Heroes of Might and Magic Community
please log in.! Register | Today's Posts | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile

<a href="http://www.game-advertising-online.com/" target=_blank>Game Advertising Online</a><br> banner requires iframes

Heroes 1 (Heroes 2 (Heroes 3 (Heroes 4 (Heroes 5 (Heroes 6 ()

Login:     Username:     Password:    
Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Necro Nerfing ++
Thread: Necro Nerfing ++ [ This thread is 4 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 ]
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted March 12, 2007 09:13 AM

Necro Nerfing ++

I thought making a thread about the changes in 2.1 especially dedicated to the poor Knights and Necros being nerfed. But of course game balance is the clue.

What are you guys opinion about:
- Training being capped to 20 units/week and no piling.
- Necromancy being capped. Is it worth expert necromancy if you will reach your cap anyway?
- Skeleton archers being substituded with "Mark of the Necromancer"
(Dark magic has only 4 abilities now, and corrupted soil is useless)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted March 12, 2007 09:30 AM

Training change is fun, but abusive on cavaliers (perhaps a tier limit instead of global limit?

Necro is weak.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted March 12, 2007 09:43 AM

The necros don't have anymore the massive skellie stacks but they are not in bad shape either. Motn you can get at 1st lvl and start raising dead like crazy which means very little losses if any + all masteries if you so choose. Now necros truly gather numbers though later in the game you may be tempted to wait a few days before attacking a specific stack. Also you may spend ALL your dark points in a battle but believe me it's usually worth it. Necromancy's percentages have increased by a lot so it is always a must and only when you start raising upg creatures or wights you notice the limitation. With necromancy you can get a few more wraiths per week how is that weak? It just requires planning ahead.

And the knights are certainly worse of but we are talking about an imba situation. They are more balanced now, seriously.
____________
We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted March 12, 2007 09:54 AM

Quote:
Training change is fun, but abusive on cavaliers (perhaps a tier limit instead of global limit?

Necro is weak.


Wasn't it equally abusive on cavaliers before the 2.1 change.  It was just more cost effective to train peasants to archers with no limit on number.  But I remember some games where I had excess cash and trained lots of Paladins even before the patch.  A minor point made irrelevant by time but still.

Necro is weak...when?  I wonder how the change will *** with the campaign...Both Necro and Sylvan.
____________
Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted March 12, 2007 10:17 AM

I think that it now costs less to train units.
____________
We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn. And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
alcibiades Online
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted March 12, 2007 10:46 AM
Edited by alcibiades at 10:49, 12 Mar 2007.

I think I have said some of this before, but since it's highly on topic here, I will give my oppinion here.

Necromancy
I think the new Necromancy is an amazing change to the game, that answers nearly all the needs of the Necropolis faction. It allows for a much more varied selection in which creatures to raise, which will give a much better overall balance in creatures, instead of the massive armies of Skeleton Archers (10K+) you would meet in large maps of the old game. This has multiple benefits, in that it makes game more fun, because you don't only have to rely on one stack (i.e. only one tactic to win), and also because it will make game more balanced against Necropolis (with one super-massive stack, a spell like Phantom Forces was über powerfull). The new level also has a weekly raising cap, which will inhibit Necropolis growing unstoppable on maps rich in neutrals.

The not so good things about Necropolis is the building costs, which now no longer match the demands of this faction. Extremely expensive high level dwellings (enourmous Mercury + Ore demands) will threaten to make this faction lagging, now that they no longer amass the same amounts of undead from their class skill.

Also, I think the contribution of Dark Energy to the faction pool is made in the wrong way - more specifically, the Pillar Of Bones has too much importance compared to the Necromancy Skill contribution. Thus, one Pillar Of Bones adds as much Dark Energy as one Level 22 Hero with Expert Necromancy! This removes the focus from leveling up one or more Necromancers; if you have two or three towns, the contribution of a Level 10 Hero (27 DE points!) will be negligable compared to the DE contribution from Pillars.

