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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Every Level's Weakest Creature
Thread: Every Level's Weakest Creature This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT»
pomo
pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted March 21, 2007 03:45 AM
Edited by pomo at 04:01, 21 Mar 2007.

Quote:
I just named a few.  I thought everyone would realize there are many more and could come up with some themselves.  I guess people can't do that.
...

Hopefully NOW you will see how it affects almost every army very much.  But if not, that's your right to think otherwise.  I'll keep on blinding, stunning, warding, bashing, etc...


Just a touch arrogant don't you think? We are so thankful for your great wisdom, NOW we should all just see the error of our ways and agree with everything you say.

Some things on your list are plainly rubbish. I for one live in hope that my wraiths are about to get good morale for a double harm touch . Or my spectrals with cursing attack. Mana drain occurs automatically on imps first turn and has no relation to morale - unless you're talking about spectres - oh wait...

The great irony is that many of the things you listed are dependent on soldiers luck Sure if you get morale and bash/fear attack/whatever two stacks then that's great, but it's no stronger than much higher likelihood of getting it on one important stack.

Anyway, I certainly agree with you that both morale and luck are very strong and ideally you would want both to be high - but there are some considerable arguments for luck that you seem to simply want to ignore in favour of condescension. Oh and btw, people already understood the point you were making - but also know the counter arguments .

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 21, 2007 09:17 AM

A bit of "arrogance" is never wrong. Especially if you have skills to back it up without making a fool of yourself

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted March 21, 2007 12:37 PM

Quote:
Quote:
I just named a few.  I thought everyone would realize there are many more and could come up with some themselves.  I guess people can't do that.
...

Hopefully NOW you will see how it affects almost every army very much.  But if not, that's your right to think otherwise.  I'll keep on blinding, stunning, warding, bashing, etc...


Just a touch arrogant don't you think? We are so thankful for your great wisdom, NOW we should all just see the error of our ways and agree with everything you say.

Some things on your list are plainly rubbish. I for one live in hope that my wraiths are about to get good morale for a double harm touch . Or my spectrals with cursing attack. Mana drain occurs automatically on imps first turn and has no relation to morale - unless you're talking about spectres - oh wait...

The great irony is that many of the things you listed are dependent on soldiers luck Sure if you get morale and bash/fear attack/whatever two stacks then that's great, but it's no stronger than much higher likelihood of getting it on one important stack.

Anyway, I certainly agree with you that both morale and luck are very strong and ideally you would want both to be high - but there are some considerable arguments for luck that you seem to simply want to ignore in favour of condescension. Oh and btw, people already understood the point you were making - but also know the counter arguments .


To be honest, I did think people would think of those things.  But no one seemed to mention them.  All that most (not all, most) people care about is direct damage.  That is a shame because there is so much more to strategy and winning than that.  Doomforge is one of the few that realizes this (again, there are a few others too).  I'm sorry if my comments were offensive, but I was just being honest.

And a lot of the things on my list are not rubbish.  Don't you understand that when you use an ability (that can only be used once like resurrection), and you get good morale, you get to do another REAL ACTION quicker?  I don't know how many times I've effectively used Angels because I resurrected a tough stack right away, then was able to get a huge attack in again before some of the other units even moved because of a morale boost.  Again, just one example.  ALL of the specials listed above can have this.

As far as the Necro ones, take them off the list if you'd like.  It doesn't change the fact that specials are often more useful than direct damage.  Remember, you STILL do 1/2 as much damage, but you ALSO get the special!

You're right about soldier's luck with the specials.  But also remember it's only with certain ones.  It does nothing with runes.  Nothing with magic.  Nothing with resurrection.  Yadda, yadda, yadda.  So while I COMPLETELY welcome it (and go for it if I have luck), it is not quite as good.  But that is a good point to bring up.  It's one of the great benefits for luck!

I haven't heard any counter-arguments to the ones I listed above yet (except the soldier's luck and Necro).  Anyway, it doesn't matter.  I'll keep my 79% win ratio in duel by continuing with morale advantages, taking advantage of specials, etc.

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted March 21, 2007 01:10 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 13:11, 21 Mar 2007.

Morale MAY be good for specials but damage is the most important thing in this game... I mean, EVERY curse/bless does something to the damage. TWICE as much damage and an immediate effect (not a retaliation in-between) is certanly better than Morale. I'm not saying is MUCH better, as 66% bonus to Luck and 40% for Morale should make them equally strong IMO.

Duel heroes don't have much luck + Ossir, for example, which has luck, has such a poor army because Nival knew Luck + Avenger would devastate everything. He already is one of the best heroes there. Duel is imbalanced in terms on normal play, because the armies are so different (Sinitar army .vs Jhora ... give me a break) and yet Sinitar proves powerful because some things in this game are imbalanced and overpowered, like the spells of Sinitar (and he doesn't even have Warlock's Luck!!!). But in the Duel Nival changed their armies based on how strong they are and NOT on normal play (Sinitar should NOT have such a weak army... what the hell? does he creeps slowly? I don't think so)

Sinitar does less than 10000 Experience
Jhora does more than 16000

... is that fair?

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Pomo
Pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted March 21, 2007 02:45 PM

Dfortae - I do see your point (and I already did), and it is an important one, but I took exception to the implication that we're just a bunch of idiots who're too blind to see what's right in front of us. People simply have different views, and the views are most certainly not unreasonable ones.

The main argument in favour of 1 point of luck over 1 point of morale has been stated previously - all things equal it is ALWAYS better to frontload as much damage as possible, because by doing so you reduce your opponents potential to kill you. When you get a luck roll, you always get to use the effect apart from overkilling a stack. When you get a morale roll the stack may not be alive to use it... may be puppeted, frenzied etc. if it's a shooter it may be blocked, yada yada. There's also soldiers luck as we've talked about.

