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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: In-depth Acadmy review
Thread: In-depth Acadmy review This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 28, 2007 11:24 AM bonus applied.
Edited by Doomforge at 11:28, 28 Jan 2007.

In-depth Acadmy review

Well, last time I found myself playing mostly Academy.. with it's amazing counters for every faction and beautiful design it's really enjoyable. Perhaps I don't have that much experience with academy yet, but I'll try Oh yes, no MMR here, because I kinda suck with this strategy.. I'll focus on "normal" strategies!

Heroes

Nur
Speciality: A hero that regains mana on combat? THe idea is cool and warlocks would get killed to get it.. too bad wizards completely don't need it, with their almost bottomless ammount of mana and arch mages working like an improved arcane training skill.. If you need mana that badly, go for intelligence, since enlightment is an obvious pick for a wizard. Bad speciality IMO..

Starting skills: SUCK! Sorcery may be good for MMR-like strategies, but not for ordinary wizard who focuses more on mass-light spells. Mana regen is again, worthless with godly mana ammount.

Spell: Eldritch arrow is good for creeping. A nice starting spell.

Rating: 3/10. Wasted speciality, wasted skills, only the spell is good.

Faiz
Speciality: The idea of his speciality isn't bad in fact, but it's so WEAK WEAK WEAAAK!! 70 damage on level 20? pathetic.. The most worthless speciality, if you ask me >_>
Starting skills: ouchh. Dark magic was never wrong. Too bad it won't help you too much in the earlygame. Average pick, good that it comes with master of pain, though.

Starting Spells: Vulnerability, ofc. Well, it won't help you much in the earlygame, sorry.

Rating: 2/10. Very bad speciality and poor starting spells. Skills may be decent, but nothing really amazing.

Galib
Speciality: The chance to trigger magic mirror is 10%+LVL*2%. For a level 15 Galib, it would be 30%. Much? Umm.. Sure, it can be a lifesaver and it's certainly funny to reflect an empowered lucky implosion when facing a warlock, but 30% isn't really something I'd depend on. His speciality increases the chance of reflecting the spell onto your enemy, so if you really like magic mirror..

Starting Skills: Luck is obviously good.

Starting Spells: Cleansing.. well, isn't too precious with your archmages having cleansing too. But an extra cleansing is never wrong.

Rating: 5/10. Rather average hero.. nothing special about him.

Narxes
Speciality: By reading the description of his spell, I thought he increases spellpower of the archmages or something.. which is wrong: he gives them simple ATT/DEF bonus like every other creature specialists. And it SUCKS, because Arch Mages are meant as offensive casters with great utility spells (cleansing, Righteous might..), not as warriors.. +DEF is not wrong, yes, but +ATT is worthless ~~

Starting skills: Enlightment is something you'd get anyway (15% chance per level). Nothing special, and intelligence isn't needed earlygame anyway.

Starting spells: Fist of wrath. Bah, useless spell, so poor in damage..

Rating: 2/10. Sucks like Faiz. If only he boosted ArchMages in other way than +ATT/+DEF..

Jhora
Speciality: For MMR freaks I still find the bonus very low (you'd need level 20 to get ONE POINT of initiative extra..).. Still, it can buy you an attack before your opponent's hero.. But with the huge randomness of ATB bars, I wouldn't bother.

Staring Skills: Again, for MMR freaks, sorcery is obviously a good pick. For other strategy, it ain't too good. Arcane training is not a bad thing, but ArchMages already provide that, and with the incredible knowledge it ain't THAT useful.

Spells: Eldritch Arrow. Good spell for the earlygame!

Rating: 8/10 for MMR fans, 4/10 for the rest.

Nathir
Speciality: LEVEL/3 bonus to spellpower for fireball isn't that bad.. but you won't have much use of it in the earlygame, yup. And fireball doesn't work with MOTW. But, you can still use it as AoE defencekiller, since Nathir starts with master of fire. It has it uses, yes. Note that it doesn't work with armageddon.

Starting Skills: Destructive+master of fire. Well, destructive is a must for wizards anyway, and master of fire is good if you want some nice debuffing, since it will usually give you more than a single expert-vulnerability cast.

Starting Spells: Fireball. Holy molly.. Level 3 spell! Well, it costs a lot of mana, though, so you may wont to get archmages ASAP and arcane training, perhaps. Otherwise a nice spell and nice for rushes too!

Rating: 7/10. I originally thought not very well about Nathir, but compared to Legions of worthless academy heroes, this one is not very bad. Too bad MOTW, one of the main strengths on wizards, won't help. But, if you want a nice rusher (and anti-rusher), and you like to tear enemy defenses down.. why not?


Razzak

Speciality: Boosts golems.. wait, why golems? I never even use them ~~ Damn, why there can't be a nice djinn booster out there? Ohh, anyway.. Razzak makes golems "almost" decent. They still need march of the golems, though, and with abysmall chance to learn logistics.. yeah, you probably won't get it. and "almost" makes a BIG difference.

Starting Skills: DEFENSE! Yeah, with 2% chance to get it it's really a precious skill. And it's need for power of endurance perk, which is good.

Starting spells: Haste.. well, nothing special in earlygame, but since you want to use light magic anyway.. may not be that bad if you get divine strength in the guild.

Rating: 4/10 If you want a rare skill.. pick him, otherwise don't bother.

Havez

Speciality: boosts gremlins. It would be good had wizard got a nice chance to learn attack (and battle frenzy), since it would make gremlins stronger offensively than master hunters, lol. But with 2% chance it's a waste. Sadly. A good thing is that he starts with so many master gremlins that you can easily reach 100+ in the first day. Joy!

