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| Thread: Balancing spells |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 22, 2007 05:37 PM |
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SP may create additional magic immunity above 100% for expert magic immunity, if the game allows it ofc. You know, to weaken warlocks' irresistable magic. Since you want to buff destructive which already can win any fight, it's necessary to boost spell protections aswell.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 22, 2007 05:44 PM |
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Idea for Phantom Forces (can't be modded )
Percentage of creatures cloned = 85%+1.5%*SP
at SP 20 it will clone 115%, at SP 10 100%, etc.
Magic Immunity (DoomForge's idea) -> also can't be modded
grants you 100%+2%*SP magic protection. Useful to decrease Warlock's Irresistible Magic
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted March 22, 2007 06:45 PM |
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I like Meteor Shower the way it is now really. Sure it's not much damage but before the nerf, I found myself using it exclusively once my hero was fairly high in level. Now I actually do use fireball/circle of winter/etc. even in those situations so the game seems less like a 1-spell game.
Implosion does plenty of damage already so I really so no reason to improve it (though I might agree with a slight reduction to casting cost).
Word of Light/Curse of the Netherworld I see as convenience spells. Those two schools aren't supposed to be doing direct damage so you can't really make them "on par" with Level 5 spells as that wouldn't be fair. Though I do agree that their current damage is way too low. They should do the damage of an icebolt maybe.
For a Level 1 spell from a school that isn't about direct damage, Fist of Wrath does good enough damage already. I do agree with the suggestion for adding an effect to it.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 22, 2007 06:46 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Meteor Shower
None: 24*SP + 72
Basic: 24*SP + 96
Advanced: 24*SP + 120
Expert: 24*SP + 144
This will make it VERY overpowered. You also have to take into consideration the range of the spell
Actually, I don't think so. If the spell just gives you another Fireball, why bother? Yes, it has larger area than Fireball, and that's good, but it also costs almost the double amount of Mana.
Fireball currently does 20*SP + 20 Damage at Expert Mastery, and Meteor Shower, which is one level higher and costs 90 % more Mana does ... the same! How stupid is that?
And yes, it will make a difference, but not that much. A SP 20 Hero will do 420 Damage with a Fireball, and would be able to do 624 Damage with Meteor Shower - that's 200 extra Damage, but is it more than you pay for? After all, 2 Fireballs will still do more damage (at the same Mana cost) plus with Fireballs, you can have armour damaging effect.
Also take into accound that to reach SP 20, you have to play fairly long time. The enemies Knight hero will have had time to build up a pretty good Attack rating in that time, and will probably also have learned skills such as Attack and Retribution - that adds, say, 35 % damage to his units damage passively. And how much extra damage will that add up to when his Paladins charges into your forces? Probably quite a lot.
So I think it's only fair that a 4th Level destructive spell can hurt a bit ... I do agree, though, that target area of 4 x 4 would have been better.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 22, 2007 06:59 PM |
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Ok, I have updated the main post (changed Haste and Slow and added some stuff (Phantom Forces and Magic Immunity))
I took into consideration Alc's information about Destructive spells, but I still think Meteor Shower is a little too powerful just my oppinion
Also, I let the none-integer values  because they can be easily transformed by rounding them
EDIT: added another version of Implosion
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted March 22, 2007 07:15 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Meteor Shower
None: 24*SP + 72
Basic: 24*SP + 96
Advanced: 24*SP + 120
Expert: 24*SP + 144
This will make it VERY overpowered. You also have to take into consideration the range of the spell
Actually, I don't think so. If the spell just gives you another Fireball, why bother? Yes, it has larger area than Fireball, and that's good, but it also costs almost the double amount of Mana.
Fireball currently does 20*SP + 20 Damage at Expert Mastery, and Meteor Shower, which is one level higher and costs 90 % more Mana does ... the same! How stupid is that?
And yes, it will make a difference, but not that much. A SP 20 Hero will do 420 Damage with a Fireball, and would be able to do 624 Damage with Meteor Shower - that's 200 extra Damage, but is it more than you pay for? After all, 2 Fireballs will still do more damage (at the same Mana cost) plus with Fireballs, you can have armour damaging effect.
