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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 12, 2007 07:44 PM |
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Edited by executor at 19:48, 12 Mar 2007.
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Look slightly above what you quoted: INITIATIVE ADJUSTED Tower Lord's WAY. But I agree with you, GenieLord, blackies & titans (& archangels or even pals & devils) do more massacre on the battlefield IMO.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 12, 2007 07:52 PM |
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Geez, why don't you listen to TowerLord instead of doing those a bit "newby" calculations? He is right, Emeralds have the access to many boosters (avenger, luck, light magic,natural defense of the ranger) whereas Black Dragons or Titans don't, and in the end Emeralds do much much more damage than those seemingly superior units, even though their stats show something opposite. Stats are quite misleading, my friend 
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted March 12, 2007 07:54 PM |
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@GenieLord he took my +40% initiative ~= +40% dmg suggestion, into consideration.
@Executor ... 3 defense isn't the end of the world .. that's for sure!
And 20 HPs less than the Archangels is unnoticable too. Also the Titans which you place on first place have only 190 HPs, so no difference here.
But the virtual damage output of the Emeralds is almost double to what this creatures have to offer, if they use the acid breath.
Also ... imagine this one... Fighting against a warlock, with empowered lucky Implosion, ChainLighting or other evil spells. The Emeralds will act and take their huge share of kills ( because his defense is almost 0) and maybe after that the warlock will be able to cast spell on them.
On the other hand the magmas which you rate second, will naturally act after the Warlock and they might be dead already, leaving you without a big source of damage. So you see , there are many benefits from big initiative !
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 12, 2007 07:55 PM |
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But I wrote it two or three times: I DO NOT TAKE HEROES INTO CONSIDERATION. Mind titan or blackie with ranger as a hero . And emeralds in wizards army. Then it's talk about creatures. And I think it is supposed to be.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 12, 2007 08:00 PM |
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Not for me. I *hate* such thoerycraft. What to discuss then? Everyone sees that black dragon has the highest stats and seems the best.
It's better to discuss things as they appear in the game IMO, since it's a bit different than simply comparing several numbers. There would be no discussion cause each of us would agree that unit X has a higher number here and there and it's the best. You see any point in that?
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 12, 2007 08:04 PM |
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Edited by executor at 20:22, 12 Mar 2007.
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Yes there are many benefits from big initiative. But it is not only initiative that makes creature good. You gave examples in favour of your beloved emeralds, and I acknowledge them, the're ok. But there are many examples against. Let's say you're playnig on a very big/huge map. You will encounter many more losses in emeralds thorough the game, whilst those in blackies would be much less, and in titans barely noticable(Shooter). Or let's say you are fighting necro with puppet master/berserk/blind. Your emeralds aren't that good then. Blackies, titans and magmies aren't weakened. We are here to judge creatures from all points of view, not just one.
I don't rate titan 1st, but 2nd ex aequo with magmie. First place for blackies. Worship them. Just kidding.
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 12, 2007 08:12 PM |
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Edited by executor at 20:19, 12 Mar 2007.
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Doomforge, but artificier on titans is great as well. That's why I *don't* like talking about heroes when talking about cretures. And that's not so easy to judge creatures by their stats, primarily due to introduction of initiative. How can you otherwise tell that nightmares are much, much better than unicorns f.eg? And who forbids you to have a non-sylvan army on ranger or non-academy on wizard and so on?
Boosters(common):
Titan: artificier  , light magic
Blackies: elemental damage(with many dungeons awesome), and hero masacrates enemies himself...
Magmies: RUNES , light magic
Everyone can have luck.(+25% elvish is not a gamebreaker, come on...)
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 12, 2007 08:31 PM |
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Quote:
Doomforge, but artificier on titans is great as well. That's why I *don't* like talking about heroes when talking about cretures. And that's not so easy to judge creatures by their stats, primarily due to introduction of initiative.
It's still better to take everything into consideration, for it may give you a more "true" vision of the real game. Say, who would care if your titans could get 90930430957820 defense if excruciating strike and teleport assault on pitlords would still bring them down very fast and without much effort? Would you still say that their 90930430957820 def is better than a few well-placed points in skills and tactics after losing the battle? I doubt so. That's why I prefer to consider everything when talking about every unit.