Starting Skills: Warmachines. I really like these, but one thing to note: with academy, I don't need them. Creeps are either stopped by obsidian gargs' wall, or they focus unimportant gremlins while spells and archmages tear them apart. So.. you can do well without a tent, and ballista isn't THAT strong with wizards anyway. It's not deleb ;p

Spells: NONE, aww.. he starts with warmachines, though. But why no tent? ~~

Rating: 6/10. Can be useful with tent if you can't creep without him, but I found it not necessary with academy.



Damn, seems that Nathir's best.. but he sucks in fact. Oh well, academy heroes are wimps. No Deleb-like hero here.



Creatures

Master Gremlins - Nice initiative, cheap, poor damage. Good for havez, cuz he comes with a horde.. literally.. And they make nice meatshields. Yeah, shooters ignore the archmages and focus on these creatures if they are present on the field.. which is good, makes it possible to go without tent. They repair mechanical things too, but you don't really want to bother with creeping with golems, do you? Overall a nice utility creature: good to help you creeping, good to draw master hunters' attention. In late game you don't need them.
Rating: 7/10 for the importance in early-mid creeping, 3/10 lategame.

Obsidian Gargs - Wow, such a NASTY melee tank.. with ~80% survivability and immunity to most elements and magic (they are not alive, mind you - wasp swarm can't effect them, bye bye annoying sprites..), they really shine in the early-mid. They die slowly and come in incredible numbers, you'll never run out of them.. Redundant in lategame, though - no small shooters to protect in academy, not counting useless gremlins. And their weekly damage is the worst in game, if I remember correct. If you are a tanky-mage though, you may consider using them in lategame too, because they die so freaking slow, buying your phoenix and destructive spells much more time.
Rating: 8/10 earlygame, 2/10 for a non-tanky mage later, 6/10 for a tanky mage later.

Steel Golems - Initiative.. ouch. Speed. ouch. Damage ain't that good due to low growth, and survivability is around 70%, which is good, but nothing particulary great. A mediocre and painfuly slow unit. Magic-proof has its uses (like when creeping elder druids), though. Another unit a tanky mage should consider taking. Otherwise, don't bother.
Rating: 3/10, 5/10 if you want units to buy time for your MMR-like things.

Archmages - wonderful.. great in creeping, great as utility casters (cleansing, hell yeah.. bye bye puppet master) and buffers (righteous might). Their fireball isn't too bad either, and it's great in rushes, since it ignores defense as every other spell, making it good against knights or dwarves. Don't bother with their ranged attack, though. A good unit and it's speciality (-25% spell costs) is one of the most useful abilities in the game!!
Rating: 9/10

Djinn sultans - seems weak with 40 HP, but with horde building it actually offers survivability at 70%, which is quite decent.. and it's damage is unmatched by most level 5 and level 6 (!) units, with horde building ofc. In fact it's higher than emerald dragons, magma dragons, spectrals.. ouchh! 12 initiative, fast, flyer, can cast.. need more? Sure, may seem fragile because wizards lack DEF, but otherwise extremely good. Don't charge with them.. too precious. Take your time casting buffs (on titans, preferably..) and let the enemy spread a bit, then attack.
Rating: 8/10

Raksasha Rajas Ahh, if only teleport assault was easier to get (2% ~~).. They could use their dash, get TA and wreck havoc around.. well, they are slow, and 8 init makes it a while to get their action and activate dash. But after that, they are 16initiative powerhouses with huge attack, 140 HP and no-retal. Amazing. You REALLY want speed mini-artie with them.. obviously..
Rating: 7/10 (would be 10/10 with teleport assault)

Titan Beautiful unit (great job Ubi!) with a lot of firepower under bay.. No melee penalty makes him even bigger MoFo! Well, won't be deadly at start, because range penalty cripples the shooters badly, but after getting some things in range.. woah. Watch out for hero melee attacks and druids' lightning, they make a short work of titans.. Excruciating strike and TA'ed pitlords are their bane. Immunity to mind spells is a nice perk, though (can't get confused, puppeted, frenzied.. yeah!).
Rating: 9/10


A nice army, with many creatures having a secondary role. Earlygame army is good at creeping, midgame army is good at countering rushes, endgame army is powerful. That's all.

STRATEGIES VS. OTHER FACTIONS

Here's where academy shines.

Inferno
Killer strategy: Havez + Dark magic + frenzy/puppet master + Remote control skill.

Havez boosts your creeping to a point where you can almost reach Deleb's speed.. and you need it. You need a lot of cash, levels and resources. The army you'll face is going to be overgrown and the hero is goind to have HUGE levels. Creep like mad! You need darkmagic.. and the remote control ability.
What's it for? Well, Deleb will probably have tent and ballista. If you take control of tent, she will have absolutely NO way to counter puppet master or frenzy.. and it will easily destroy hellish force. And if ballista comes under your command.. well, she'll lose a powerful tool, and you'll gain one
Of course, darkmagic and remote can only cripple her army.. you still need to beat it. Well, titans can be useful, but excruciating strike and pitlords can kill them quickly.. so watch out. try to focus on raksashas, djinns, archmages.. get magic-resistance arties to counter the enemy's darkmagic and use archmages as cleansers.. and after a few dark spells, either start tossing implosions (motw) on remaining stacks, or ressurection on yours. Depends on what magic schools you've got. At least you don't need to worry about familiars: your mana is too godly even for them.

