong period. Now I am sure somebody can come up with a convuluted excuse, but again exceptions..not the rule.
Though some societies might encourage or even force the issue, that does not make it any less abhorrent.
Generosity is good. Again, not that some convoluted examples might change that, they are exceptions and not the rule.
The way good and evil are percieved may change according to the society. I won't argue that. However, just because a society accepts/practices/does something does not change the basics of good and evil. Somethings were done in the past that were evil and defined as good. I am sure there are a couple of the reverse true also. That didn't change what was actually good and evil, just the societies veiw of it.
There may be shades of grey in everything, but that does not mean that good and evil do not exsist.
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Message received.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 10, 2007 10:47 AM |
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I'll hafta agree with Geny here.
Woohoo! I remember this thread, it's from the time I tried to be serious...
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The way good and evil are percieved may change according to the society. I won't argue that. However, just because a society accepts/practices/does something does not change the basics of good and evil. Somethings were done in the past that were evil and defined as good. I am sure there are a couple of the reverse true also. That didn't change what was actually good and evil, just the societies veiw of it.
You do understand that this is the kind of attitude that lead to "religious" wars throughout the years, like the crusades and the jihad. A point of view which says - my perception of good is right and theirs is wrong is a very dangerous one.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 10, 2007 11:08 AM |
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Only if really taken in a zealous stance. See good/evil do not change. Our understanding of it does. However, just because I understand good and evil to be one thing, doesn't mean it is correct. I could be misunderstanding true good and evil as much as the next person. I am not a zealot who would force my veiw of good and evil on anybody. I would like to hear any arguments for the cases I made being untrue however, not considering exceptions. There are exceptions to everything, that I agree wholeheartedly with. Society can practice whatever it wants, that doesn't mean I have to like or even accept it. If a law was passed today saying that everybody had to go out and kill one person, even if it was a law, that does not mean I would do so.
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Message received.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 10, 2007 11:19 AM |
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If a law was passed today saying that everybody had to go out and kill one person, even if it was a law, that does not mean I would do so.
Even if it somehow means that its the only way to save humanity? or the planet Earth?
Good and evil is defined by circumstances. Of course, you can say that in that case killing people is not good, it's a neccessary evil, but in that case the boundries between good and evil become so thin that it gets very hard to tell the difference.
P.S. sorry if I made you look fanatic in my previous post, now that I read it, it's clearly over top.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 10, 2007 11:23 AM |
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@Mlai
Ok let's forget the merry men, they were an example of a peaceful humanoid society that can be considered chaotic.
I did not strictly refer to an alignment because in the real world that's not possible - people can have one, countries not. I was referring to what you wrote. Still countries can have bad practices as the Nazi or Franco, that's what I had in mind. The orcs are inspirational indeed
@Moonlith
I am not evil? 
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted December 10, 2007 11:40 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:41, 10 Dec 2007.
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Evil, even if done in a good cause is still evil. Two things first . I didn't mean to imply you did make me sound like a zealot  , just clarifing. 2nd about your example. Yes, to save loved ones I would kill. I would not do so because of the law, however. I would do it purely to save my loved ones. It would still be an evil act. I would be doing it for purely selfish reasons.
A mob boss could donate millions of dollars, to ease a guilty conscious (or even to try to put suspicions off of him), to say children cancer research. Though on the surface it would SEEM a good act, the motive behind it negates that. Yet how could such a thing be considered evil? People don't want to consider it evil, because it is 'for the children'. If I was running a charity such as that, I know I would care less who donated for what reason.
hmm maybe we should start another thread..this is getting way OT hehe. Anyhow. It really does not matter if a society says something is 'ok'. There have been societies which have said "Rape pilliage and plunder will get you into 'heaven'." That doesn't make rape pilliage and plunder a good thing. I don't judge people, however, they can see good and evil however they wish. That doesn't change what good and evil are, just their view of it. Just like my view doesn't change what good and evil are (is? I stink at grammer)
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Message received.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 10, 2007 11:50 AM |
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I like going OT.
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There have been societies which have said "Rape pilliage and plunder will get you into 'heaven'." That doesn't make rape pilliage and plunder a good thing.
And what if, hypothetically, a person who suffers a lot in his life lives the best life after he dies, an eternal life... wouldn't it be good to make him suffer a few decades to him happy for eternity?
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted December 10, 2007 12:26 PM |
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Often evil is used by people as a way of diverting blame. Just look at someone who lives in the third world making a living melting down old computer parts to get the precious metal inside them. They need the money that the job provides them to feed their family. However, at the same time the chemicals used, the fumes and waste produced causes horrible pollution to the surrounding areas, which could hurt everyone in the long term but most people don't have the education to understand the consequences. Then there are the companies who dump the discarded computers in those countries. They don't have anywhere else to dump that stuff and they say that the people who use that trash benefit from it. Then there's us, the people who support the companies that dump the discarded computers in third world countries. We use computers to make a living, but when we throw out old computers we don't care where it's dumped just as long as it's not in our backyard. So who's evil here? A lot of harm is being done and everyone is partially responsible. Are you going to put more blame on one group than the other? What exactly would that accomplish?
That's what I liked about the Heroes 4 campaigns. You get more exposition so you understand the entirety of the situation before you can make a judgment. With the Order campaign, you actually get some perspective on why Gavin Magnus wants to do what he does. You can say that Magnus is evil for wanting to control everyone but then you might think like him if you had experienced thousands of years of war, destruction, and untold horrors. It's the same with Gauldoth. We know that he was fed on by a vampire when he was a child, he became an apprentice to a Necromancer, he became half undead when Enroth was destroyed, and he was hunted like an animal by ignorant mobs. You can't ignore all the horrible things that shaped Gauldoth and just label him as being evil.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted December 10, 2007 01:03 PM |
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For every rule there are exceptions. I disagree that there is no good or evil however.
