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| Thread: The Ultimate Skills Discussion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 31, 2007 03:01 PM |
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Nice reviews, although I agree with each and every one of Elvin's comments. 
I will probably post some more later - I would like to think into alternative ways of implementing Ultimate Skills. I think the current model falls short, because it restricts you completely in which skills to take, and often, the skill combinations are not good, they might even be losing! I might go as far as saying that Necropolis is the only one you can really go for, because the combination Attack + Dark Magic + Logistics + Enlightenment is so good for Necropolis. Knight is also ok, because the combination Light Magic + Logistics + Luck + Enlightenment will take you far, althought you will miss Attack and Defence.
Everybody rave about Nature's Luck, but truth to be told, it'll not win you the game in most situations, unless your Hero starts with one of the required skills, so that you can take Light Magic. Without Light Magic you will lose to Necropolis with Dark and Summoning Magic.
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What will happen now?
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 31, 2007 03:08 PM |
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Or start with light magic - there's this unicorn lady there  .
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 31, 2007 03:20 PM |
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The ultimate skill for Knight:
Unstoppable Charge:
The skill isn't amazing-"hero's Retaliation Strike ability inflicts triple damage."
At a first glance, the requirements seems to be fine. The main problem is with the ability "Spoils of War" (explanation is the continuation).
Light Magic: The most popular magic class for Knight. I believe it's also the best. Many units in the army of the Knight are just built for some of those blasses. There's nice probability that it will be offered to you: 8%.
To get the ultimate, you have to pick the Master of Blessings. Pretty nice one. Mass effect to Divine Strengh is useful (not to Angels, but works beatifuly for Marksmen, Imperial Griffin and Paladin) and Cleansing might be always useful, to clean your creatures from curses and bad effects. I think it's the best basic ability of the Light Magic.
The Master of Blessings leads to Guardian Angel: awsome ability! "When all the knight' troops fall dead in combat, an Angel, summoned on a field of battle, resurrects the most powerful group of dead creatures and disappears." This ability is extremely useful. It might safe you from losing. It really helps in the combat. Recommanded for every Knight.
Now, we have to get the Benediction, which is a basic ability of the Counterstrike skill. Very nice one, actually "The Knight receives special combat ability to temporarily raise the morale, initiative, attack and defense of his troops." Works always as Mass magic.
Refined Mana is quite nice ability ("Casters in hero army will spend only half the required mana cost to cast spells.") that could be much more usful at any other army. There's only one caster in the Knight's army, Inquisitor. Very nice ability for his blasses, but doesn't matter much.
Logistics: This skill fits pretty well to every kind of hero. Mostly to Neromancers and Demon Lords that usually start on rough terrain. Anyway, good choise for Knight, gives clear adventage on the adventure map. Nice probabilty of 8%.
Second, you have to gain the ability Pathfinding. Knights usually start on grassy terrain, but there are rough terrains in many maps. So how useful the skill is depends on the adventure map.
Familiar Ground is one of the best skills for Knight and Ranger ("All creatures in hero (Knight or Ranger) army receive +1 for movement speed if the battle is taking place on grassy terrain") just for this ability, it worth to pick Pathfinding even if there isn't rough terrain in the advernture map at all.
Death March is basicly ability of Neromancer, and I don't know how it's or its name related to Knight, but what ever.
Anyway, excellent ability ("All hero's troops gain +4 speed during the siege of an enemy castle"). Very useful at sieges, where the battlefield is just huge, and what you need is extra speed. This ability helped me a lot many times. It requires the ability Expert Trainer that a lot of us use it anyway ("Troop training in Haven towns costs 35% less than normal. Knight must be stationed within the town with Training Grounds built for this effect to take place.") very useful ability for the Knight.
Luck: Quite useful ability for the Knight. Somewhere, it fills empty space in the Knight's abilities, effect and blesses. There isn't even one positive thing that effects on the luck. This why I find this skill quite useful. There's normal probably of 8% to get it.