Dungeon
Killer Strategy: Jhora+Counterspell

Yes, that's all: Jhora and counterspell. Without destructive, most warlocks will become little wimps. Of course there are still warlocks that can go "melee", but counterspell kills their power of speed perk, making them wimpy aswell. You have to creep fast, get a huge army and attack quickly, before the opponent gets his army too big. The victory is quite easy, in fact. You may consider light magic: One buff will surely help your army, and one not-counterspelled empowered implosion won't end the game.

Sylvan
Killer strategy: Rush!

Pick any hero you want, preferably havez or nathir, get tons of gremlins, some archmages and obsidian gargs and go kill your enemy! Fireballs from nathir&mages will quickly melt down the hunters and druids, and without them, nothing can really stop you. This one is easy to perform and works almost everytime.

Dwarves
Killer Strategy: Pressure.

Dwarves are slow in develpment, so a rush may be good.. too bad guardpost makes it incredibly hard. Try to lay some pressure on enemy forces,raid their territories, steal the mines.. with spearwielders, bears and shieldguards he can't stop your mages and gremlins+nathir outside the city, and without resources he won't do a thing. Once titans come, get them and start the preparations for a final assault. don't forget that master of fire perk kills their overgrown defense!

Necropolis

Well.. not much of a killer strat here. I'd recommend destructive and light. Buff your army, preferably with mass deflect missile, then start tossing MOTWed spells. Nothing else comes to my mind, since necro has been reworked in 1.41/2.1, there is no need to think about strategy at the moment. We shall see how tough they are with their new necromancy

Haven

There is no killer strategy here aswell. The haven army scores tons of damage and their heroes toss tons of lite spells, so you can't really depend on your army, cuz it's inferior to their physical power. MoTWed destructive spells work wonders, though.

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 28, 2007 12:04 PM
Edited by Shauku83 at 12:26, 28 Jan 2007.

Nice to see more reviews Especially great was the example of Havez vs. Deleb, very good! Btw. it would be nice if everyone would say whether they play single/multiplayer, or are the strategies universal. Overall I play somewhat differently, and I am tempted to make a counterpart, but I'll just comment shortly for now...

VS. Haven

I would recommend Suppress Light for any wizard choosing Light Magic (actually I would recommend choosing Light Magic). If you add Dark there, you can make his army weep without being afraid of many Cleansings. Paladins will charge the weak Wizard army, if they use Paladins for Lay Hands it is away from scoring kazillion damage...

Summoning is too slow to stop Haven at late game.

About the Sorcery... Whether I use MMR (try to use...I ain't that skilled yet) or not, I find it invaluable to wizards. The troops aint that good, and they will start dying if you can't dominate with spells. I can understand Havez not taking Sorcery, as he can creep without extensive use of spells... but as for others, I want to spend that mana that is, oh so godly

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted January 28, 2007 12:35 PM

But Academy is probably the best with guilds and "cheap" stuff like hit and run. Stupid wizards will never put up a clean might fight It's just their attitude to do:
motw here,
motw there,
I have puppet master everywhere!

I suppose Jhora is the best choice for a main because she can score the most damage in a shortest period of time. Her sorcery speed with  
MOTW + Frenzy, Puppet Master(against big army) and
MOTW + Implosion, Chain Lightning(against smaller army)
can really shine and she is the best cleanser/counter-mass-speller as well.
I think at level 40 she even starts to cast regular spells faster than mass spells - not that it really matters but still a nice fact to notice - it means that there is a chance of Jhora acting 2 times(right after and right before a mass spell).
____________

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Archmage_Faiz
Archmage_Faiz


Disgraceful
Hired Hero
posted January 28, 2007 01:03 PM

Could you please explain one thing, what is MOTW?

And as I always said, Nathir is imba. Rushing with him is soooo fun!
____________
"For those who live in the past, there is no future."

/King Darios of Persia

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted January 28, 2007 01:12 PM

Quote:
what is MOTW?

Mark of the wizard...

About the main post itself, it probably took a lot of time to make, and it turned out good, but basically it doesn't show anything that most don't already know. The whole point of these topics is getting QP, as I see it... As soon as someone gets a star on something, a day or two later there's 4500 similar topics...
But what the heck And I guess this IS pretty helpful for people who don't play Heroes a lot and want to learn some tactics by reading them instead of discovering them (I never quite understood that. Discovering is way more interesting)...

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 28, 2007 01:31 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 13:35, 28 Jan 2007.

Quote:

About the main post itself, it probably took a lot of time to make, and it turned out good, but basically it doesn't show anything that most don't already know. The whole point of these topics is getting QP, as I see it... As soon as someone gets a star on something, a day or two later there's 4500 similar topics...
But what the heck And I guess this IS pretty helpful for people who don't play Heroes a lot and want to learn some tactics by reading them instead of discovering them (I never quite understood that. Discovering is way more interesting)...


I really dont care about red stars(ofc nothing wrong with getting them, but..), and actually I started the strategy threads lol ;p

I do it cause I love to write guides for games. Kind of a hobby

I always write some guides after I'm done with the faction. Currently, I'm gaming with haven (once imbalance is gone, I find this faction pleasing ;P), so you know what guide you can expect next

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted January 28, 2007 01:50 PM
Edited by sdfx at 13:51, 28 Jan 2007.

Another interesting Academy's strength is that their scouts will dominate. They  have nice starting spells and nice knowlegde to actually use them against enemy scouts or weak guards which implies that they will will become even stronger which may imply that they will be able to weaken enemy main hero before main battle.
For example Inferno is sooo lucky to have those damn imps Without them a weak academy scout but with for example Advanced Dark and nicely timed Frenzy would be a serious threat.
____________

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 28, 2007 02:02 PM bonus applied.