Also take into accound that to reach SP 20, you have to play fairly long time. The enemies Knight hero will have had time to build up a pretty good Attack rating in that time, and will probably also have learned skills such as Attack and Retribution - that adds, say, 35 % damage to his units damage passively. And how much extra damage will that add up to when his Paladins charges into your forces? Probably quite a lot.
So I think it's only fair that a 4th Level destructive spell can hurt a bit ... I do agree, though, that target area of 4 x 4 would have been better.
I agree that a Level 4 spell should be better than a fireball but it already is. A fireball hits 9 squares while a Meteor Shower hits 25 squares. That is almost three times the surface area! Sure, 2 fireballs can do more damage for the same mana (if you target the same units) but it also takes 2 turns (and those units not really moving) to pull off. Currently, when more units would be affected, I still shower and when only a fireball's range of units are affected, I pull out the fireball. Before meteor shower was nerfed, I had no reason to EVER pull out anything BUT meteor shower once I had the spell.
Lower the mana cost a bit or something but the damage is fine the way it is really.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted March 22, 2007 07:19 PM |
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Quote:
I agree that a Level 4 spell should be better than a fireball but it already is. A fireball hits 9 squares while a Meteor Shower hits 25 squares. That is almost three times the surface area! Sure, 2 fireballs can do more damage for the same mana (if you target the same units) but it also takes 2 turns (and those units not really moving) to pull off.
I agree about the turn part, but note also that Fireball is also ready for the Master of Fire effect as well.
Quote:
Before meteor shower was nerfed, I had no reason to EVER pull out anything BUT meteor shower once I had the spell.
Except when you also hit your own creatures
Quote:
Lower the mana cost a bit or something but the damage is fine the way it is really.
Maybe we should not increase the damage, but rather make it different (i.e if we want to keep the "low spellpower increase but high base damage" like Stone Spikes, as Alc said, then we should reduce the damage per spellpower )
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted March 22, 2007 07:21 PM |
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You have a good point there. What if we instead gave meteor shower a slight stunning effect? Something along the lines of what circle of winter does to all the things it hits. Since it's an L4, it would get it without requiring you to get a skill for it.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 22, 2007 07:27 PM |
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Meteor Shower does not very much damage, it's not really imba. The only thing is it's range, BUT if you don't have Master of Fire and it's the start of a combat, then of course you should Meteor Shower over Fireball because it will hit many creatures. Later on, you would probably find that it hits as many as Fireball or even your creatures so it's good to change to FireBall then. Meteor Shower won't be used ALL the time.
But yeah, I still think Alc's version is a bit overpowered.
(also, I updated Meteor Shower in the main post... I made a compromise between your's and Alc's version... a little improvement in the base damage)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 23, 2007 12:15 AM |
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24 x Power is probably over the top with a 5 x 5 Area - like I said, it would have made sense to make only 4 x 4 Area for a level 4 spell, and then save 5 x 5 Area for some uber level 5 spell.
By the way, another way to make Meteor Shower different would be to make the damage different through-out the area - for instance, you could make circular boundaries, so that the central spot received highest damage, surrounding 8 tiles received intermediate, and outermost 16 spots only small damage. Or you could make a cross-shaped central area (like Stone Spikes) for full damage, and make remainder reduced damage. After all, it makes sense that the intensity of the bombardment is largest in the middle.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2007 07:49 PM |
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Quote:
By the way, another way to make Meteor Shower different would be to make the damage different through-out the area - for instance, you could make circular boundaries, so that the central spot received highest damage, surrounding 8 tiles received intermediate, and outermost 16 spots only small damage. Or you could make a cross-shaped central area (like Stone Spikes) for full damage, and make remainder reduced damage. After all, it makes sense that the intensity of the bombardment is largest in the middle.