Of course (as you have argued) there are other things to combat as well... And in those cases where luck doesn't apply, morale is obviously stronger. Whether it's better or not overall isn't really so clear cut.

The other part of the argument concerns the skill leadership against the skill luck - and here I tend to think it's pretty clear cut in favour of luck in most cases. Luck has much better abilities associated with it and you can probably reach +5 morale without leadership anyway.

Anyway, I think we ultimately both understand all the arguments so there's little use re-hashing them... We just don't share the same opinion.
____________
linkTouched by His Noodly Appendage

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 21, 2007 03:13 PM

Sinitar in duel - wimpie, c'mon smallest army, little ammount of mana and no warlock's luck (with 4 or 5 luck? why?) Someone has been really drunk while balancing him.

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted March 21, 2007 03:17 PM

Anyway, this Every Level's Weakest creature has turned into a Which is better - Morale or Luck?

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Pomo
Pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted March 21, 2007 03:19 PM
Edited by Pomo at 15:20, 21 Mar 2007.

Quote:
Anyway, this Every Level's Weakest creature has turned into a Which is better - Morale or Luck?


Just about every thread does these days Every big thread around is majorly off topic lol.
____________
linkTouched by His Noodly Appendage

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Sprite_master
Sprite_master


Hired Hero
war dancer
posted March 23, 2007 02:52 AM

well that is tottaly right

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted March 23, 2007 12:13 PM

I think the weather is pretty good today just a few clouds here and there
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Map also hosted on Moddb

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 23, 2007 12:22 PM

No way, it rains here. Aww, I will have to drive in that damn rain at night again ><

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siinn
siinn


Adventuring Hero
posted March 23, 2007 04:44 PM

Quote:
I just named a few. I thought everyone would realize there are many more and could come up with some themselves.
I guess people can't do that.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. I'll keep my 79% win ratio in duel by continuing with morale advantages, taking advantage of specials, etc.


mouarf t'es bien plus qu'arrogant là ptit gars: t'es magistralement vaniteux!

I say keep cool, have a drink, put yourself on the sofa and relax!
then stop playing multi for one of two days, take a breath outside your house and relax again mister 79% of win ratio
sooooooooo impresive!

by the way I agree with you: I think moral is a bit better than luck.
one point that hasn't been seen it this off topic thread: heroes with good leadership may use mixed armies of differents troups.
such an army without morale = digging your own grave

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted March 23, 2007 11:26 PM

Quote:
I say keep cool, have a drink, put yourself on the sofa and relax!
then stop playing multi for one of two days, take a breath outside your house and relax again mister 79% of win ratio
sooooooooo impresive!


LOL

Quote:

by the way I agree with you: I think moral is a bit better than luck.
one point that hasn't been seen it this off topic thread: heroes with good leadership may use mixed armies of differents troups.
such an army without morale = digging your own grave



Yes!  I'm glad you mentioned it because I didn't want to mention any other benefits.  Glad to hear some other creative usages of morale.  I have dominated a game with multiple castles with super high morale.  I mixed the best troops into a single army to make them undefeatable.  Of course, one would argue that online games don't last that long (which is true).  But against the computer they do.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 24, 2007 12:46 AM

You just have to take the full picture into consideration in this discussion. I'm not saying that Morale is bad, nor that Leadership is bad, but apprarantly, 90 % of the forumers prefer Luck, and maybe they are just plain mistaken ... but, just to comment on what you say:

- Yes, Leadership is good, because it allows you to mix armies. However, if you have only one type of creatures, you will get +2 Morale, which coupled with a couple of artifacts makes Leadership useless. This, therefore, would seem to level out in the end.

- Yes, Leadership not only adds damage, but also potential in terms of extra movement, extra use of enemy retaliations, extra chance of triggering special abilities, etc. However, Luck also has some extra uses - such as lucky attack means possibly no enemy retaliation (due to stack being taken out) or retaliation damage reduced, which means lower losses; plus Soldier's Luck will increase your chance for special abilities to trigger. This, therefore, would seem to level out in the end.

I'm not saying this to prove that one is better than the other - frankly, I don't care that much, and of course both are nice, but bottom line is, that 90 % of the forumers prefer Luck, and this would seem to indicate that something could need tweaking. Maybe they are just mistaken, and dfortae is the great mastermind that figured it all out, that may be - but well, I still it's worth considering, whether something should be done.
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What will happen now?

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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted March 24, 2007 03:34 AM

Quick question:  Sinitar's special changed in 2.1.  Did this affect duel mode?
____________
Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 24, 2007 11:34 AM

[offtopic]

omg alci is a moderator! : O

[/offtopic]



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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted March 24, 2007 01:26 PM
Edited by dfortae at 15:00, 24 Mar 2007.

Quote:
I'm not saying this to prove that one is better than the other - frankly, I don't care that much, and of course both are nice, but bottom line is, that 90 % of the forumers prefer Luck, and this would seem to indicate that something could need tweaking.


LOL.  I understand.  I have beat about 80% in duel, so most of the forumers (if they've played duel) have probably been beaten by me.

Edit: This is a joke in case someone thinks I'm being "arrogant" again.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted March 24, 2007 03:02 PM

It crossed my mind for a split sec!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted March 25, 2007 12:24 PM

I really understand the power of morale with abilities getting quicker actions.

HOWEVER, damage is the most important thing. Why? Well, let's say you ressurect some Palas with Angels.. Why do you ressurect them? TO DEAL DAMAGE

it's as simple as that

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted March 25, 2007 12:45 PM

Luck or morale, mass haste or mass righteous might, damage or initiative... Who cares, you need both to deal damage anyway.
Plus, it's quite pointless to compare luck and morale without taking perks into consideration.
____________

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