You are being unfair on some things and you overestimate others.

Quote:


Heroes

Galib
Speciality: The chance to trigger magic mirror is 10%+LVL*2%. For a level 15 Galib, it would be 30%. Much? Umm.. Sure, it can be a lifesaver and it's certainly funny to reflect an empowered lucky implosion when facing a warlock, but 30% isn't really something I'd depend on. His speciality increases the chance of reflecting the spell onto your enemy, so if you really like magic mirror..

Starting Skills: Luck is obviously good.

Starting Spells: Cleansing.. well, isn't too precious with your archmages having cleansing too. But an extra cleansing is never wrong.

Rating: 5/10. Rather average hero.. nothing special about him.


Actually he is the best academy support hero. He can get resourcefullness from lvl 2 and academy desperately needs that. But as a main he is not bad either. But he can't get motw within the first couple of lvls and lack of offensive spells doesn't help with creeping. Sure, you can build mage guild but you may not get one and you'll miss the gremlin dwelling. Luck arties are good but with just adv luck you can get easily +5 luck with key units as rakshasas and titans.

Quote:

Narxes
Speciality: By reading the description of his spell, I thought he increases spellpower of the archmages or something.. which is wrong: he gives them simple ATT/DEF bonus like every other creature specialists. And it SUCKS, because Arch Mages are meant as offensive casters with great utility spells (cleansing, Righteous might..), not as warriors.. +DEF is not wrong, yes, but +ATT is worthless ~~

Starting skills: Enlightment is something you'd get anyway (15% chance per level). Nothing special, and intelligence isn't needed earlygame anyway.

Starting spells: Fist of wrath. Bah, useless spell, so poor in damage..

Rating: 2/10. Sucks like Faiz. If only he boosted ArchMages in other way than +ATT/+DEF..


No, you may not need enlightenment. What if you wish to get light&summoning? This gets in the way and even if you get expert you'll still be behind in schedule, which is why I pick it in endgame(both for spellpower and making better arties which you won't use early anyway). Intelligence kinda pushes you to summoning/destructive and motw to exploit your mana. But the special is good. By the time you upg mages it will be long into midgame and you'll almost never wish to use their magic fist. Their ranged damage is better and with the bonus it's pretty decent for creeping and against enemy heroes(especially if you get to shoot multiple targets). 2/10 is too harsh, he's just mediocre.

Quote:

Jhora
Speciality: For MMR freaks I still find the bonus very low (you'd need level 20 to get ONE POINT of initiative extra..).. Still, it can buy you an attack before your opponent's hero.. But with the huge randomness of ATB bars, I wouldn't bother.

Staring Skills: Again, for MMR freaks, sorcery is obviously a good pick. For other strategy, it ain't too good. Arcane training is not a bad thing, but ArchMages already provide that, and with the incredible knowledge it ain't THAT useful.

Spells: Eldritch Arrow. Good spell for the earlygame!

Rating: 8/10 for MMR fans, 4/10 for the rest.


You've got it wrong there. Sorcery is the cornerstone to a good wizard's build(unless he goes light/dard/might). Arcane training IS needed both for creeping and big battles but also unlocks counterspell. Sometime in midgame you'll be able to create 2 clones at a time and 30% faster than your opponent can act(usually other classes don't get it, only mass spells can act faster). Or motw + wasp swarm/icebolt to stop enemies in their tracks. I used that against a massive shielguard stack, took one retaliation and started hitting with all my units and casting wasp swarm. They never got another turn again and even a warlock cannot deal with that easily-mana would have run out long before. The special isn't that good but you'll get more chances to act first which can make all the difference. 4/10 is way too low. I'd say at least 6 MMR or not.

Quote:

Nathir
Speciality: LEVEL/3 bonus to spellpower for fireball isn't that bad.. but you won't have much use of it in the earlygame, yup. And fireball doesn't work with MOTW. But, you can still use it as AoE defencekiller, since Nathir starts with master of fire. It has it uses, yes. Note that it doesn't work with armageddon.

Starting Skills: Destructive+master of fire. Well, destructive is a must for wizards anyway, and master of fire is good if you want some nice debuffing, since it will usually give you more than a single expert-vulnerability cast.

Starting Spells: Fireball. Holy molly.. Level 3 spell! Well, it costs a lot of mana, though, so you may wont to get archmages ASAP and arcane training, perhaps. Otherwise a nice spell and nice for rushes too!

Rating: 7/10. I originally thought not very well about Nathir, but compared to Legions of worthless academy heroes, this one is not very bad. Too bad MOTW, one of the main strengths on wizards, won't help. But, if you want a nice rusher (and anti-rusher), and you like to tear enemy defenses down.. why not?


Good for early, crappy for lategame. Ever tried it? His spellpower later is not good enough and he needs other cards to play. Only a warlock can still use destructive effectively against big armies and not even his special can save him from a light knight. Of course he CAN get the right skills but will he? In time? Map dependant so 7/10 is overrated. Other destructive perks can't help him much either. Surprisingly he is great against casters and if he gets counterspell too...

Quote:

Razzak

Speciality: Boosts golems.. wait, why golems? I never even use them ~~ Damn, why there can't be a nice djinn booster out there? Ohh, anyway.. Razzak makes golems "almost" decent. They still need march of the golems, though, and with abysmall chance to learn logistics.. yeah, you probably won't get it. and "almost" makes a BIG difference.