You need Resourcefulness. Great ability. Helps with finding more resources and with leveling-nice to find in many chests 4000 expirence. This ability is recommanded for every kind of hero.
Tear of Asha Vision is okay (Digging for a Tear of Asha somewhere around its actual location is much more likely to be a success). Not the best ability, and not very useful. Might give you some extra time that would be wasted by digging. But anyway, if you have time problem, just buy new hero and send him to dig.
The main problem, is with the ability Spoils of War ("From each victorious battle, the hero will salvage some gold and resources as spoils of war"). Why? Becuase to get it, you have to gain first the ability Wizard's Reward which is in Enlightenment skill. Enlightenment's skill probability for Knight is only 2%. It will be probably offered until you get to level 50.
Finally, you need Retaliation Strike to use the ultimate.
But anyway, you'll need all the abilities of Counterstrike skill to gain the Ultime (Death March requires Expert Trainer and Refined Mana requires Benediction).
I don't think that Unstoppable Charge, the Knight's Ultimate worth the requirements.
The ultimate skill for Necromancer:
Howl of Terror:
This is a great skill ("Banshee Howl special ability additionally dampens enemy morale by -6"). Using Banshee Howl with this ultimate will make the enemy to skip many turns. The enemy will play very rarely.
The requirements worth it.
Attack: the skill is good pick for Necromacer. There are some units in the Necromancer's army that definitely need empowered damage. The probability is okay, 8%, there's a good chance that it will be offered to you.
Next, you need to gain the ability Battle Frenzy ("Minimum and maximum damage inflicted by each creature under hero's control is increased by 1"). This ability is quite neutral, might help and might harden. Depends in your specific hero.
Cold Steel very nice ability. Gives you extra small ice damage when you attack. Quite useful one.
Next, you'll have to gain Power of Speed ability ("Hero acquires Mass Haste spell on advanced level"). Well, I'm not exited of Necromancers that use Light Magic. It seems like Necropolis army is built for Dark Magics. Anyway, Mass Haste might help a little bit.
To get this ability you'll have to get first the ability of Necromancey, Eternal Servitude ("The Necromancer receives an ability to raise some of the fallen undead creatures in his or her army after combat") Which I like very much. I would gain it anyway. After small battles that you lose a small amount of creatures, you'll get them back.
Logistics: This skill fits pretty well to every kind of hero. Mostly to Neromancers and Demon Lords that usually start on rough terrain. There's nice probablity of 8%.
Pathfinding: This ability is recommanded for Necromancers, that usually start on rough terrain, and progress in the beginning of the game pretty slowly, when they need to capture mines, find chests, etc.
Death March: This is an excellent ability ("All hero's troops gain +4 speed during the siege of an enemy castle"). Very useful at sieges, where the battlefield is just huge, and what you need is extra speed. This ability helped me a lot many times, mostly with Markal, in the third campaign.
Silent Stalker ability mostly helps ("The enemy will see only the strongest creature in hero's army with no number at all. Also this ability allows to see courage of neutral monsters and enlarges hero's field of view by 12 tiles.") First of all, you can know what neutral creatures will do when you'll attack them, if they join, fight or ask to retreat. The second effect is that the enemy can see your strongest unit and can't see the number. For example, if you have ful Necropolis army, he'll see only "Few Spectral Dragons". Sometimes it isn't good, becuase if you are weaker then your enemy, he might think you are very weak and attack you. Smart enemy can recognize that you have this ability (not very hard, by the way) and avoid from attacking you.
Dark Magic: Excellent ability for Necromancer. It seems like he was built for it. The Necromancer has great adventage by using dark spell. All his creatures are immune to many of them. There is a good probablity that the skill will be offered to you, of 8%.