I think a better solution would be to have each Hero have an individual Dark Energy pool, and then make the Pillar add either a small amount to each hero pool (say, 50 DE), or make the Pillar add an amount (say, 100 or 150 DE) to a global pool that exists beside the individual pool for each Hero. The Hero skill contribution to Necromancy, on the other hand, should be much larger than the current levels - one way to calculate this could be through this formula:

  Basic Dark Energy value at level n:    DE(n)  =  DE(n-1) + n/2 ,   DE(1) = 1

  Skill Advancement:   Advanced = 2 x Basic   Expert = 3 x Basic   Ultimate = 4 x Basic

The exact formula is less important (this is a recursive formula, so DE(1) = 1; DE(2) = 2; DE(3) = 3.5; etc.), this specific formula would yield a Level 24 Expert Necromancer to have 450 DE from his Necromance skill, which is considerably more than the current level (183 points) but combined with lesser contributions from Pillars could work fine. The important think is that Necromancer would be less dependant on number of towns, and more dependant on the skill and level of his Hero, which I think is the better solution.

Training
I think the addition to Training is a nice attempt to fix the problem, but I'm afraid that it will prove to be only a short term solution. As most players know by now, it's more longer the winning to tactic to train Marksmen, rather you should train Paladions, for the perfect combo of +17 Paladins each week (if the gold allows). I'm afraid this means that the problem is not solved, only shifted away from Marksmen.

What they should do is make a relative limit to how many units you could train each week. They could make the absolute limit (20 units) exist, but there's really no need for it. Let's consider this example:

Training Grounds: Can train maximally +25 % weekly growth.
Halls of Heroes: Can train another +25 % weekly growth.
Expert Trainer: Adds +25 % to number from buildings.
Elraths Sentinel: Adds +25 % to Training Limit.

This would yield the following numbers (assuming all units are trained) (numbers are rounded up in this calculation):

Effective growth with 25 % limit:
Paladins:     4 + 1     = 5
Inquisitors:  6 + 2 - 1 = 7
Squires:     20 + 5 - 2 = 23
Marksmen:    24 + 6 - 5 = 21
Conscripts:  44 - 6     = 38

Effective growth with 50 % limit:
Paladins:     4 +  2      = 6
Inquisitors:  6 +  3 -  2 = 7
Squires:     20 + 10 -  3 = 27
Marksmen:    24 + 12 - 10 = 26
Conscripts:  44 - 12      = 32

Effective growth with 75 % limit:
Paladins:     4 +  3      = 7
Inquisitors:  6 +  5 -  3 = 8
Squires:     20 + 15 -  5 = 30
Marksmen:    24 + 18 - 15 = 27
Conscripts:  44 - 18      = 26

Effective growth with 100 % limit:
Paladins:     4 +  4      = 8
Inquisitors:  6 +  6 -  4 = 8
Squires:     20 + 20 -  6 = 34
Marksmen:    24 + 24 - 20 = 28
Conscripts:  44 - 24      = 20


Potentially, one could change the numbers to adjust this, if one find the numbers to be unfavorable, but I think this would give a much more balanced solution to the Training issue, because it would take into account the existing weekly growth, and this also inhibit triple or quadoble growth of some high-tier units.
____________
Heroes 7 - News overview | Heroes 7 - Discussion thread

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted March 12, 2007 11:15 AM

Quote:
The necros don't have anymore the massive skellie stacks but they are not in bad shape either. Motn you can get at 1st lvl and start raising dead like crazy which means very little losses if any + all masteries if you so choose. Now necros truly gather numbers though later in the game you may be tempted to wait a few days before attacking a specific stack. Also you may spend ALL your dark points in a battle but believe me it's usually worth it. Necromancy's percentages have increased by a lot so it is always a must and only when you start raising upg creatures or wights you notice the limitation. With necromancy you can get a few more wraiths per week how is that weak? It just requires planning ahead.

And the knights are certainly worse of but we are talking about an imba situation. They are more balanced now, seriously.


I find this system weak for several reasons:

1. The necromancy % is too high compared to your DE points. You won't be able to raise even half of the proposed liches most of the time.. which I find annoying.
2. You can do it once per week, unless you want to raise zombies or ghosts ofc, but don't expect too much of them, because the DE supply is quite low and better creatures require TONS of it. Say, if you have chosen the liches, you will just get +6 liches per week (around..) and that's it, assuming you'll find a spellcaster every week..
3. Some high tier creatures give relatively weak undead to raise. Like, spectres from nightmares? meh.
4. It requires a specific creature to raise.. ok, you can kill some spellcasters to get those liches you're after, but how much of them is present on the map? How much is close to you? To make an effective use of the system, you'd need to devote yourself to tracking the right creeps and raising them.. That requires great planning.. and even if you know the map, what if you need to turn back from your path? Whoopsie.. no necromancy this week again.
5. DE vanishes each week, sometimes forcing you to spend it on worthless creatures.. or waste it. Bah.
6. If you've raised, say, 10 vamplords in the beginning of the week, which drained all your DE, and met a pack of "future liches" two days after that, you have to either waste the liches because of your lack of DE, or return to that place in next week.. which kinda limits your movement, ties you to a specific, already cleaned place..
7. Both upgraded and non-upgraded creatures are raised, so you have to carry two types of each creature, meaning you will have to travel with quite reduced army.