Starting Skills: DEFENSE! Yeah, with 2% chance to get it it's really a precious skill. And it's need for power of endurance perk, which is good.

Starting spells: Haste.. well, nothing special in earlygame, but since you want to use light magic anyway.. may not be that bad if you get divine strength in the guild.

Rating: 4/10 If you want a rare skill.. pick him, otherwise don't bother.


I agree though he can't get power of endurance...Too bad he starts with no gremins either.


Quote:

Creatures

Master Gremlins - Nice initiative, cheap, poor damage. Good for havez, cuz he comes with a horde.. literally.. And they make nice meatshields. Yeah, shooters ignore the archmages and focus on these creatures if they are present on the field.. which is good, makes it possible to go without tent. They repair mechanical things too, but you don't really want to bother with creeping with golems, do you? Overall a nice utility creature: good to help you creeping, good to draw master hunters' attention. In late game you don't need them.
Rating: 7/10 for the importance in early-mid creeping, 3/10 lategame.


3/10 lategame? The opponent MUST focus on them because they raise too many golems in their accumulated numbers. And that's their main function, not attacking.

Quote:

Obsidian Gargs - Wow, such a NASTY melee tank.. with ~80% survivability and immunity to most elements and magic (they are not alive, mind you - wasp swarm can't effect them, bye bye annoying sprites..), they really shine in the early-mid. They die slowly and come in incredible numbers, you'll never run out of them.. Redundant in lategame, though - no small shooters to protect in academy, not counting useless gremlins. And their weekly damage is the worst in game, if I remember correct. If you are a tanky-mage though, you may consider using them in lategame too, because they die so freaking slow, buying your phoenix and destructive spells much more time.
Rating: 8/10 earlygame, 2/10 for a non-tanky mage later, 6/10 for a tanky mage later.


Nooo...In late game they are the best ranged blockers. They'll deprive the opponent of many shots and that should give them more than 2/10.

Quote:

Djinn sultans - seems weak with 40 HP, but with horde building it actually offers survivability at 70%, which is quite decent.. and it's damage is unmatched by most level 5 and level 6 (!) units, with horde building ofc. In fact it's higher than emerald dragons, magma dragons, spectrals.. ouchh! 12 initiative, fast, flyer, can cast.. need more? Sure, may seem fragile because wizards lack DEF, but otherwise extremely good. Don't charge with them.. too precious. Take your time casting buffs (on titans, preferably..) and let the enemy spread a bit, then attack.
Rating: 8/10


8/10 is too much. Experience tells me that either in first or second round they'll be leftovers for they have little time to do anything important. No matter what their survivability says. The problem is that the regular djinns start with 33hp so you can't use them much, otherwise their upg is fine.

Quote:

Dungeon
Killer Strategy: Jhora+Counterspell

Yes, that's all: Jhora and counterspell. Without destructive, most warlocks will become little wimps. Of course there are still warlocks that can go "melee", but counterspell kills their power of speed perk, making them wimpy aswell. You have to creep fast, get a huge army and attack quickly, before the opponent gets his army too big. The victory is quite easy, in fact. You may consider light magic: One buff will surely help your army, and one not-counterspelled empowered implosion won't end the game.


Not really. I've mentioned it again that the matriarchs can cast something to end counterspell and their hero is free to keep casting again. If he has sorcery some time after the first round he'll get to play before the next counterspell because it doesn't work with the wizard's sorcery. Or start casting empowered implosions(with pendant of conflux) to drain the wizard as he wastes double the cost. He needs spells less than the wizard cause he has good offensive units and stats. Of course Jhora can do other stuff: resistance mini arties, buy regular arties get destructive+sap magic etc.

Quote:

Dwarves
Killer Strategy: Pressure.

Dwarves are slow in develpment, so a rush may be good.. too bad guardpost makes it incredibly hard. Try to lay some pressure on enemy forces,raid their territories, steal the mines.. with spearwielders, bears and shieldguards he can't stop your mages and gremlins+nathir outside the city, and without resources he won't do a thing. Once titans come, get them and start the preparations for a final assault. don't forget that master of fire perk kills their overgrown defense!


I agree. Just for the record though blackbear riders and shieldguards are immune to master of fire effects so they're still a pain to take down. Don't let the dragons come into play cause your fireball won't help much!
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted January 28, 2007 02:02 PM

Quote:
I really dont care about red stars(ofc nothing wrong with getting them, but..), and actually I started the strategy threads lol ;p

I do it cause I love to write guides for games. Kind of a hobby

I always write some guides after I'm done with the faction. Currently, I'm gaming with haven (once imbalance is gone, I find this faction pleasing ;P), so you know what guide you can expect next


Nothing wrong with the Red Stars - they show where to go for quality reading, and a good strategy guide can be very helpful to a lot of us - myself included.

What I think would be a very interesting project would be a Strategy Book like an equivalent to the Fan Made manual, but including sections on strategic advice on all the factions. ZombieLord has made what is probably so far the best strategy guide to Dungeon, and this one is an excellent start for Academy - even though there are still a few things that could be elaborated even more.

I know it would be a huge work to make such a book, but it could be really cool also. It would probably need collaboration from a lot of fans in order to cover the different aspects for each faction - and I'm personally not a master of strategy, so I cannot offer my assistence - but if there are people who'd like to give it a go, it could become a great achievement.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 28, 2007 02:27 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 14:32, 28 Jan 2007.

Quote:
You are being unfair on some things and you overestimate others.


Perhaps. After being thrashed several times while relying on sorcery, jhora, summoning and similiar crap, I've started to search for something different.

