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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Improved growth chards.
Thread: Improved growth chards.
Halm
Halm


Hired Hero
posted March 09, 2007 01:47 AM
Edited by Halm at 15:13, 10 Mar 2007.

Improved growth chards.

Hi there,
first of all I'll must excuse for my medicore English, but hopefully numbers are the best language. I have seen these growth chards on "heroesofmightandmagic.com" and think they are a good heap of information and have good numbers like "powergrowth". But there are also numbers like "average hp, or average attack" which are pretty useless. If I speak if a "creature" I will usually refer to it's hole population!
So I took my informations form there, but in order to improve it, I will introduce some more usefull numbers:

efdmg; effektive dmg: Damage done by a hole population of creatures to a Creature with defence 20, per turn. (turn=1.0 at the Atb bar).
Note that the minotaures and Hunters strikes twice dealing double damage, but all other spezials are ignored. [Poor paladins, ghosts or grim raiders ... ]

efHp; effektive Hp: The summ of all Hp are only usefull if you want to know how susceptible an army is to beeing nuked away. In most cases it's more interesting to know how much damage a creature can absorb, in this case it is attacked by a creature with attack 20. This is the effektive Hp value of the hole population (with creature boosting buildings).

Ki ; Killerindex: dmg/vs Hp:  The quotient of effektive dmg/effektive Hp. This indicates which creatures are tanks, and which are (fragile) killers.

<0,2 are usual values for tanks.
0,2-0,3 are "normal" creatures. 0,25 sems to be the balanced creature like the Angle.
And >0,3 are (fragile) killers.  (The ultimative creature here is the hunter which is above 1, which means per 1.0 time-units at the atb-bar he can kill him self!)

Just for personal interest. Could someone test if the AI always attacks the creature with the highest killerindex? (without spezials like battle frenzy of cause, and if a range creature is blocked it's Ki is halfed...)

I hope it won't confuse, but I always refer to the upgraded version of cause:
Now the table is posted below.
____________

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Halm
Halm


Hired Hero
posted March 10, 2007 02:33 PM
Edited by Halm at 15:14, 10 Mar 2007.

And as picture, asumed all buildings in the castles are built:

[/URL]

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 10, 2007 04:24 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 16:30, 10 Mar 2007.

That's nice of you.. I've done a weekly dmg and survivability chart already, btw, though I did not take initiative into consideration.

Well, good job anyway : ) The numbers aren't that misleading here as they were in a simple damage/week chart, still, there are some things that may fool newbie players (like the total HP of sylvan town, well, it's the most pathetic in fact, not second.. except that treants offer ridiculous boost). But that's the fault of the statistics' mechanism. For all those who like "averages" - if I'm an idiot and you're smart, we're both half-idiots by average Does it make sense? No. Like all average ratings, it does not.

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted March 10, 2007 04:33 PM

Average or Total things are just for fun they don't prove anything

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted March 11, 2007 01:47 PM

What do you mean it "doesn't prove anything"? What should it prove?

I say they're still useful -- the only downside is that some "abilities" can't be put into the chart. Though for example, hunter's double shot is pretty easy to calculate.

It's really important to know that Hunters deal very much damage but are very fragile, so the chart says it well

For fun or not, the game uses these "souless" numbers to calculate

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted March 11, 2007 03:32 PM

Yep, the charts are key to being a good player.  If you have good "experience" but don't know the details about the chart, and you play someone that has BOTH, you will loose.

Statistics and knowledge of how to take advantage of them are what makes a good player.  Being good at one or the other (experience vs statistics) just makes an ok player.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 11, 2007 04:43 PM

Agreed, that's why I love charts! But, I didn't mean the charts themselves, guys.. i meant the "average" value given at the end of each chart. They are misleading..

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Halm
Halm


Hired Hero
posted March 11, 2007 09:37 PM
Edited by Halm at 21:55, 11 Mar 2007.

Sure usually charts should not be taken too serious.

An good example would be:
If I ask someone because he doesn't like the Inquisitor, the first reason stated is, "the marksmen do more damage than Inqisitors".
As we can see, they do the same (eff)dmg.

Then it's complained about the price.

But why must the Inqisitors be 3,75 times more expensive? Because they have 3 times more (eff)Hp and can cast spells.
Doesn't that sounds fair? But why don't like many experience players the inquisitors?
And that is the point where the chart can't help you anymore.

