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| Thread: In-depth Acadmy review |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 29, 2007 11:11 AM |
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Nice, better than the Inferno one 
Heh, this review is a bit too subjective, I thought it supposed to be objective, oh well... 
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How would you otherwise have a full army by taking experience from chests, mr. C. Falcon?
Actually I tried it myself, and I had no "serious" problems with gold -- you're just a bit too obsessed with gold -- the problem are the resources not the gold, since you can always find piles of gold or Dragon Utopias 
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Doomforge is a great strategist.
One should not confuse strategy with abuse, but what am I talking about? I'm always taking abuses with Necro 
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Let's say there was no phoenix in the guild ;p
Let's say there were no druids at the mines...
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if you meet grim raiders it can be trickier..
Grim raiders are amongst the weakest, next to vampires. 
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Are you really sure units can trigger counterspell?
Yes, they CAN trigger counterspell. Did you ever play with a good dungeon player? Or with more than 1 player? I thought reviews were about your own experience 
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I rarely use unupgraded units anyway 
That's why you can't get tier 7s with other factions...
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I still find Nur sucky, because I play maps where wells are quite common
Maps or just Peninsula? c'mon this game was designed for FFA or teams, not just 1vs1.. that's why probably there are so imbalances in rushes. You can't expect something to be balanced if it isn't played how it should be, nor abuses.
This opinion is based upon the fact that there is only one map with 1vs1, aka Peninsula
That's also why I don't like MMR, but I gave it a try before criticizing it though, and it worked for me
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 29, 2007 11:21 AM |
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Nice review, well done
And when you say a creature is useless, remind of its strengths (even my favorite Zombies have some potential)
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 29, 2007 12:42 PM |
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Yes, they CAN trigger counterspell. Did you ever play with a good dungeon player? Or with more than 1 player? I thought reviews were about your own experience
Of course, lol. Too bad we never got to see that, because my bud prefers to attack with matriarchs rather than cast spell. Perhaps he didn't even think about countering the counterspell that way. Well, that's what we're gonna test our next game, then
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That's why you can't get tier 7s with other factions...
Ahh, level 7s don't count ;p sure I use unupgraded L7s (except colossi, because titans are very easy to get).
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Maps or just Peninsula? c'mon this game was designed for FFA or teams, not just 1vs1.. that's why probably there are so imbalances in rushes. You can't expect something to be balanced if it isn't played how it should be, nor abuses.
The game was designed for us to play however we want, not mainly FFA or mainly 1v1. I like 1v1, so I play 1v1 the most And sure, I play other maps too, but hey, peninsula is my favorite
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That's also why I don't like MMR, but I gave it a try before criticizing it though, and it worked for me
So did I, but I failed terribly. Maybe it can work on abundant, big maps, though.
Oh yes.. perhaps "review" is not the best name for what I do here.. cuz it's meant to be as subjective as possible perhaps the term analysis would be better..
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 29, 2007 12:51 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 12:51, 29 Jan 2007.
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Of course, lol. Too bad we never got to see that, because my bud prefers to attack with matriarchs rather than cast spell. Perhaps he didn't even think about countering the counterspell that way. Well, that's what we're gonna test our next game, then
I just said that maybe you never played with a good "dungeon" player (I for myself am not a good Academy player, or at least not consider myself as one).
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Ahh, level 7s don't count ;p sure I use unupgraded L7s (except colossi, because titans are very easy to get).
I meant that you waste resources on upgrades so you can't build the level 7 dwellings.
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So did I, but I failed terribly. Maybe it can work on abundant, big maps, though.
Yeah well it's kinda risky
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Oh yes.. perhaps "review" is not the best name for what I do here.. cuz it's meant to be as subjective as possible perhaps the term analysis would be better..
Maybe something from personal experience would be better (I mean like calling it "Academy from personal experience analysis), though I know the title is too long
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 29, 2007 02:22 PM |
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Oh, I can also kill druids in week 1, that was not the question. The question was, how MMRs gonna help with it
I still find Nur sucky, because I play maps where wells are quite common, and with 60 mana it takes 20 arrows.. more than I really need, since I don't rely on them exclusively. Archmages do a lot of the job.
anyway.. interesting. Could you explain it a bit more?
Say, a level X nur with eldritch arrow doing 100 damage, 200 with MOTW, facing 20 druids, 35 hp each, that's 700 HP, so you need 1 turn for motw and 4 turns for arrows. Within 5 turns, druids can slaughter your regular army, and even do some damage to gargoyles or golems which you need to resort to (to avoid bolts). Now tell me, how on earth you can get no casualties at this point? Let's say there was no phoenix in the guild ;p And druids aren't really that bad here with gargs and golems, if you meet grim raiders it can be trickier..