Quote:
Actually he is the best academy support hero. He can get resourcefullness from lvl 2 and academy desperately needs that. But as a main he is not bad either. But he can't get motw within the first couple of lvls and lack of offensive spells doesn't help with creeping. Sure, you can build mage guild but you may not get one and you'll miss the gremlin dwelling. Luck arties are good but with just adv luck you can get easily +5 luck with key units as rakshasas and titans.


I don't need resourcefullness, perhaps for people who do, his rating is higher indeed. I'm not a fan of building guilds like there was no tomorrow, and I can get titans without a damn mine. So, what is the point of taking this skill?

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No, you may not need enlightenment. What if you wish to get light&summoning?


Does enlightment interrupt getting light&summoning in any way? As I said, this is no MMR-guide. An ordinary player doesn't need expert summoning at level 5, it can wait.

Quote:
You've got it wrong there. Sorcery is the cornerstone to a good wizard's build(unless he goes light/dard/might).


Bah. I don't think so, but I guess it's a matter of taste.

Quote:
Arcane training IS needed both for creeping and big battles but also unlocks counterspell.


For creeping? Are you joking? I never run out of mana with any academy hero,NEVER. For big battles? Dunno about you, but mine end while I still have around 100 mana to use. I don't need cheaper spells.. I want more power at them. So, enlightment over sorcery perks any time of the day.

Quote:
Sometime in midgame you'll be able to create 2 clones at a time and 30% faster than your opponent can act(usually other classes don't get it, only mass spells can act faster).

Inferno - mass dark spells, haven - mass light spells, necro - mass dark spells, dwarves - mass light spells, sylvan - mass light spells, who are you trying to over-speed? Dungeon?


Quote:
I used that against a massive shielguard stack, took one retaliation and started hitting with all my units and casting wasp swarm. They never got another turn again and even a warlock cannot deal with that easily-mana would have run out long before.


Any faction can do that. And with several stacks, blocking one doesn't do much.

Quote:
The special isn't that good but you'll get more chances to act first which can make all the difference. 4/10 is way too low. I'd say at least 6 MMR or not.


4. Period! THat 0,2 initiative more is crap, I mean, if 12 initiative units can act before my 15 init griffins and 3 points off difference isn't enough, who would ever depend on a 0,2 point or something like that? Too much randomness, if you ask me.


Quote:
Good for early, crappy for lategame. Ever tried it?


Sure, Jhora's half of initative point is soooo much better. Every academy hero's special sucks lategame.

Quote:
His spellpower later is not good enough and he needs other cards to play. Only a warlock can still use destructive effectively against big armies and not even his special can save him from a light knight.


Light knights own academy so hard that no mmr or any other strategy can save you, their damage potential and speed of units are so impressive that half of your army is dead before you can think about uber motwed wasp swarm. So I think it doesn't matter how bad your hero's special is lategame, they are all crappy for this town.


Quote:
Of course he CAN get the right skills but will he? In time?


And since when picking Jhora makes her learn all the things you want?

Quote:
3/10 lategame? The opponent MUST focus on them because they raise too many golems in their accumulated numbers. And that's their main function, not attacking.


You play too many razzak duels? I don't care whether they raise golems or not, golems do pitiful damage and are ridiculously slow anyway.

Quote:
Nooo...In late game they are the best ranged blockers. They'll deprive the opponent of many shots and that should give them more than 2/10.


Depends. If the enemy focuses on ranged dudes, like skellie archers, they are sourrounded tight anyway.


Quote:
8/10 is too much. Experience tells me that either in first or second round they'll be leftovers for they have little time to do anything important. No matter what their survivability says. The problem is that the regular djinns start with 33hp so you can't use them much, otherwise their upg is fine.


I rarely use unupgraded units anyway

Quote:
Not really. I've mentioned it again that the matriarchs can cast something to end counterspell


Are you really sure units can trigger counterspell?

Quote:
Or start casting empowered implosions(with pendant of conflux) to drain the wizard as he wastes double the cost.


Wizard with intelligence has like triple warlock's mana. He can do it.


Quote:
I agree. Just for the record though blackbear riders and shieldguards are immune to master of fire effects so they're still a pain to take down. Don't let the dragons come into play cause your fireball won't help much!


I never saw magma dragons when playing with my friends anyway, 30 sulfur, cmon, ridiculous. And it's supposed to be a rushy strategy, week 2-3 pressure, are you sure he'll even think about magmas then?
Besides, shieldguards do pathetic damage and can be whacked away by spells, and bears ain't much better here.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted January 28, 2007 03:03 PM

What do you guys think about taking a ranger or a knight as a main hero for Academy ? Mass spells will work really nicely here.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted January 28, 2007 03:22 PM

Quote:

I don't need resourcefullness, perhaps for people who do, his rating is higher indeed. I'm not a fan of building guilds like there was no tomorrow, and I can get titans without a damn mine. So, what is the point of taking this skill?


Well, 500 gold more from chests is not bad. The extra resources can be used with mini arties earlier. Don't pick him much but he can help.

Quote:

Does enlightment interrupt getting light&summoning in any way? As I said, this is no MMR-guide. An ordinary player doesn't need expert summoning at level 5, it can wait.No, you may not need enlightenment. What if you wish to get light&summoning?


No but having a decent mastery in two schools plus their abilities takes many lvls and I rate enlightenment less than other skills. Your opponent won't wait until you get the spells you want. Sorcery I know I would get anyway and it will help me early too.