Corrupted Soil: for this ability, you don't need any of the basic abilities of Dark Magic skill, you just need the ability Dark Revelation, which is ability of Enlightenment skill. The probability to get it is good, 8%. It's quite useful skill for Necromancer, but there are much better ones. Worth to pick it only for the Ultimate. The ability itself (Corrupted Soil) is pretty strong; every time that enemy creature moves it recives some damage. Even though the damage is very low (like the level of your hero) it might help a lot. When strong enemy with very small amount of HP comes to attack you, it will die before it attacks you.
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted March 31, 2007 03:21 PM |
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Hey Elvin, a few replies back on this thread, you said that b. frenzy + nature's wrath > archery. What about just nature's wrath compared to archery? I've always taken archery for my hunters without thinking but if nature's wrath actually works out to be better, I'll take it instead (I mean for just damage, not considering ultimate).
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Halm
Hired Hero
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posted March 31, 2007 03:26 PM |
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Edited by Halm at 15:40, 31 Mar 2007.
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Quote:
I fully agree, but the thing was about creeping on shooters in last scenario of inferno campaign  . Then it has such use.
Ok I shoould have been more accurate:
Shooter includes the druids.
Already forgot these stacks or not played the mission?
And not to mention the pitlords...
I might get a bit of topic. But the effect that the Ai often attacks gated troops is that they are usually weaker than the orginal stack that means their relation won't be so devastating, while the AI thinks it destroys the same amount of your dmg potential.
But this doesn't include magic! (And other non relatiabile attacks)
This why druids might still cast lighting on your orginal stacks particulary, when they are blocked by gated troops. 
But tatcis is just one example for a usefull skills which have to be skipped for the ultimate.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 31, 2007 04:06 PM |
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Quote:
Hey Elvin, a few replies back on this thread, you said that b. frenzy + nature's wrath > archery. What about just nature's wrath compared to archery? I've always taken archery for my hunters without thinking but if nature's wrath actually works out to be better, I'll take it instead (I mean for just damage, not considering ultimate).
You can always get all 3, I just would rather get nature's wrath first. First of all it requires b frenzy so the m. hunter's damage becomes from 5-8->6-10. With archery it would be 6-9.6
For a regular hunter it is 4-7->5-9 and 4.8-8.4 with archery.
Not much of a difference but archery is only for ranged.
I admit that I am surprised they were so close, somehow I was sure it was more...
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted March 31, 2007 04:19 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 16:50, 31 Mar 2007.
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Necromanser...
Attack --->>> Battle Frenzy --->>> Cold Steel --->>> Power of Speed
Attack is one of the most needed skills for the necromanser, as in other posts I'll say it again:
The problem in Necropolis are not the creatures, is not the necromancy, is it the hero. The Necromancer beceme more skilled in spellpower and defence, the problem is that his creatures needs more attack and the hero more mana...
The Best creatures in your army are the Vampires and the Liches so if you want to improve, their attack this is really good choice.
Battle Frenzy is good choice too:
1. Principle the necros army is big, only the dwarfs army is bigger, the Battle Frenzy is really good choice, after 2.1 the skeletons are not to many but they are still many, the zombies and the ghost become many too,
Imagine 500 ghosts + Battle Frenzy and the Incorporeal ability! This means + 500 demage!
2. The Vampires ability - Life drain (Life drained is half the damage inflicted.), so another good point!
Cold Stell is not bad ability too, you really need it. Basicly it's not too strong, but it gives you more additional demage, and you need more demage 
However, the undeads need attack skill, so pick up attack!
The creatures in Necropolis are weak in speed and initiative (best initiative - Vampire - 11  ). Power of Seed is good for necro (but imp it is not obligatory skill). The chance for light spell in the necro town is very small, and the initiative is needed for your creatures, and Power of Seed is one of the ways to improve it. (Well haste is the way but you'll get it via the skill)
Dark Magic --->>> Corrupted Soil
Dark Magic is the skill whit highest probability fot Necropolis - 15%, but you need it, however in Dark Magics are "game-brackers" like the crazy Puppet Master, or Frenzy, good spells like Confusion and Vulnerability, the initiative problem can be fixed if you decrease the
initiative of your enemies with Slow (40% on Expert level).