I understood correct, you rely on eldritch arrow, motw and phoenix at creeping exclusively. But, to launch MoTWed eldritch arrows, no need to devote everything to magic, so havez going "traditional" build can do it equally well.
Sorry for being sceptical, I just never managed to succed tring your strategy (rushed several times when I had 2-3 stacks and a level 5 guild, so the battle ended extremely quickly even with my desperate casts ~~)
Believe me you will need those mana. Archmages are not enough and in most maps you can't visit wells three times a week or so. Have you ever fight 70 vindicators with eldritch arrows in the first week, or 40 ghosts on day 2? I guess not. So you don't know how many arrows will a hero need.
e~ druid elders becomes druids? That's even easier. So are you saying you know how to creep druids in week 1? That's great coz then I save my words. If you don't then say you don't. You then have questions about riders? Ha come on!
But you still don't know how to creep with magic. eldritch arrow is one thing, there are also fire traps, fist of wrath, raise dead, wasp swarm, phantom, fire wall, summon elemental, and magics from other schools, each of these magics can be used for creeping. Will you be able to kill 120 hunters or 60 mages or 15 dragons in the second week with your tent or archmages? or even more powerful creatures? No matter what way you use, if you can do that, then you know how to play academy, otherwise I think there are something you need to learn.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 29, 2007 02:34 PM |
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Will you be able to kill 120 hunters or 60 mages or 15 dragons in the second week with your tent or archmages?
I'd say that requires some luck as well and the right spells, probably implosion, wasp swarm and summon phoenix which you CAN get and learn(not always but you can) in week 2. It's good that creep AI is generally predictable. With MMR I don't even build mages until week 3.
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 29, 2007 02:41 PM |
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Edited by 86wyp at 14:42, 29 Jan 2007.
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Will you be able to kill 120 hunters or 60 mages or 15 dragons in the second week with your tent or archmages?
I'd say that requires some luck as well and the right spells, probably implosion, wasp swarm and summon phoenix which you CAN get and learn(not always but you can) in week 2. It's good that creep AI is generally predictable. With MMR I don't even build mages until week 3.
You don't really need implosion Only sommuning magic is enough. But if you have armageddon...of course I am talking about "normal" ways. Oh and build mages if you can in the first two weeks. Even with magics, creatures are important, the more the better.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 29, 2007 02:46 PM |
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86wyp well thanks for your admonishing speech, but you still haven't answered my question!
Eldritch or not, wasp swarm or not, 5 turns is a lot for three stacks of druids to do some damage, so.. without tent.. how can you get _no_ loses at all? You can't animate gargs or golems anyway. I guess you're quite oversimplifying things here. No loses means NO loses, not "a few golems/gargs lost", mind you.
And grim raiders aren't that much of a threat, but without a tent, you can eldritch as much as you want, and they will still probably score a few kills.. you don't do 1,5 k damage with eldritch arrow or even implosion in 1st week, you know. So, you kill, say, 20% raiders with a destructive spell,and the rest goes after your meatshields.. and since you don't even have mages.. How long gargs, gremlins and golems (assuming you built them) can tank? Sure, phoenix can tank for you, but in case you don't have it.. what then? Wasp swarm? MOTWed wasp swarm? Come on, it's a stopper, not damage dealer, you can hardly kill a raider with it, and they are probably spliited to 3-4 stacks since you lack any means of army.. I still don't get it. If you can explain that without using your mentorial tone(cuz telling me that I don't know a damn thing about creeping with academy repeatedly isn't going to enlighten me anyway..), I'd like to hear that!
regards.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted January 29, 2007 02:52 PM |
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But you still don't know how to creep with magic. eldritch arrow is one thing, there are also fire traps, fist of wrath, raise dead, wasp swarm, phantom, fire wall, summon elemental, and magics from other schools, each of these magics can be used for creeping. Will you be able to kill 120 hunters or 60 mages or 15 dragons in the second week with your tent or archmages? or even more powerful creatures? No matter what way you use, if you can do that, then you know how to play academy, otherwise I think there are something you need to learn.
i wonder what day 2nd week you are talking about... without Ressurection 120 hunters or 60 mages are really hard to kill even in week 2 day 7 . It can be done if you get really nice magic like armaggeon or meteor shower with only 7 stacks of gargoyles, but otherwise i dont see how.