Quote:

For creeping? Are you joking? I never run out of mana with any academy hero,NEVER. For big battles? Dunno about you, but mine end while I still have around 100 mana to use. I don't need cheaper spells.. I want more power at them. So, enlightment over sorcery perks any time of the day.


Well 2(?) extra power by lvl 15 or so isn't that much of a difference though I do find it useful. Plus one lvl and something.
In a battle casting 1-2 phoenixes and motw+ a few phantom forces does drain you if it is long enough-and against might enemies it usually is. You won't always have full mana and I don't pick intelligence often. I'm not saying arcane training is great but for a prerequisite, it pays off.

Quote:

Inferno - mass dark spells, haven - mass light spells, necro - mass dark spells, dwarves - mass light spells, sylvan - mass light spells, who are you trying to over-speed? Dungeon?


If you get supress light/dark, chances they won't do that for more than 2 rounds. Not everyone gets the mass spells he wants nor get light or dark every time due to randomness. The dwarves use destructive pretty successfully too. And especially because mass casters are that fast you need to keep up. Motw + sorcery will help with that though haven can still kick your butt unless you are well prepared.

Quote:

Any faction can do that. And with several stacks, blocking one doesn't do much.


Keep hitting shieldguards for more than 5 rounds without retaliation? Casters need some magic aid against them(from the dwarven building, not the unit itself), not everyone has that good a defence or attack. And you'll only do that when other units have fallen and you can focus on them.

Quote:

Sure, Jhora's half of initative point is soooo much better. Every academy hero's special sucks lategame.


Agreed. But Nathir is forced to spend lvls in destructive which won't help much in a large map after midgame.

Quote:

You play too many razzak duels? I don't care whether they raise golems or not, golems do pitiful damage and are ridiculously slow anyway.


I rarely play duels. Maybe after customization comes in!
But that way you waste less damage on golems. Actually their damage is good as is their unlimited retaliations and in numbers they are good. They won't save you but they are reliable.

Quote:

Depends. If the enemy focuses on ranged dudes, like skellie archers, they are sourrounded tight anyway.


Yes. But I'm talking in general. There are large shooters too, you sometimes will have few stacks and surrounding units will be of limited supply etc. Now you won't see massive skellie/marksmen stacks. Not as before anyway.

Quote:

Are you really sure units can trigger counterspell?


If the spellcasting units are commanded by a hero then yes. I think it's neutral units that are unaffected.



In most cases I'm just talking about possible flaws and alternative counters. I don't question your strategies unless I openly say so in a particular one! The game is too random for everything to work anytime so I'm just adding a few things.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 28, 2007 03:48 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 15:49, 28 Jan 2007.

Quote:
The game is too random for everything to work anytime so I'm just adding a few things.


so do I ^^

anyways..any high-init hasted army whacks academy away. There are three massive damage dealers here, djinn, raksasha and titan. If the opponent has a fast and offensive unit, he will probably target djinns with it, and titans next, while stoping raksashas somehow.

Say..

Haven: Paladins charge at djinns, with luck they can kill them all in one blow. Griffins can battledive at either titans and rakshashas, because raksashas will likely use dash and stand in place anyway. Titans with poor DEF of academy hero won't survive a massive focus on them (jousting paladins, B-diving griffs and archangels all do above 200 dam/week), leaving academy player with raksashas only.

Sylvan: Emerald dragons go after djinns. Druids, possibly splitted, take care of titans with repeated lightnings. Treants stop raksashas.

Inferno: Cerberi and nightmares go after djinns, Demonlord sets exruciating strike and starts teleporting pitords at titans, familiars waste raksashas' retal and Arch Devils beat their asses.

And so on.. Necropolis doesn't have such fast killers, so it can't really destroy academy fast, but other towns .. uhh.

So..
The counter-idea would be to give your units INIT+speed arties and charge, possibly backing them up with mass haste. Well, gotta try that.

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86wyp
86wyp


Adventuring Hero
posted January 28, 2007 05:58 PM

This thread is kinda interesting. Doomforge it seems to me that you are shouting "MMR is useless! I don't like it" and "Academy is so weak,and the heroes sucks" at the same time without noticing that the reason for "Academy is so weak" is just "I don't use MMR". At least I won't buy your review because it could only make academy a weak faction.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 28, 2007 06:06 PM

I don't think it's bad or smth.. I just don't like it. You're the MMR specialist around here, not me ;p

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Archmage_Faiz
Archmage_Faiz


Disgraceful
Hired Hero
posted January 28, 2007 07:06 PM

Quote:
This thread is kinda interesting. Doomforge it seems to me that you are shouting "MMR is useless! I don't like it" and "Academy is so weak,and the heroes sucks" at the same time without noticing that the reason for "Academy is so weak" is just "I don't use MMR". At least I won't buy your review because it could only make academy a weak faction.
MMR is a big joke. As Vokial said, you may be playing against yourself, but I have another explanation:

"@ChangeHeroStat("AcademyHero", STAT_EXPERIENCE, 20000);"

and:

"@AddHeroCreatures("Academy´Hero", CREATURE_TITAN, 8);"

How would you otherwise have a full army by taking experience from chests, mr. C. Falcon? Com'on, this is rude against the newbies who may look around the forums to find good strategies. Elvin may have taken some of your ideas and made a playable strategy from them, but what you are showing us in your thread is clearly B*llsh*t, you don't have to be a Heroes V expert to see that. You are making fun of the credulous newbies, that is not nice.

Doomforge is a great strategist. I like this review.