Other point is that many heroes in the race are specialists in dark magics or you just need it, and yes The Daks magic are probably the best magic shool
Corrupted Soil is good to, it's better when your hero is on high level, but if you have it, so you have high level
Logistics --->>> Pathfinding --->>> Death Marsh --->>> Silent Stalker
Logistics is one of the universal skills in the game, it's good for every type of hero! On expert level it will gives you +30% movement speed (to the hero ).
The priorities of the skills are many, and they are of importance for all hero types.
For the Necromanser it is especially needed after 2.1. Why? You have Dark Energy (DE) - in definite amount per week, for example you have 120 DE and it is day 7 of the week! On the map are some Berserkers, you have enough DE to rise vampires of them, and you need some more troops, you do not need to keep your DE for later, couse you'll lose it (120) after the day, but you can not reach the Berserkers... sorry you need Logistics
Logistics mean (for Necropolis) - more movement speed, more battles, more troops.
Pathfinding is somehow useless in my opinion, sometimes you can need it to see what await you in the dark 
Death Marsh is cool ability (+4 speed during siege), your necro troops need more speed, and this can help a lot! The Vampires can easy reach the shootes inside the town walls and the ghost can support them. The Liches can flee easy too
Silent Stalker can help when you hesitate to attack or not neutrals, and will hide facts for you army (The enemy will see only your strongest creatures), this can help in some situations.
Elightenments --->>> Scholar --->>> Lord of The Undead --->>> Dark Revelation
Elightenments is another universal skill, it'll help you to reach faster the Ultimate skill + 15% EX are always welcome and the +1 bonus to one of the primary stats too Elightenments is good choice.
Scholar, is not very good ability, but Lord of The Undead is needed, +5% bonus to the necromacy, You must know it ,guys, when you play necro:
1. Your necromancy skill is everything!
2. Weak in necromancy necromancer can't beat anything!
3. It is always good to improve your necromancy skill!
+ 1 knowledge bonus is good too (this will give you + 10 mana )
Pick up Dark Revelation when the other abilities for the level are not good
Mark of the Necromancer, Eternal Servitute, Banshee Howl
Mark of the Necromancer is one of the best abilities in the game, especially after 2.1 , it can help a lot (not only "can" it will) in finall battles, in neutrale battles, everywhere! (Well it will not in the building ) you'll start with only 10 mana and Rise Dead spell, with Mark of the Necromancer you can keep many mana:
1. You be able to cast more spells in a battle with small amount of mana.
2. You'll restore amount of mana for next battles.
This can fix the mana problem
Eternal Servitute, can help you to do not lose any troops per battle, the survival % for your creatures will get higher. It really can help you to resurrect 1-2 vampires, 1 lich 3-4 ghosts...
Banshee Howl is good in the game start, but not in late game, in late game Slow on expert level will become better. But - 1 Luck to the enemy is good priority for you. Use it in early game.
Howl of Terror
Banshee Howl will reduce the enemy morele by 6! Brutal! This will make
your enemy's army useless , even if he has Leadership! (The ability
is useless against other Undead creatures and Minotaurs/Minotaur Guards).
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 31, 2007 04:27 PM |
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Quote:
Ok I shoould have been more accurate:
Shooter includes the druids.
Already forgot these stacks or not played the mission?
And not to mention the pitlords...
You reach pitlords easily with you natural speed . And since I got boot's, I also was able to reach druids ... I really had no problems in that mission without having tactics. But yes, I would much more like it being an requirement instead of frenzy .
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 31, 2007 05:16 PM |
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The ultimates are kinda messed up: they are either too powerful to introduce them in a normal game (absolute protection/luck) or too weak to mean much (unstoppable charge) or they destroy the "good" skill progression (like elemental rage which kills destructive+sorcery, duh..).. or everything in the same time.
