|
| Thread: Is there good and evil in Heroes 5? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Hotarubi
Known Hero
|
posted December 12, 2007 01:23 AM |
|
|
Quote:
OK, first off: Hi all, I just registered after a long time of lurking.
@Hotarubi: Don't apologize for your much needed post. I am so glad someone finally gave this topic some proper input. But there is one thing in it that bugs me. You start out by defining rape. Then you create a vision of a world where someone without any type of will is performed a sexual act upon. That is by the prior definition not rape. Since unconcentual means there actually was a choice to begin with. But this person can not have either concentual sex or unconcentual sex which pretty much makes the whole example quite useless. I guess this example was constructed with your intent of being as inoffensive as possibible. But the very sound general intent of your post remains and is by far the freshest breeze in this debate.
Haha, I've been lurking in these boards since 2005, and I never signed up because every question or comment I've wanted to mention have been previously said by another member. It was this topic that got me to sign up.
As a response to your body, yes you are correct. That's what I've been trying to get at. It is no longer rape, because in such an imaginary society, people do not understand it as rape in the way that Westerners do. So my point was to make a contrast between how we understand rape in the Western world (although I use this term broadly, because not everyone here is from the Western world) and how the non-consensual sexual act in the example is understood by the people living in that imaginary world. It is not understood as rape in that world, but in our own reality, it may be understood as rape, and to a certain extent, evil. With this subjectivity in mind, rape is not necessarily evil, as some of us may define it. Rape is only evil if we give it the means (laws, regulations, punishment, religious doctrine, social stigma, etc.) to be evil. And from this imaginary world, I used a slightly different example from the Gebusi tribe which may be considered rape (or child abuse, or homosexuality, or perversion) from the Western standpoint. But again, it is important to think of the context of where and when that sexual act is performed. According to the Gebusi, that ritual is a joyous occasion and not defined as "evil."
I'd also like to clarify the definition of rape. I should have been more careful with this. I only used the definition that I used because it was one of the first things I saw on the definition list, LOL. But I just realized, it may be a faulty definition because it consists of "intercourse." People may misconstrue this as necessarily in need of a penis force penetrating another human body part... which may mean to some that only males are capable of rape. I personally do not believe that. Women are still capable of ensuing forced sexual acts that's not based on mutual consent.
____________
|
|
Kalai
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted December 12, 2007 03:31 PM |
|
Edited by Kalai at 15:39, 12 Dec 2007.
|
Right, I understood what you meant, but your post made itself invalid, probably due to it being overly PC. In your example there is no rape in any meaning due to the the, and I feel the term victim is out of place here, I'll say unwillful participant is no more raped than an inflatable doll could ever be raped. While this may very well be nitpicking I still think it has some meaning.
With the addition of your last post I think we have finally taken a large step toward the final conclusion that all sane people must come to when discussing "good and evil" and the supposed existance thereof. Namely your well put passage about how things are evil when we give it the means, and the same is of course also true for things thought of as good. Now it has been mentioned before and also been repressed quickly enough by selfappointed good and evil signifier Mytical. In no way am I trying to belittle the suffering that she has been subjected to, but still she paints a very subjective picture and tries to forcefully graft this unto our psyches. She claims that since we can't appreciate the pain and nightmares and other problems caused by the deed. Well, I have a friend, a male friend, heterosexual, who was raped (sodomised) in a public lavatory in his midteens. He is not repressing any feelings of rage or expressing any more angst nor does he seem more, or less for that matter, disturbed than the rest of our circle of friends. While he of course had a bad time a few weeks after the incident he is not as they say "scarred for life". It has in fact been argued that a lot of the post traumatic problems arising from such abuse are caused by the common mis/conception that rape must cause such trauma to a human psyche that it must stay affected for years or even the rest of its existence. The point being argued that this is false and that it is the indoctrination that this suffering must take place that causes it in a lot of cases.
Edited a bit for readability reasons, but nothing big.
____________
|
|
knight-champ
Hired Hero
master of knights
|
|
posted December 14, 2007 12:21 AM |
|
|
actually there is good and evil in this game's factions,if haven knights attack who ever does not believe in their god,then why dont they attack sylvan,or acadmy,only attack demens and undeads?
____________
knight-master
|
|
Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
|
|
posted December 14, 2007 01:10 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Just because it is bad and damaging doesn't make it "evil".
Urgh... even if it's done with the sole purpose of self satisfaction?
That has got nothing to do with it.
Quote:
As pointed out before, those who are evil consider themselves to be good, and they consider those who are good to be evil, because they are their enemy. It remains subjective, and not a universal identification of anything.