Sure good players know how to protect their archers so the Hp (per gold) of them are not that important as their damage (per gold).

If someone play this way because of experience or because of knowledge is pretty unimportant.


But I think these effDmg and effHp are good numbers to avoid comparing apples with pears, while reducing the numbers to an minimum. If it's an archer or not, or has other abilitys you have still to consider on your own.
But that is good, if someone had the perfect charts. The AI would be able to beat us humans.

But one step into this direktion: So which creature may I attack first?

[/URL]

Maybe the AI usues similar nummbers when it decides to attack your griffins (or Imp, Ghost, Blood Fury, Genie, Hunter, Berserker) first.

PS: I think the chart of the AI isn't even able to consider the incorporal ability of the ghost. If it would. It not would attack them first. Because their Ki would be halfed. But understandig the AI becomes a bit of topic.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 12, 2007 11:03 AM

That's quite an interesting chart you got there, Halm.. And it fits the AI actions nicely! May be useful for a bit of planning..

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted March 13, 2007 03:29 AM

Yes, very nice chart.  Good job on those calculations.

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted March 13, 2007 01:00 PM

Great chart

The thing that I said it 'doesn't prove anything' was about the 'average'/'total' values of a faction. And not about everything chart related.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted March 13, 2007 01:03 PM

What's that ki?

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Pomo
Pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted March 13, 2007 01:09 PM
Edited by Pomo at 13:11, 13 Mar 2007.

killer index I think

My understanding is that it's damage (taking into account attack etc) divided by hit points (taking into account defence).

Basically it means that creatures with high values are good targets, because by killing them you will remove a lot of damage from the enemy army.
____________
linkTouched by His Noodly Appendage

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted March 13, 2007 01:16 PM

And I thought it had something to do with ki energy (monks call it that way)

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Halm
Halm


Hired Hero
posted March 13, 2007 07:30 PM

Quote:
killer index I think

My understanding is that it's damage (taking into account attack etc) divided by hit points (taking into account defence).

Basically it means that creatures with high values are good targets, because by killing them you will remove a lot of damage from the enemy army.


Yes, that was a good short explanation.


Okay Ai behavior is an interessting thing.
Although the chart allready describes the behaviour of the AI surprisingly well. There are still things to consider:

1. Probably spezial abilitys which are more common as incorporallity play a role. Creatures who are not retaible for example get an bonus on their Ki in the Ai calculation. Or with an hydra like attack.

And finally because a pure Ki value would mean an first aid tent would never be attacked... Okay their healling ability could be taken as damage äquivalent.

But these bonuses, if they are there can't be so big because without them it already fits pretty well. Just with creatures who's Ki is close to each other, like sprite or blade dancer, we might see the difference.


2.If an Archer is out of range or if it has melee penally and is blocked by a creature, it's Ki would be halfed. (or /4 for hunters)
-> The AI may know that, run to your Elves but then attack the sprites or wardancers if their stand on an adjecnt field.

This could lead even to stupid actions of the Ai:
At the beginning of the combat. All creatures are out of range. (Assume none has speed >7) So the archers get a penalty. Their Ki is halfed. That means the Ki will not shot your archers but other creatures, despite the fact, that your other creatures can't do any harm soon. (it's own range penalty is equal for all targets so it can be neglegted)

For scouts it's even dived by 4. But I saw the Ai shooting my Assasin after killing the Furys so I doubt that the AI takes their double range penalty into account...or does it fears their poison?  


3.And finally maybe these charts are dynamic. That means if you bless one of your creatures it becomes a more liked traget. Or if it had already striked back. It's more liklely to be an target. Particulary balistas and first aid-tents can't retaliate.^^


And let's remember the Ai avoids the full damage range of your shooters, if it is able to reach you in it's next turn anyway.

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Halm
Halm


Hired Hero
posted March 26, 2007 10:13 PM

The basic tactic of the Ai is to destroy as much of your damage potential without loosing much of his own.
So we keep in mind, there are generally two important things, a creature with an high Ki value is likley to be attacked, but if there are 2 stacks of the same kind of creature attack the one with lower numbers because it's relation won't be so devastating.
Exception: If it can deal much! more damage than the stack has Hp than it might attacks the stronger one because it doesn't want to waste too much damage.