Quote:
And who forbids you to have a non-sylvan army on ranger or non-academy on wizard and so on?
Are you kidding me? It's often hard to get all your structures in your main town! Now, you take the second one, you run out of resources, you destroy your morale by mixing your armies together, or you use the second one only? In the last case, it can work perhaps, but why just not to start with that castle instead of troubling yourself with capturing it on time? You miss 1-2 weeks of town develpoment just before you capture the second town and that makes your "secondary" army smaller by a few populations, which may prove fatal in the battle.. I guess you know it already, but just to be sure 
Elven luck is not a gamebreaker, but favored enemy+luck triggering at once gives 450% damage, and that HURTS.
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 12, 2007 08:51 PM |
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Edited by executor at 21:56, 12 Mar 2007.
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Oh, you know what I ment by having 'non-town' army on a 'town' hero. And pit lords with TA kill emeralds as well. And chance for fav.en. + elven luck(1 town, no artifacts, expert luck) is... 7,5%?? Nice as a gift from your personal luck, but can you really rely on such combo?
Elven luck(with exp luck) is +18.75% dmg for me, and avenger + 40%(+10% per town) dmg to a chosen creature(very good, I admit). This is +58.75%(68.75%) dmg to a chosen creature. But If ranger is the source of all this goodies, then it is the ranger(and the sylvan town) that you think is excellent, not a single creature.
And I also am for taking everything into consideration, to truly see aspects of the game. How good a UNIT is. Or a HERO. Or a TOWN. Or (hero + single creature) combination. But I am against mixing these categories.
All people differ, and so do their opinions and ways of thinking. Wise men exchange ideas. Unwise blows.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 13, 2007 12:56 PM |
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Quote:
Not for me. I *hate* such thoerycraft. What to discuss then? Everyone sees that black dragon has the highest stats and seems the best.
Not necessarily, because they have lower initiative than Emeralds... but yeah they are the best.
Quote:
It's better to discuss things as they appear in the game IMO, since it's a bit different than simply comparing several numbers.
Sure, that's good practice. HOWEVER how can you rate a CREATURE with all the hero boosts?? Like I said, if you think marksmen are tough because hero has +x attack and +x defense, then I'll tell you this: Blood Furies are even more tough, with empowered lucky implosion
The fact is, whether you get a lucky strike on Emeralds or not, the "bonus" damage is NOT FROM THE CREATURE, it's FROM the hero  And ALL OTHER bonuses provided by hero abilities are FROM THE HERO, not from the creature.
If you want to rate how "effective" are Emeralds in a REAL battle, then rate "Sylvan is powerful" or something like that, not "Emeralds are powerful". All the hero bonuses belong to the hero
Quote:
There would be no discussion cause each of us would agree that unit X has a higher number here and there and it's the best. You see any point in that?
Well really, they all have different abilities and such.. but it's important to consider the BASE creature, not the bonuses provided by hero arties or abilities -- that's the hero's potential.
And why can't you have a Ranger leading blackies?
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 13, 2007 12:57 PM |
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Just to know: 40% more initiative is BETTER than 40% damage because you do roughly 40% more damage, but you also MOVE faster. That's why Morale resets the ATB value to only 0.5 and not 1.0 like in H3... H3 was imbalanced because Morale was better than Double Damage as Luck is. Anyway, I still think Luck is better than Morale... maybe if it would deal 66% extra damage instead of 100%
Oh and another thing: Titans may be Shooters but that is not really great. I mean, they do half the damage from far range and Emeralds have a very high speed which means they'll get to their target in one turn almost all the time.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 13, 2007 12:58 PM |
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Btw ZombieLord, initiative is even greater -- you get "retaliation strikes" at a faster rate 
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted March 13, 2007 01:08 PM |
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Quote:
Oh, you know what I ment by having 'non-town' army on a 'town' hero. And pit lords with TA kill emeralds as well. And chance for fav.en. + elven luck(1 town, no artifacts, expert luck) is... 7,5%?? Nice as a gift from your personal luck, but can you really rely on such combo?