There are many things in grey that can fall to this argument, but not all. I believe there is a universal good and evil. I think we mix up our discussion between good and evil in Heroes and in real life. In Heroes, or in a case where one fights another, I will not argue with the above argument (I just watched "The Kingdom" last night and the last words are the most important message of all). In real life, seriously, how can we justify a rape??
As an example, a rape could be justified with the thought patern: Right of the Strongest.
That doesn't make it fair, I agree, I would as well agree its bad and wrong. But it totally depends on your point of view on the subject. Again, it is subjective, and thus, in effect, it can never be a definition of anything. I think stars are pretty. But that's an opinion, it doesn't mean stars ARE pretty by definition.
The whole white - grey - black thing doesn't even apply. I sooner assume you disagree that evil and good are opinions? I would like to remind you Good and Evil don't exist in the animal world, just as Pretty and Ugly don't exist there. Only in the human world.
Quote:
Yeah. Not exactly something I discuss to strangers though. Would have been a second time, but my brother interviened. Sorry, but the people who have never been a victim of something so evil just don't seem to understand.
I'm sorry to hear that, and I can understand my points I'm making here can come across as crude to you. Believe me it's not my desire to hurt your feelings - I disapprove of rape as much as the next guy.
It's just I disagree as well it can be defined by "evil". See points made above.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted December 14, 2007 03:25 PM |
|
|
Animals just don't have the moral capacity and besides it's a matter of survival. The right of the strongest is a barbarian leftover of a simpler and savage past. An animal would not try to hurt your or torture you, you must have an evil nature to do so - a total disregard of feelings/morals/anything.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
skullman
Famous Hero
banned
|
|
posted December 14, 2007 04:05 PM |
|
|
what good and evil have the factions done
Haven: they are very holy fight demons worship a dragon of light and many more. the bad is they kill every one who doesn't belive in their god, they take orcs as slaves and treat them very bad after orcs help them, they made alliance with necromancers (thats just quenn isabel)
Inferno: the good is umm they haven't done anything good. the bad is they are nothing more than beasts who are against everything living and eat the dead. they have no respect for live so they are just evil.
Necropolis: Is actully split in two groups one is good one is evil. the good group (Arantir) are demon hunters who serve asha and kill demons. the evil group (markal) only make their undead troops do bad things like kill everything living lie too lords of realms so they will join them and then betray them and take their kingdom. terrible isn't it?
Dungeon: the good they aren't really much helping evil in war actully they don't fight much in wars normally they just fight other clans and there are some who want too help good in war (Raelag) by killing demons and undeads. the bad is they are thives steel everything, assasain people and some are in alliance with demons (soulscar)
Sylvan: the good is they are on the good side live peacefully in nature don't harm people unless they are defending almost just good no evil but there is some. the bad is they blamed the dark elves without evidence and then exile them and those who didn't leave are executed, it is actully their fault that dark elves became so vicious
Academy: the good is that they are very very smart they know alot about spells and use that for good they also know how too create things like golems and titans and also use them for good. the bad is they don't belive in any gods wich can cause some wizards too create a cult too worship something like urgash and another they don't help their allys (cyrus)
Fortress: the good is they are againest demons and do not rush peoples territory instead they use their army's too defend their people (wulfstan)the bad is they onced attacked the dark elves for no reason and often ally with their enemys (king tholgar)
Stronghold: not sure yet
____________
|
|
Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 08:34 AM |
|
Edited by Duncan at 09:03, 15 Dec 2007.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just because it is bad and damaging doesn't make it "evil".
Urgh... even if it's done with the sole purpose of self satisfaction?
That has got nothing to do with it.
I'm not sure if we're on the same wavelength. I mean if we go out to the streets and punch a guy because we think he's poor and doesn't deserve to be in the neighborhood, that's bad and damaging, ain't what we do evil?
Quote:
The whole white - grey - black thing doesn't even apply. I sooner assume you disagree that evil and good are opinions? I would like to remind you Good and Evil don't exist in the animal world, just as Pretty and Ugly don't exist there. Only in the human world.
That's exactly the point, which is why we can't have animal kingdom as comparison. Let's say we turn to Discovery and watch a hyena robbing dead gizale from a cheetah. Cheetah did the hunting but because it's less strong than hyena, hyena robbed it. It's a matter of survival here like Elvin said, there's no right and wrong. But are we gonna educate our children like "Hey if you're hungry just grab those breads from your friend smaller than you. Hit him if he refuses." Heck, no! That is not good, regardless of point of view.
As I said, in war, I agree good and evil depend on what each side fights on their belief. In such a case it's grey. But do we really have none that can universally be accepted as good and evil?? Talking about definition is hard, I know, but I was looking more into understanding of those terms. Leave the definitions to lingustics, or maybe even politicians. They can define a crime, no?