I know that skeleton archers were *too* effective, but the current system just pales in comparison!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
alcibiades Online
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted March 12, 2007 12:18 PM

Is that the general experience, that the new DE system provides Necro too few creatures, or is there an early / late game issue (so that in beginning Necro is lacking, but later gains speed)? And would it not seem that the new system is constructed in a way to favor mixed armies rather than focus solely on one creature - which is why to focus on Liches, for instance, will be a problem in early game?
____________
Heroes 7 - News overview | Heroes 7 - Discussion thread

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted March 12, 2007 12:46 PM

This has been most enlightening so far. I haven't really got to try out the new ways yet as I am in the middle of other games, but I look forward for my next necro-game. The goal should of course be equal powered factions when played on its best. Still Nival could have forseen most of these problems earlier instead of let the p(l)aying customer do the all the work. Heroes V has really changed since the start, who knows how it will be after the next expansion.

____________
Darkeye

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dschingi
dschingi


Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
posted March 12, 2007 03:27 PM

I haven't played Necropolis often since the 2.1 patch, but the new systems seems to be a nice way out of the too stong Necromancy. Now it's not as monotonous as before, which was another problem. The only real flaw I noticed: When your DE is gone, fighting neutrals has no benefits in terms of raising new creatures. I just miss the feeling of a real Necro who can wander around the map and use every peasent or whatever to join his army as undeads after he defeats them.
About the balance: I'm not sure if the Pillar of Bones should have such a high impact on your DE, but giving more DE depending on hero lvl wouln't be a good solution either because then you would just build more heroes and again you could raise too many creatures.
The balance between early and late game seems to be good since raising is now capped per week it's similar to an extra growth of some creatures.

@doomforge
Quote:
7. Both upgraded and non-upgraded creatures are raised, so you have to carry two types of each creature, meaning you will have to travel with quite reduced army.

According to your 2nd point ("You can do it once per week") you should have enough chances to get creatures you already have in your army . Or else you could still leave one position blank in these battles and let a secondary hero carry them.

Your other points are just matter of taste and balance issues (i.e. things that weaken Necromancy)
____________
open source for an open mind

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Ma_trix
Ma_trix


Adventuring Hero
Carpe Diem
posted March 12, 2007 05:37 PM

IMHO in case of Dark Energy there are two main issues to be fixed:
- extremeley annoyng DE points vanishing at end of week. Why to hell can't they be collected during several weeks? Stupid and highly limiting.
- ammount of DE gained from heroes - now it's ridiculous! I don't know exacly how but they have to be adjusted seriously - maybe Alcibiades' way may be good.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
alcibiades Online
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted March 12, 2007 06:47 PM

Quote:
About the balance: I'm not sure if the Pillar of Bones should have such a high impact on your DE, but giving more DE depending on hero lvl wouln't be a good solution either because then you would just build more heroes and again you could raise too many creatures.


I didn't write that very explicit, but the idea would be that you would no longer have one great unified DE pool. The current system is this:

Unified DE Pool
DE = Sum(DE from Pillars) + Sum(DE from Heroes) + Grail bonus

Instead of this model, I would suggest something where each Hero has a singular DE pool. With regard to the Pillars, this could be solved in two ways - either they could contribute a fixed amount to each Hero (easy, but bad for balance), or they could contribute to a common pool, which can be accessed by all Heroes. I favor the latter solution, because it will make it easier to balance the Pillar, and it will reduce the potential of misuse by many Heroes. Let me sketch how it could work:

Common DE Pool
This Pool can be accessed by all Heroes, like the current Unified DE Pool.
DE(common) = Sum(DE from Pillars) + Grail Bonus

Hero DE Pool
DE from Skills and Abilities

Total Hero DE resource = Common DE + Hero DE

The point with this would be:

- Pillars would still only contribute once to national DE, and would therefore add fixed amount (100 DE for instance). [If Pillars add to each Hero (say, 50 DE to each), nations with many Heroes will get a very high benefit.]