That would ruin the spell. It strength is in efficiency (hitting 3+ units)and quite high dmg if you take that away it will become as weak as chain lightning is now. I think meteor shower is fine the way it is now.(Id love to see the damage increased but i'm the dungeon fan and someone might say i want dungeon overpowered)
About chain lightning, this spell is very weak the way as it is now. In my opinion, if the effect stays the same Nival should increase the damage to at least sellpower*30(on expert) or make it not hitting own units and leave damage as it is now or perhaps 100%-75%-50%-25% chain and leave damage as it is.
I think Implosion needs a boost too to at least 45*spellpower(on expert) because its total damage output is too low if you compare it to area spells like meteor shower or even fireball
Rest spells destructive spells are fine in my opinion.
Oh and they should do something about this lightning mastery , it does almost nothing at the moment
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 24, 2007 12:07 AM |
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Quote:
That would ruin the spell. It strength is in efficiency (hitting 3+ units)and quite high dmg if you take that away it will become as weak as chain lightning is now.
Not necessarily. It would still be usefull with units grouped close together, it would just not be as powerfull with units standing far apart (like, when you get to units each covered by one corner of the spell). I personally think that would be pretty ok.
Quote:
Oh and they should do something about this lightning mastery , it does almost nothing at the moment
Yes, this is easily modded up to 0.5 - but of course, that's not helping you in multiplayer.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 24, 2007 09:38 AM |
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Quote:
Yes, this is easily modded up to 0.5 - but of course, that's not helping you in multiplayer.
How? Please tell me
I updated some spells. Righteous Might (and similar spells) now look as following:
None: 3
Basic: 5+0.1*SP
Advanced: 7+0.2*SP
Expert: 9+0.3*SP
Two reasons for this:
1.To make TowerLord a little more happy
2.This involves some theory: Currently, Haste (30%+1%*SP) with SP 30 gains double effect than with 0 SP. This is exactly the case with the above modification to Righteous Might/Endurance/Suffering.
@feluniozbunio: do you like one of my versions of Implosion or Meteor Shower?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 24, 2007 09:54 AM |
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Quote:
How? Please tell me
You will go to this file: data\GameMechanics\RPGStats\DefaultStats.xdb
I think I have mentioned this file before, if you wanna look into an overall mod of the game, it's well worth reading through this particular file.
In this specific instant, you wanna search for this line:
<EmpoweredLightningATBDrop>0.3</EmpoweredLightningATBDrop>
It's some 15 % down in the file, or so, but easiest just to make a search. I think the line itself needs no further explaining.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 24, 2007 10:02 AM |
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Ah thanks a lot
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 24, 2007 10:06 AM |
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i just found one:
Quote:
Meteor Shower (improved a little base damage)
None - 40+10*SP
Basic - 52+13*SP
Advanced - 64+16*SP
Expert - 76+19*SP
Well it has total damage improved so i love it 
@Towerlord: Might heroes now need ONLY 3-6 abilities and minimal spellpower to be able to fully make use of all light spells. If you compare it to 16+ magic abilities needed by warlocks/wizards which they need to be able to fully unlock their potential. Might heroes already have bonus (better +att/+def points) so why to boost them with godly magic which doesn't need almost ANY requirements(besides few lvl ups). Funny i find building mage guild in Heaven more difficult then fitting those few skills in my hero's build. This is not fair i would say.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 24, 2007 11:41 AM |
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Yes, there is a huge problem with destructive spells.
Level1:
Stone Spikes vs. eldritch ---> eldritch is WAY better for creeping, and later on stone spikes damage is too low anyway with all those meteor showers around, I'd say stone spikes should be buffed a bit
Level2:
Both are OK, but why master of storms is so pathetic? 
Level3:
Both OK, masteries are ok, but why the freeze effect is spread between the affected units? If you hit 2-3, the freezing effect becomes less than marginal. Needs a fix!
Level4:
Meteor shower is cleary better, since it can hit several targets with the same power and can hit more overall.
Chain lightning is weak, consecutive spells are weaker than the first one and the spell cannot target as huge number of targets as meteor shower, which results in WAY lower damage, the spell should be entirely reworked!