Anyway 86wyp why don't you join www.toheroes.com, to play the best players around. I and some other players there consider academy to be a little underpowered, and after week 5, it becomes one of the worst, and has few chances to win the game against any other. Academy is very map dependant, and if you can't attack your opponent fast, you're almost dead
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 29, 2007 02:53 PM |
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Doomforge: I have a "classical" tactic with Academy against Grim Riders, and attain no losses (no MMR or magics):
Put your units into a corner (Master gremlins & mages), with some Iron Golems protecting them, making the Riders unable to reach there due to their size. Here's a diagram (m = mage, g = gremlin, i = iron golem):
......i.i.
.......g.m
in this way you can repair your golems and attain no losses
I was Faiz without destructive & summoning, at week 2
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 29, 2007 03:01 PM |
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TheDeath: hah you're right, totally forgot about this simple trick.. Well, in case you have a huge gremlin stack it can work, sure.
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supphanat
Hired Hero
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posted January 29, 2007 09:51 PM |
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Oh, I can also kill druids in week 1, that was not the question. The question was, how MMRs gonna help with it
I still find Nur sucky, because I play maps where wells are quite common, and with 60 mana it takes 20 arrows.. more than I really need, since I don't rely on them exclusively. Archmages do a lot of the job.
anyway.. interesting. Could you explain it a bit more?
Say, a level X nur with eldritch arrow doing 100 damage, 200 with MOTW, facing 20 druids, 35 hp each, that's 700 HP, so you need 1 turn for motw and 4 turns for arrows. Within 5 turns, druids can slaughter your regular army, and even do some damage to gargoyles or golems which you need to resort to (to avoid bolts). Now tell me, how on earth you can get no casualties at this point? Let's say there was no phoenix in the guild ;p And druids aren't really that bad here with gargs and golems, if you meet grim raiders it can be trickier..
I understood correct, you rely on eldritch arrow, motw and phoenix at creeping exclusively. But, to launch MoTWed eldritch arrows, no need to devote everything to magic, so havez going "traditional" build can do it equally well.
Sorry for being sceptical, I just never managed to succed tring your strategy (rushed several times when I had 2-3 stacks and a level 5 guild, so the battle ended extremely quickly even with my desperate casts ~~)
I think why don't you guys arrange some matches and flight each other to prove your words. So you will never have any question against each other again. And I also want to know as well that MMR works well with human players or not (especially good tactic players). If you guys have arrange some matches, please don't forget to post the result as well.
PS Actually, I love Nur as well. As Droomforge said it is the best for MMR and I love MMR
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 30, 2007 01:11 AM |
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Edited by 86wyp at 01:30, 30 Jan 2007.
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86wyp well thanks for your admonishing speech, but you still haven't answered my question!
Eldritch or not, wasp swarm or not, 5 turns is a lot for three stacks of druids to do some damage, so.. without tent.. how can you get _no_ loses at all? You can't animate gargs or golems anyway. I guess you're quite oversimplifying things here. No loses means NO loses, not "a few golems/gargs lost", mind you.
And grim raiders aren't that much of a threat, but without a tent, you can eldritch as much as you want, and they will still probably score a few kills.. you don't do 1,5 k damage with eldritch arrow or even implosion in 1st week, you know. So, you kill, say, 20% raiders with a destructive spell,and the rest goes after your meatshields.. and since you don't even have mages.. How long gargs, gremlins and golems (assuming you built them) can tank? Sure, phoenix can tank for you, but in case you don't have it.. what then? Wasp swarm? MOTWed wasp swarm? Come on, it's a stopper, not damage dealer, you can hardly kill a raider with it, and they are probably spliited to 3-4 stacks since you lack any means of army.. I still don't get it. If you can explain that without using your mentorial tone(cuz telling me that I don't know a damn thing about creeping with academy repeatedly isn't going to enlighten me anyway..), I'd like to hear that!
regards.
Sorry for my offence, I didn't notice you were emphasizing no lose at all. So we were actually talking about different topics. To fight with druid and have no lose is still possible, but you do need some luck. Just put 4 stacks of one gremlins and 3 stacks of one golems, then you can take 6 attacks but still have no lose. The hero should have some good dd spells that can kill 6 druids down with one shot or high level spells. eldritch arrow then is useless. Even tent won't work because one turn of lightenging strikes from druids will deal more than 300 damage. But wasp swarm can still work if you have around 10 powers( not always but possible if you can get enough exp early on). Another possibility is firewall if you can build level 4 magic guild in the first week.