- Hero DE contribution could be increased. This would not be overpowered, because your main Hero cannot draw on supporting Heroes, except for what they raise themselves. Your main Hero will therefore not get unreasonable DE amounts at hand (though supporting Heroes will still be able to raise from their own armies).


Besides this, it would be really nice to have some more abilities that relate to Dark Energy. Lord Of The Undead, for instance, could very well add some sort of DE bonus (instead of a now useless 5 % Necromancy bonus!), and it could be fun to have something in Dark Magic (that now needs an ability!) and possibly Luck to relate to Dark Energy. Some suggestions:

Dark Brand: Hero will not only regain Mana but also Dark Energy from damage done to targets suffering from Mark Of The Necromancer. Bonus is Damage / 50 (could be tweaked, should only give a relatively small contribution). Requires Dark Energy > Master Of Pain. Prerequisite for Corrupted Soil.

Necromancers Luck: Depending on Heroes Luck, there is a chance that Hero will consume only half the normal number of DE points when raising creatures. Requires Luck > Dead Man's Curse.

Master Of Dead: The Hero will always raise the upgraded form of the target unit, even when the normal relation will provide only the basic form. Thus, the Hero with this skill will be able to raise not Bone Dragons, but Spectral Dragons after fighting Green Dragons. DE cost of the raised unit will be normal for its kind. Requires Leadership > Herald Of Death.

____________
Heroes 7 - News overview | Heroes 7 - Discussion thread

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Pomo
Pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted March 12, 2007 09:20 PM bonus applied.

I'm not so sure I agree with you about the necessity for pillar of bones to provide proportionally less DE than is currently the case. It seems to me that having it tied to a town structure is a means of assuring that your capacity to produce extra troops remains proportional to what it would be without necromancy - for maps with one, two or three towns. So say hypothetically (and forgetting about the 200 base for a moment) that the DE you get from the pillar is worth 10% of your weekly power growth - that proportion will remain roughly equivalent when you get a second town, because in addition to eventually doubling your base troop producing capacity, you also get a second pillar of bones. If you tie it much more strongly to hero/necromancy level it seems to me you might be likely to end up with a situation where necro was stronger on maps with fewer towns, and weaker on those with more - the % of your total power growth provided by necromancy will get progressively smaller with more towns, because your hero will probably level up at a similar pace, but the pillar will provide less. By comparison, Haven can still produce the same % additional power growth through training with each new town. Following this line of reasoning, my personal preference might be to go the other way in fact - reduce the base DE pool and enhance the amount provided by the pillar. I'm not sure exactly what to do with the hero contribution, although I do think there should be one.

With regard to Haven to Alc's proposal - + 17 paladins is well utterly stupid and is probably the most prominent example of how different maps (richness here) favours different factions more or less - something that I think should be eliminated as far as possible.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Destro23
Destro23


Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
posted March 12, 2007 10:18 PM bonus applied.
Edited by Destro23 at 22:21, 12 Mar 2007.

I have played necropolis a fair bit since 2.1 patch and have noticed some things.  Bear in mind, I did not play H5 before the expansion, I was playing some other games and assumed H5 would be a wash such as H4 was.  

Anyway.. the DE points are certainly seemingly low. However in weeks 3-4 they can be used to a massive advantage.  I also mainly play multiplayer online on player made maps.  With 2 necropolis towns your DE pool is quite large.  I have had some nice raisings from neutral garrisons, utopias, and other high level battles around week 4.  For example when taking a utopia you are often offered 6 or more spectrals, or 10 bone dragons. No, usually you won't have the points to raise them all but 5 spectrals is a VERY nice addition to my army in week 4.   Another thing I really like is when taking a neutral garrison with a number of different mobs you have the option of what to raise.

The main thing with necro now is to pick and choose what you raise.  In early weeks its not so important.  but in later weeks, and even as early as week 2 its good to decide what you want a nice big stack of. I found the necromancy chart that was published here in another thread to be extremely useful, I was able to see that if I wanted to make a vampiric army I needed to hold off on killing that horde of berserkers till day 1.  