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86wyp
86wyp


Adventuring Hero
posted January 28, 2007 08:04 PM

Quote:
Quote:
This thread is kinda interesting. Doomforge it seems to me that you are shouting "MMR is useless! I don't like it" and "Academy is so weak,and the heroes sucks" at the same time without noticing that the reason for "Academy is so weak" is just "I don't use MMR". At least I won't buy your review because it could only make academy a weak faction.
MMR is a big joke. As Vokial said, you may be playing against yourself, but I have another explanation:

"@ChangeHeroStat("AcademyHero", STAT_EXPERIENCE, 20000);"

and:

"@AddHeroCreatures("Academy´Hero", CREATURE_TITAN, 8);"

How would you otherwise have a full army by taking experience from chests, mr. C. Falcon? Com'on, this is rude against the newbies who may look around the forums to find good strategies. Elvin may have taken some of your ideas and made a playable strategy from them, but what you are showing us in your thread is clearly B*llsh*t, you don't have to be a Heroes V expert to see that. You are making fun of the credulous newbies, that is not nice.

Doomforge is a great strategist. I like this review.



I feel sorry for you. You make me feel like I was trying to explain earth is round to a person who comes from 5000 years ago. You call that B*llsh*t? Who cares. Let me throw some more B*llsh*t here

In the original threads, all screenshots are from multi-player games. Now maybe you want to see a game I played with myself, and see what the difference is? Am I cheating? You guess.

A map-testing game on former friends, heroic level.














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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 28, 2007 10:54 PM

That's a very rich map, 86wyp. Did you tried to play rush maps with your strategy? Non-opulent maps? From what you show us on the screenies, the map former friends is so rich that haven could launch a full peasant-to-cavalier training. I never played that map, but all those resources lying around.. duh.

I play mainly sterile or rush maps, that's why I rarely can afford every creature on week 4, hard diff, and you have almost 100 of every resource on heroic then, wow..

I still think your strategy isn't too good for maps like peninsula. Not that I think it's bad, but it takes considerably high amount of resources, and don't tell me you can kill 20 druid elders with level5 wizard and eldritch arrow+motw or smth like that without casualties And without killing them, there is no resources and no mines.. and no guilds/creatures.. and no MMR. Well, correct me if I'm wrong.

regards.

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86wyp
86wyp


Adventuring Hero
posted January 29, 2007 12:59 AM

Quote:
That's a very rich map, 86wyp. Did you tried to play rush maps with your strategy? Non-opulent maps? From what you show us on the screenies, the map former friends is so rich that haven could launch a full peasant-to-cavalier training. I never played that map, but all those resources lying around.. duh.

I play mainly sterile or rush maps, that's why I rarely can afford every creature on week 4, hard diff, and you have almost 100 of every resource on heroic then, wow..

I still think your strategy isn't too good for maps like peninsula. Not that I think it's bad, but it takes considerably high amount of resources, and don't tell me you can kill 20 druid elders with level5 wizard and eldritch arrow+motw or smth like that without casualties And without killing them, there is no resources and no mines.. and no guilds/creatures.. and no MMR. Well, correct me if I'm wrong.

regards.


Indeed,this is the richest map I have ever playedThere was so much gold left because I hadn't buy creatures which may cost 60000 gold or something. Anyway I don't think haven can train peasants to palas.Maybe they can train all peasants to archers and priests to palas IF they can creep that fast.

Can you kill 20 druid elders in the first week without big casualties? Good question. With haven, You can't, or I would say very difficult to achieve that. But with academy, you can, and that's actually very easy You gotta understand that a big stong point of MMR is that it gives the player very strong creeping capability. With magic, I can creep all mines in the first week most of the cases and dragon castles in the second week, and creep a lot more than other factions due to endless mana(except kaspar and deleb). In the thread you said Nur sucks, I think that's because you didn't know how much mana academy hero needs for creeping. Say, I would creep ten stacks of monsters in the first week in order to level up the hero and collect resources, it means I will need to cast 50 eldritch arrows or more if the monsters are tough. With normal hero, even academy hero other than nur, you won't have enough mana to do that. I know nur's power because I have uesd this power in many games, she is the fastest hero in academy, and as you said, academy needs to develop fast. I can even give a second hero like jhora or nathir one gramlin and let them creep some low level creatures only with their magics. In fact, I haven't found any faction, except necropolis, can creep and gather resources as fast as academy can.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 29, 2007 08:28 AM

Oh, I can also kill druids in week 1, that was not the question. The question was, how MMRs gonna help with it

I still find Nur sucky, because I play maps where wells are quite common, and with 60 mana it takes 20 arrows.. more than I really need, since I don't rely on them exclusively. Archmages do a lot of the job.


anyway.. interesting. Could you explain it a bit more?

Say, a level X nur with eldritch arrow doing 100 damage, 200 with MOTW, facing 20 druids, 35 hp each, that's 700 HP, so you need 1 turn for motw and 4 turns for arrows. Within 5 turns, druids can slaughter your regular army, and even do some damage to gargoyles or golems which you need to resort to (to avoid bolts). Now tell me, how on earth you can get no casualties at this point? Let's say there was no phoenix in the guild ;p And druids aren't really that bad here with gargs and golems, if you meet grim raiders it can be trickier..

I understood correct, you rely on eldritch arrow, motw and phoenix at creeping exclusively. But, to launch MoTWed eldritch arrows, no need to devote everything to magic, so havez going "traditional" build can do it equally well.

Sorry for being sceptical, I just never managed to succed tring your strategy (rushed several times when I had 2-3 stacks and a level 5 guild, so the battle ended extremely quickly even with my desperate casts ~~)

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