There is another important thing that you ignored, which is sorcery. (BTW This skill is definitely a must have for academy heroes if you want to use single-target spell+MOTW combo. Even if you only learn light magic you can still have benefits from it from casting resurrection+MOTW. ) With expert sorcery your wasp swarm+MOTW becomes very effective, the druids that are targeted by wasp swarm won't be able to act at all for several turns. If you have firewall, you might even be able to kill one or two stacks of them(depending on how many stacks they split) at each hero action.
to towerlord, 120 hunters and 60 mages are quite easy if you have phoenix+wasp swarm or firewall+wasp swarm or firewall+raise dead or resurrection or ofcourse high level destructive magics with sorcery.
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 30, 2007 01:48 AM |
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i wonder what day 2nd week you are talking about... without Ressurection 120 hunters or 60 mages are really hard to kill even in week 2 day 7 . It can be done if you get really nice magic like armaggeon or meteor shower with only 7 stacks of gargoyles, but otherwise i dont see how.
Anyway 86wyp why don't you join www.toheroes.com, to play the best players around. I and some other players there consider academy to be a little underpowered, and after week 5, it becomes one of the worst, and has few chances to win the game against any other. Academy is very map dependant, and if you can't attack your opponent fast, you're almost dead
I believe there are players who can play academy well, maybe it's just that you don't know them. But you know me at least Anyway I am not satisfied with words like "academy is underpowered". I am interested in how you players use academy in MP games. I have introduced much of my way of playing,and I really want to hear yours. Doomforge reviewed heroes and creatures, but that's not the WAY of playing. What is the building order? What skills you will learn? How do you creep early on? How did academy lose to other factions? Maybe you can also post some of your games no matter who won, and let me understand your thoughts about academy. I am sure there are things I can learn from that, and once I know your situation and diffieulties it will be easier for us to understand each other.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 30, 2007 09:38 AM |
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Doomforge reviewed heroes and creatures, but that's not the WAY of playing. What is the building order? What skills you will learn? How do you creep early on? How did academy lose to other factions?
I didn't cuz those things are a matter of taste, no need to even mention them.
And I mentioned how academy loses to other factions, yes: might power paired with high initiative killers. You can't really cast phantom if the stack is dead, you know
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 30, 2007 09:50 AM |
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MMR is not that bad. I tried it on Mystic's Vale once, Heroic, 3 AI players (Inferno, Necropolis, Haven) and managed to beat them all. The first one (Inferno) had no chance, defeated him in week 3 (ofc, no Deleb!!!) Then I went for the second, the Necro. I should have brought reinforcements (I had Colossi in week 3, mind you!) but I went straight in his base. I arrived at week 4 near his castle doors. When I saw his army, I realized I underestimated him:
- 6 Wights, 12 ArchLiches, 27 Vampire Lords, 40 Spectre, 80 Plague Zombies, 150 Skeleton Archers
and I had only
- 150 Master Gremlins, 40 Stone Gargoyles and 28 Iron Golems
Fortunately, I was level 14 while he was only a level 1 Deirdre (level 12 Naadir was far away)
The most amazing part is that I managed to defeat him!!! Only 8 Iron Golems remained!!! How? First and Second Hero turns used EarthQuake, destroyed all towers and walls. Then Summon 'Unstoppable' Phoenix. All I can say is that the Phoenix did all the job there, while my Hero was casting Eldritch Arrow with MotW on ArchLiches
The last one was more of a 'classical' way. Because I had so many losses, no more rushes for the third player!!!
btw, I was Jhora.
P.S.: I forgot to say the AI player had double growth, as I like to give him (thanks to TheDeath for this idea!) because otherwise it's pretty god damn easy! even Heroic!
Probably that's why he had that amazing army in his castle while still having most at Naadir!
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 30, 2007 09:53 AM |
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Oh yeah I forgot: MMR is risky!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 30, 2007 09:59 AM |
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Wights? If he had wraights, it would be like
*cast harm touch on phoenix*
and
*academy loses the game*
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 30, 2007 10:00 AM |
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Wraiths? It already had TOO MANY upgraded creatures for week 4! Everybody knows the AI cheats, so...
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 30, 2007 03:20 PM |
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Edited by 86wyp at 15:23, 30 Jan 2007.
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And I mentioned how academy loses to other factions, yes: might power paired with high initiative killers. You can't really cast phantom if the stack is dead, you know
Other factions have killer units, and academy has magics. While haven use knights, academy use magics to defeat enemies, but you only mentioned knights, there were no magics like resurrection, amrageddon, phoenix, puppet master and many many more. Besides, you may give the academy troops extra initiative by making miniartis. Emerald dragons and nightmares may still be a problem, but others won't. And you can also get more artifacts from merchant, that can give you more attack or defence or initiative or so. And you can also creep faster and get more resources and even more artifacts.
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