Level5:
Implosion is strong, but, as many ppl state, compared to area spells the damage is somewhat low For an "ultimate" spell, which costs a lot of guild resources, the implosion is indeed not very impressive compared to the meteor shower. I'd say the formula should be improved, or the implosion should offer some additional effect.
Armageddon is fine as it is, but there's an obvious problem for warlocks and this spell: it's totally worthless for them, which puzzles me (warlocks were ALWAYS armageddon lovers!). I'd say the best change would be to make irresistable magic affect enemies only, or make black dragons immune to that effect. C'mon, it's a level 5 spell, for now on it's useless for the kings of destructive magic, it's pathetic!!
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 24, 2007 11:48 AM |
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Quote:
Level1:
Stone Spikes vs. eldritch ---> eldritch is WAY better for creeping, and later on stone spikes damage is too low anyway with all those meteor showers around, I'd say stone spikes should be buffed a bit
Stone Spikes has only the base damage a little lower, if you will buff it, it will damage the same as Eldricth Arrow (and will have an area effect)
Quote:
Level2:
Both are OK, but why master of storms is so pathetic?
Currently, the stunning effect multiplies the ATB of the target by 0.7; that means, its highest reduction is lower than 0.3 (if the enemy had 1.0 ATB the effect would have been 0.3, but it's impossible to have 1.0 ATB -- that means it already acted)
Compared to freezing, it's ALWAYS MUCH weaker. Freezing stops your troops from gaining ATB values for 0.3 turns PLUS it reduces the ATB by a random value between 0.0 and 0.3. I think a 0.5 multiplier for Master of Storms would do fine (even for the creatures that are almost to act, freezing sometimes would still be better... not to mention for those that just acted stun would be useless)
Quote:
Level3:
Both OK, masteries are ok, but why the freeze effect is spread between the affected units? If you hit 2-3, the freezing effect becomes less than marginal. Needs a fix!
Maybe because they didn't want Circle of Winter to have a greater effect from Master of Ice than Ice Bolt
Quote:
Level4:
Meteor shower is cleary better, since it can hit several targets with the same power and can hit more overall.
Chain lightning is weak, consecutive spells are weaker than the first one and the spell cannot target as huge number of targets as meteor shower, which results in WAY lower damage, the spell should be entirely reworked!
Agreed, that's why I changed it to 30+30*SP at Expert. Also, I think the stunning effect should spread among the targets, but /2 each time (like the damage)
Quote:
Level5:
Implosion is strong, but, as many ppl state, compared to area spells the damage is somewhat low For an "ultimate" spell, which costs a lot of guild resources, the implosion is indeed not very impressive compared to the meteor shower. I'd say the formula should be improved, or the implosion should offer some additional effect.
Armageddon is fine as it is, but there's an obvious problem for warlocks and this spell: it's totally worthless for them, which puzzles me (warlocks were ALWAYS armageddon lovers!). I'd say the best change would be to make irresistable magic affect enemies only, or make black dragons immune to that effect. C'mon, it's a level 5 spell, for now on it's useless for the kings of destructive magic, it's pathetic!!
About Armageddon and Warlocks I agree completely!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 24, 2007 11:52 AM |
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Hey, maybe stunning and freezing should work differently? They do the same thing now: reduce the ATB. What if stunning worked that way, but freezing i.e. affected target's speed or something like that? Otherwise, there will be always the same problem - "one is better than another", except when they give them exactly the same values, which is obvioulsy weird (why they gave us two exactly the same perks?).
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 24, 2007 11:55 AM |
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Freezing is clearly different than stunning. Stunning multiplies the ATB, that means it's tricky: you should use it on creatures with HIGH ATB so that the reduction will be higher
ex:
0.9*0.5 = 0.45
0.1*0.5 = 0.05
the latter is clearly much weaker
Freezing stops the creature from gaining ATB for 0.3 turns and also reduces its ATB after this by random(0.0, 0.3). They are pretty much different (with Freezing, you don't have to worry about high ATB like with stunning... also, stunning is interesting as it decreases the ATB differently each time, depending on the current ATB of the creature)
BUT it should be 0.5 for stunning to be much fair. (in 1.0 it was 0.3)
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