Killing, as a rule, is evil. The exceptions are if protecting yourself or another. Yes, I am against the death penalty. Not because a killer/ect might not deserve it, because we sink to their level when doing so. Heck I am even for it in some cases, but that does not make it any less wrong.
I just can't see the logic in stating some things are 100% defined by either good or evil. You state killing is evil, by rule (but with exceptions). What do you base this on? I would suspect morals. And morals are as subjective as anything. If even 1 person on this planet would disagree with the idea that Killing is evil, then that would already disqualify the idea that it is universal. It remains nothing more but an opinion.
Just because 100% of the people think homosexuals are evil that doesn't necessarily make them evil by definition. I disagree that somethings are "obviously" good or evil, because "obviously" implies that a majority feels the same way. That doesn't mean it's no longer an opinion though!
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Rape is evil. Now, rape is not neccessarily sex with violence. Some people for some reason do enjoy that. No, I am talking totally non-consensual. It is wrong period. Now I am sure somebody can come up with a convuluted excuse, but again exceptions..not the rule.
Though some societies might encourage or even force the issue, that does not make it any less abhorrent.
I remember some who thought differently. For example, the old greeks I believe were the ones who thought that "rape" was a RIGHT of the strongest - they didn't associate it with evil or good.
You can find rape dispicable - I think everyone does - but that doesn't mean it can be defined as evil.
Take a look at nature, how many female animals get raped by the males Honestly I don't even think HALF of the sex in the animal kingdom is concented to.
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Generosity is good. Again, not that some convoluted examples might change that, they are exceptions and not the rule.
The way good and evil are percieved may change according to the society. I won't argue that. However, just because a society accepts/practices/does something does not change the basics of good and evil. Somethings were done in the past that were evil and defined as good. I am sure there are a couple of the reverse true also. That didn't change what was actually good and evil, just the societies veiw of it.
There may be shades of grey in everything, but that does not mean that good and evil do not exsist.
World War II. Germany vs America. The Allied soldiers and German soldiers did the exact same things. Yet, in the end, the Allied soldiers were conceived as heroes, whereas the germans were warcriminals and obviously evil.
Of all the examples you name, wether it is good or evil has only 1 single basis: Wether the majority thinks its good or evil.
You can say some things are exceptions, but that doesn't change a thing. Good and Evil I don't believe exist. Rather they are made up by the human mind through conciousness and morals, that tends to give respectable things the qualification "good" and morally bad things "evil".
Even if the entire world says the sky is red, that doesn't mean the sky IS red. There's a clear difference between what is thought and what IS, and I'm sure I don't need to remind anyone that good and evil only exist in the human world and mind. Therefor it is subjective and never a property of something.
@ Elvin: I will find myself forced to restrain myself from commenting on that ^^
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted December 10, 2007 01:15 PM |
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Easy way to solve this: Men are Evil.
There.
Problem solved.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 10, 2007 01:54 PM |
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I don't think that we can say that any faction is good or evil as a whole, since there are individual factions within each.
Academy- Neutral Good (Zehir), Neutral Evil (demon worshippers).
Dungeon- Neutral Good (Raelag), Lawful Neutral.
Haven- Lawful Good (Godric), Lawful Neutral (Lord Caldwell), Lawful Evil (Alaric), Neutral Good (Freyda, Duncan).
Inferno- Chaotic Evil (Sovereign), Chaotic Good (Agrael).
Necropolis- Neutral Evil (Markal), Neutral Good (Arantir).
Sylvan- Neutral, Neutral Good.
Fortress- Neutral Good (Wulfstan), Lawful Evil (Rolf).
Stronghold- Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Good.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Hotarubi
Known Hero
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posted December 10, 2007 02:30 PM |
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I was about to make some replies... but Moonlith and Geny, you took the words outta mah mouth. 
Although Geny, while I value your arguments, I question your avatar. Wrathmont, come on?! Haha, just kidding. Keep up the questions, it's good to think.
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Lord_Evil
Famous Hero
Evil lolcat
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posted December 10, 2007 02:35 PM |
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Fortress- Neutral Good (Wulfstan), Lawful Evil (Rolf).
Remind me what Rolf did that was so evil? i cant remember.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 10, 2007 03:13 PM |
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Although Geny, while I value your arguments, I question your avatar. Wrathmont, come on?!
I wanted an avatar that isn't used by anyone, so I decided to go for the less-used HoMM1, Warlocks were my favorite faction in HoMM1 and Wrathmont one of the more used heroes, so since Sandro was already taken (obviously)...
Back on topic:
After I wrote my previous post I thought about it some. I think I understand what Mytical is saying and partially agree with her.
There very well might be universal good and universal evil, however no human can claim he knows what they are. So, for our usage good and evil is defined by society.
A very good example for it is the Biblical God. If you're more or less familiar with the Bible, including the Old Testament, you'll see how God becomes more and more forgiving and less ruthless. That happened because the needs of the people changed and so did they perspective on life, the universe and everything ().
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skullman
Famous Hero
banned
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posted December 10, 2007 03:15 PM |
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Fortress- Neutral Good (Wulfstan), Lawful Evil (Rolf).
Remind me what Rolf did that was so evil? i cant remember.
he is against wulfstan and hangvul and prevented zehir from getting hangvul and wulfstan too Arkath
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