Elven luck(with exp luck) is +18.75% dmg for me, and avenger + 40%(+10% per town) dmg to a chosen creature(very good, I admit). This is +58.75%(68.75%) dmg to a chosen creature. But If ranger is the source of all this goodies, then it is the ranger(and the sylvan town) that you think is excellent, not a single creature.
And I also am for taking everything into consideration, to truly see aspects of the game. How good a UNIT is. Or a HERO. Or a TOWN. Or (hero + single creature) combination. But I am against mixing these categories.
All people differ, and so do their opinions and ways of thinking. Wise men exchange ideas. Unwise blows.
well you are definetly wrong. This numbers are with x not +. So the Sylvan damage could be 450% with elven luck and avenger.
And yoe you can relay on such combo, because it will trigger 25% when you attack favorite enemy and already have 5 luck. In 50% you will get only one of the two bonuses na 25% to gain nothing. IMO this is a gamebreaker if you have some units ofcourse.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 13, 2007 01:09 PM |
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Quote:
Btw ZombieLord, initiative is even greater -- you get "retaliation strikes" at a faster rate
Were you sarcastic or did you mean "retaliation shots"?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 13, 2007 01:13 PM |
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Yeah shots, whatever.
I meant like, a zombie will act, and then have only one retaliation until his turn comes again -- i.e it doesn't have unlimited retaliation.
And with a faster initiative, it will get it's retaliation shots or strikes, whatever, faster.
I was not sarcastic
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 13, 2007 01:15 PM |
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In level 2, they weakest creatures are probably the Demon Overseer and the Plague Zombie.
Which one of them do you think is better?
Attack: Plague Zombie < Horned Overseer
Defence: Plague Zombie < Horned Overseer
HP: Plague Zombie (17) > Horned Overseer (13)
Damage: Plague Zombie = Horned Overseer
Initiative: Plague Zombie < Horned Overseer
Speed: Plague Zombie < Horned Overseer
Growth: Plague Zombie = Horned Overseer
Cost: Plague Zombie > Horned Overseer
So except of the HP, the status of the Horned Overseer is better then the status Plague Zombies in all the categories.
About the special abilities:
Both of them have Enraged ability.
Plague Zombie is Undead and Horned Overseer is Demonic. Undead is better (immunity to Dark Magic and some of the Summoning Magic).
The main difference is that Horned Demon has Explosion, and Plague Zombie has Weakening Strike.
I would say the Explosion is much more useful. It has a great tactical use.
You can use gating, Gate the Horned Overseers between (or near) some enemy shooters/casters and to explode.
From most of the directions, Horned Overseer is better.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 13, 2007 01:22 PM |
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It is clearly that Plague Zombies are better because they are more expensive and strangely they have the same growth. 5 HP is really MUCH when we're talking about Low level creatures.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 13, 2007 01:30 PM |
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Nah, you're just saying that because you're the Zombie Lord
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 13, 2007 01:35 PM |
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For me Blackies are worst.... I never have neither money nor resources for dwelling ... not saying bout units itself
As for other tiers:
1 - conscripts i guess
2 - deamons - i found zombies very useful since they saved my butt few times when left alone on the battelfield when everything else died)
3 - this is tough call for me , id say cerberi because they die from single hit lategame, and from two hits earlygame(in my opinion this unit shoud be able to creep something on his own like fury since it has almost the same toughness and is tier 3 ).
4 - berserkers - i just have the feeling that dwarves have 2x tier 3,5 in their castle instead of 3 and 4. all other creatures from this tier just outclass those.
5- ginies - just dont like the combo. Fragile offensive creature with no att no defense hero
6- pit lords or treemen hard to say
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted March 13, 2007 01:36 PM |
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yeah ... i was wondering too about plague zombies and horned overseers , which is the better one... and i didn't reach any conclusion. plague zombies = better tanks, horned overseers = better fighters, depends what you want from them!
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