Another strategy I have used which has worked fairly well was taking your day 1 starting army adding some skeleton archers each week leaving everything else behind int he town and raising your way to progress.  If you lose a few here and there its not a huge issue, because your money is being saved for builds and for a massive creature buyout when it comes time to battle the opponent.


In regards to your other concern involving mark of the necromancer.  Have you tried this ability yet? If anything I feel this skill is WAY more powerful than any other mark in the game.  Its also fuel for the necropolis to perform combats that other towns simply cannot accomplish.  With each hero starting with Raise Dead spell, its amazing to have a (yes) infinite mana pool.  This skill also goes extremely well with the Necromancers already low mana pool, they seem to evolve knowledge at a very slow pace rivaled maybe only by warlocks.  In a few games with exp summoning magic, a ring of sar-issus and a mark of the necromancer on a big neutral stack I am casting Fist of Wrath for 1 mana and earning back 6 to my pool.  This is no nerf.

EDIT ( Needed to add )

The reason these points are not accumulated from week to week is simple. You would sit back, use your army for 2,3,4 weeks accumulate 1500+ DE points and boom raise a stack of 100 vamps, or 25 wraiths, or 15 spectral dragons.  Allowing necroplois to accumulate these points would mean they could attack a massive stack very early on in the game, not concerned whatsoever with the troop losses they might incur by doing so (however minimal TY raise dead and Mark of the necromancer) As they would be able to raise an army twice as powerful as the one that originally attacked the stack.

I can't comment on training, I havn't played vs haven or with them yet.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Pomo
Pomo


Famous Hero
The lone peasant
posted March 12, 2007 10:56 PM
Edited by pomo at 22:59, 12 Mar 2007.

Hmm yeah true I hadn't read the dark brand thing properly, it sounds like it would lead to a lot of exploits - attack shooters or no retal creatures - leave a stack to die with MotN - raise dead... let them die some more. Could lead to very boring turns for multiplayer when your necro opponent decides to simply farm DE this way.

Edit - Destro, if you look in the H5 Manual (stickied at the top of this board, or at Age of Heroes) you can find exact % chance for primary attribute development for each class - and yes Knowledge is one of necro's lowest along with attack (think it's 15% each from memory, SP 45% Def 25%)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
alcibiades Online
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted March 13, 2007 05:45 AM

Quote:
I'm not so sure I agree with you about the necessity for pillar of bones to provide proportionally less DE than is currently the case. It seems to me that having it tied to a town structure is a means of assuring that your capacity to produce extra troops remains proportional to what it would be without necromancy - for maps with one, two or three towns. So say hypothetically (and forgetting about the 200 base for a moment) that the DE you get from the pillar is worth 10% of your weekly power growth - that proportion will remain roughly equivalent when you get a second town, because in addition to eventually doubling your base troop producing capacity, you also get a second pillar of bones. If you tie it much more strongly to hero/necromancy level it seems to me you might be likely to end up with a situation where necro was stronger on maps with fewer towns, and weaker on those with more - the % of your total power growth provided by necromancy will get progressively smaller with more towns, because your hero will probably level up at a similar pace, but the pillar will provide less. By comparison, Haven can still produce the same % additional power growth through training with each new town. Following this line of reasoning, my personal preference might be to go the other way in fact - reduce the base DE pool and enhance the amount provided by the pillar. I'm not sure exactly what to do with the hero contribution, although I do think there should be one.


Pomo, that is one very excellent post!

That is certainly a reasoning I can second, and I have to agree that one should be careful not to make things to variable on things that are map dependant, like town numbers etc.

I would say, however, that one could still make the contribution from Hero skills etc. larger (but remain DE from Pillars as they are in common pool) - that would make Pillars contribute proportionally less, for sure, but if they still contribute, say, 50 %, I don't think it'll be too much of a problem, and it will make Leveling Up more fun. And if you don't join the Hero specific pools, that will offer an incentive to level up your main Hero (which is good) without having DE ressource go out of hand, because he cannot draw on the DE from secondary Heroes.

Just to give an impression, I've made the table with the numbers from the formula I suggest. The formula itself is no higher trueth - you could choose any other formula, but this one gives a fairly nice rate of growth without getting out of hand in late game (like an exponential one will!). You will notice, that with Expert Necromancy, your Hero contribution will match one Pillar at level 14, two Pillars at level 20 and three Pillars at level 24. It's not like the Pillars are going to lose importance completely (except, maybe, on maps with only one town, but on such maps, you will rarely reach level 24 I think). Notice also, that if you take into account the fixed 200 point bonus, you Hero will contribute 50 % first at level 21!