____________
But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
|
|
guarder
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 08:50 AM |
|
Edited by guarder at 08:50, 15 Dec 2007.
|
Quote:
Academy: the good is that they are very very smart they know alot about spells and use that for good they also know how too create things like golems and titans and also use them for good. the bad is they don't belive in any gods wich can cause some wizards too create a cult too worship something like urgash and another they don't help their allys (cyrus)
If they don't belive gods how can they then worship urgash? he is a god, well he isn't good, but every gods is not good
____________
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 08:52 AM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 08:54, 15 Dec 2007.
|
They were alluding to the fact that some wizards became necromancers. Ok, now explain to me how the necros are not 'bad'?
____________
Message received.
|
|
guarder
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 08:57 AM |
|
|
i'm not sure if that was evil, well it was, but the Wizards thought probably not. But the evil was when the Wizards began a civil war with the necromancers, well, if not, necromancers had probably ruled all the silver cities now
____________
|
|
Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 09:23 AM |
|
|
Quote:
If they don't belive gods how can they then worship urgash? he is a god, well he isn't good, but every gods is not good
Academy worships Urgash? I thought only Inferno.
____________
But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 09:25 AM |
|
|
Hmm yeah, Urgash is only inferno. Necro's worship a twisted version of Asha.
Just goes to prove if you don't pay attention to certain things you can get mixed up easy.
____________
Message received.
|
|
guarder
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 09:31 AM |
|
|
no i don't think they worshio urgash, but skullman think they can make some urgash cults
____________
|
|
Lord_Evil
Famous Hero
Evil lolcat
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 09:50 AM |
|
|
If Necromancers worship a twisted version of Asha, what intellegent Undead (Liches,wight,vamps) worship? The Necromancers?
____________
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 11:54 AM |
|
|
Actually I'm no longer sure it's a twisted version of Asha, the campaign with Arantir strongly implies that Asha although a dragon of order also has the portfolio of death. It would seem fitting.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 12:12 PM |
|
Edited by Moonlith at 12:13, 15 Dec 2007.
|
Quote:
That's exactly the point, which is why we can't have animal kingdom as comparison. Let's say we turn to Discovery and watch a hyena robbing dead gizale from a cheetah. Cheetah did the hunting but because it's less strong than hyena, hyena robbed it. It's a matter of survival here like Elvin said, there's no right and wrong. But are we gonna educate our children like "Hey if you're hungry just grab those breads from your friend smaller than you. Hit him if he refuses." Heck, no! That is not good, regardless of point of view.
As I said, in war, I agree good and evil depend on what each side fights on their belief. In such a case it's grey. But do we really have none that can universally be accepted as good and evil?? Talking about definition is hard, I know, but I was looking more into understanding of those terms. Leave the definitions to lingustics, or maybe even politicians. They can define a crime, no?
Well I think that's where we differ in opinion  I believe that, if Good and Evil were true entities and could be used to define something, then they'd be objective and exist even in the animal world. Since they only exist in the human world, it is something WE created, and thus, it is subjective, in my opinion, and can never be used to define anything or any action.
In a simular way, "pretty" can never be used to define something universally as "pretty", it's an opinion. Good and Evil are in the same catagory.
But I don't think we'll ever agree on that
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 12:24 PM |
|
|
Things are pretty simple as they are. Animals CANNOT understand/know good and evil, it's not in their nature. That fact does not mean it is not in ours. Animals are solely guided by their instincts, they don't/cannot care about doing something that will benefit/harm the animal kingdom or those around them. The fact that WE can is proof that we have the capacity for it not that it does not exist and is made up. Some things are made up so that we can coexist in harmony but even they are influenced by something deeper.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 12:37 PM |
|
|
|
But does that mean for a fact that Good and Evil are objective entities that can define something, which only us Humans are aware of?
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 12:42 PM |
|
|
A part of them is objective, the rest is dependent on the situation. And I did not say just us, just not the animals. I cannot claim to know all sentient lifeforms in this galaxy - I'm sure I'll miss one or two.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
|
|
posted December 15, 2007 12:46 PM |
|
Edited by Moonlith at 12:48, 15 Dec 2007.
|
Well as I said, I seem to hold a different view on that from the mainstream here I still believe Good and Evil are in the same catagory as pretty and ugly, with the difference that good and evil are much harder to distinguish as subjective entities.
I sooner believe the reason we label things good and evil is due to our CONSCIENCE and Moral opinions. Not because things ARE good or evil. That's just a little further connection the brain tends to make.
I think it's pretty, thus it IS pretty. A connection that gets further backed up when a LOT of people agree.
|
| |
|
|