Spezials the AI understands are double attack, no melee penalty or no and unlimited relation or breath attacks. And even the deamons explode correctly.
The first aid tent gets an value equal to their healing power.
-> If you a have single peasents gurading your Marksmen then the griffins (or other big creatures) might attack your ballista because an attack on the peasent would be a waste of dmg.


The AI understand the range penalty of shooter. (except the double penalty for scouts)
-> If you are a hunter freak you might use it and move your sprites or wardancers into full damage range, so the AI might not shot your hunter.

These things are all dynamic. When it blocks a shooter it may attack another creature near by which seems more dangerous now.
Defence and attack are included in it's caculation. Okay probably not very surprsing the formulars are already in the game, why should the Ai have no access to them? :-)


These cognitions lead to funny experiments like this:
I had Marksmen, griffins and squires. (note; it's only possibile if you take the right numbers) Then the Ai fears the relation of the griffins equal to it's bonus by destroying more of my damage potential.
->By pressing "d" with my griffins the Ai attacked the squires. By pressing "w" I could manage to let the AI attack the griffins. Then pressing "d" and so on...



I nearly thought I was on a good way to understand the AI. And I could look for the formulars. Then following happened:
I saw 28 wraiths standing near my (unbuffed) 34 Genies. What happend?

It was their turn and they moved, I feard for my genies ... but then they just did harm touch on them. Thus killing 1 Genie! ... then I said to me: "Scotty beam me up! There is no intelligence down here" and gave up my AI studdies!

Okay, the AI may feared the retaliation of the genies but ... everything included the would still have dealt over 1000 dmg killing over 25 of them. The relation would have been weak killing 1 wraith..



Kodos to the one explaining me this! This screenshot is not the orginal battle in which it occured, but I could reproduce this stupid action. So it's nothing random.

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nocaplato
nocaplato


Adventuring Hero
Lover of Ancient Philosophy
posted March 27, 2007 03:12 AM

Your calculations might be accurate, but the AI seems to make some odd choices with some critters, especially when it comes to creature abilities and spells.  The Wraith's Harm Touch is particularly weird because the AI seems to favor it far too much, as you've hinted at here.  

I can't be sure, since I'm just 'shooting from the hip' here, but I think the Titans Lightning Bolt ability is another that's over used by the AI, given its low comparative damage to the standard attack.  

Off the bat, I also think that creatures with the 'Slow' spell tend to over use it as well (in particular I'm thinking of Arch-liches and Matriarchs here).  Oh, and I'm talking specifically creep stacks, rather than in castle seiges or hero battles.  Though Slow is a great spell typically, when creeping, especially if your hero has multiple creatures or stacks, being slowed means the AI looses a ranged attack.  If the AI is really interested in doing damage, it seems it should always favor the ranged shot over the spell, but it doesn't.  

That may be part of the problem.  In order to compensate for the damage favorability, the programmers must have given some value to spells and specials.  Since it's so hard to predict those abilities in a battle, whatever value the abilities have is almost always going to lead to bad AI decisions from time to time.  In the case of Wraiths, perhaps their outgoing damage is simply not measured against stacks whose current retalitions would do significant amounts of damage.

By the way, another critter that misuses its special, and this drives me nuts, is the Mummy.  Raise Dead is fantastic, but not if you've only managed to kill three or four in a stack of 20.  Raise Dead is almost always blown by Mummies who fail to maximize its benefits, and incure the hit point penalty as a consequence.  It gets stupid when your stack of 40 Peasants can waste entire sets of mummies because the comp. has Raised them every darn turn.

All this is a long way of saying, Don't give up Halm!

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Halm
Halm


Hired Hero
posted March 30, 2007 03:52 PM

Thanks, for your feetback.

You are right maybe the AI favors some spezial ability simply because the programmers scripted it this way. Let's Remember the exploiding deamons.



But now many other things are explainaible:
Why likes the Ai slow?

It wants to maximise it's own and minimize your effdmg out put. So if you have 100 marksmen  against 10 AI shadow witches (one stack). Slow will decrease your dmg out put by 35%. More than one shot would do. If you have just 7 peasants against the shadow witches they will shot. Because killing one peasants kills 1/7 of your effdmg output while slowing one just 1/21.

Still a way to go for the "theory of everything".

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