About the Dark Brand thing: That was just something I threw in to give an example. I have no clue whether it's balanced (probably not, but then one can find another sugestion). The idea was just, that it would be nice to have some new abilities to relate to the new Necromancy system.
____________
Heroes 7 - News overview | Heroes 7 - Discussion thread

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Sunfury
Sunfury

Tavern Dweller
posted March 13, 2007 05:56 AM

Yeah, the new Neco is weak. I dislike the DE thing, Training is so much stronger by now.
____________
The wrath of the sun is uppon you!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted March 13, 2007 06:03 AM

Quote:
In regards to your other concern involving mark of the necromancer.  Have you tried this ability yet?


I believe it is the best way of creeping in necropolis, although it is a mere shadow of itself from pre-2.1 patches. You could either set MoTN on your uber stack of skeletons which the enemy NEEDED to kill, and regain kazillion points of mana thanks to them, or on a enemy creature and skeleton archers delivered a blow worth another kazillion points of mana.

Quote:
If anything I feel this skill is WAY more powerful than any other mark in the game.


I disagree. It's useful, but not as useful as MoTWizard. And MoTDamned can be a real killer too. I'd say it's on pair with MoTD, with MoTW taking the first place.

Quote:
In a few games with exp summoning magic, a ring of sar-issus and a mark of the necromancer on a big neutral stack I am casting Fist of Wrath for 1 mana and earning back 6 to my pool.  This is no nerf.


The mark worked in similiar way earlier too, with much better necromancy, so it's a nerf definitely. And the best usage of MoTN is to use it together with archliches' decay. Good, constant mana refueling.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Sunfury
Sunfury

Tavern Dweller
posted March 13, 2007 06:05 AM

I realy wonder why we LG/Es always have an advantage over the bad guys. Seems unfair for me....
____________
The wrath of the sun is uppon you!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted March 13, 2007 07:44 AM bonus applied.

Quote:
I disagree. It's useful, but not as useful as MoTWizard. And MoTDamned can be a real killer too. I'd say it's on pair with MoTD, with MoTW taking the first place.

Well, the only thing is that MotN is just too powerful at creeping - it gives you infinite mana and infinite Raise Deads which means always no losses.

I really don't think Necro is weak, just that it can't use Phatom Forces on skellies or overpowered Battle Frenzy like before. Necro was nerfed, but MotN at Racial abilities is an improvement for creeping - one big improvement. The only thing is that you can't abuse with Battle Frenzy and Necklace of the Bloody Claw anymore, but hey, that was an imba situation!

About the Pillar of Bones stuff: I really don't think Necromancy should increase with the level of the hero at all. I mean, look at the other racials - do they increase with the level?
The thing is that a 20 lvl hero should NOT make his racial stronger. Does Irresistible Magic improve with the level? I don't think so. Why should Necromancy improve? Personally, I think it should only give some fixed numbers based on the mastery of the racial skill not dependant on the hero's level. You MAY raise the same number of armies as a level 1, but your army will be stronger because of the better stats of a level 20 hero.

About the Necromancy percentages and amount of DE: I agree the percentages are just WAAY too high. This just makes you fight with 1-2 neutrals and then don't attack something else because you won't be able to raise more creatures (if you care about raising creatures, that is). I think they should be decreased to the 2.0 ones (or a little more) to make you fight with more neutrals until the end of the week.
With so high Necromancy percentages, I don't even know why they exist. With only one fight you almost deplete your DE points so...

I would suggest some changes:
Lord of the Undead: gives 10% Necromancy bonus and 80 Dark Energy points and +1 Knowledge ofc.
Pillar of Bones: gives 15% Necromancy bonus and 100 Dark Energy points.
Basic, Advanced, Expert and Ultimate Necromancy: they should give 10%, 15%, 20% and 25% Necromancy respectively. Also, they should give a constant DE amount (not dependant on the hero level) like 200 (the base value), 260, 340, 400.

Of course, the numbers I shown above may prove imbalanced but it was just an example of how these things should look.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
[ This thread is 4 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 ] < Prev Thread . . . Next Thread >
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.2236 seconds