To make ultimates useful, let's see..
1. Fair ultimates for everyone (or those which need rare skills should be a bit more powerful, but not too much)
2. Ultimate skill doesn't need some ridiculous skills you'd never take otherwise (corrupted soil?)
3. It does not force you to take skills that don't benefit your faction (like unstoppable charge's requirements)
4. You can reach it eventually in a MP game, in practice, not in dreams only.
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Halm
Hired Hero
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posted March 31, 2007 05:18 PM |
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Edited by Halm at 17:19, 31 Mar 2007.
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He he, right if I start combat, look where the stacks stand, load and place the creatures to the right locations tactic is not that important...
But this was 1.0. Since then Nival made it already a little easier to get Urgashs Call.
Anyway this lead me to the point already mentioned.
Why do we have to walk a certain path to reach the ultimate ability?
A bit more freedom wouldn't hurt. For example.
Why can't battle frenzy OR tactic lead to the Urgash Call?
Archery OR battle frenzy to natures wrath?
Maybe Nival will consider it in a patch.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 31, 2007 05:30 PM |
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Or perhaps it should be based on skills only, not abilities. And a certain hero LVL. Say, rage of elements available after level 22, if you have picked destructive, sorcery, enlightment and luck
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 31, 2007 05:31 PM |
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Edited by executor at 18:44, 31 Mar 2007.
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BTW, I have examined the ultis from another point of view:
How many heroes(non-campaign) can take them?(I did not care for neither Unstoppable Charge nor Rage of the Elements - they are not worth taking)
1.Academy(Arcane Omniscience):
Faiz - in addition we can have mass curses(has dark magic)
Galib - has luck, a good skill but does not shine on wizard
Havez - with war machines it'll be easier to creep, but they aren't good on 30+ lvl, so not good here as well.
Jhora - she can take the ulti still having her 5th skill unbound - light magic or logistics recommended.
Nathir - offers us destructive magic as fifth skill - mediocre choice for 30+ lvl.
Razzak - offers defense - a viable chice for 30+ lvl. Shame he can't take power of endurance.
6/8 heroes can get Arcane Omniscience, but only one of them(Jhora) has an unbound 5th skill then. As well, she is quickest to get ulti(28th level). Razzak, and maybe Faiz and Galib are ok with their skills.
2.Fortress(Absolute Protection):
Brand - has an unbound skill, but having fine rune from the start means one level more of gaining XP.
Ebba - offers attack as 5th skill - good since it ensures bears reaching enemy outright. Good for heading for ulti. We must skip light magic, though.
Erling - he offers sorcery - I would not reccomend this one, as sorcery isn't graet on dwarves.
Helmar - we get light magis in additon - very good here, the 'bound' skill is very viable, especially with his specialty.
Inga - enlightment as 5th. I am not convinced to this lady, but she can go.
Karli - luck as 5th shines on dwarves, especially against magic-oriented opponents.
6/8 heroes can get Absolute Protection, but none of them has a shorcut by having some requirements from the beginning. Only one has an unbound skill - Brand. Also Karli, Ebba, and especially Helmar seem viable for reaching Absolute Protection.
3.Inferno(Urgash's Call):
Alastor - generally a not good hero, save for creeping on casters. Sorcery does not shine on inferno, either.
Deleb - she is deadly and war machines help in eary game, especialy with her special. But on 30+ lvl I would rather not recommend her.
Grawl - destructive is worse as war machines, but better than sorcery. Certainly not a good choice.
Grok - now that's what I understand - free 5th skill with 'shortcut', and useful specialty. Highly recommended.
Jezebeth - similar to alastor.
Marbas - defense is decent on inferno, and his special shines against magic. Good one.
Again, 6/8 heroes can take Urgash's Call, one of them with free 5th skill - Grok. Also Marbas, and possibly Deleb are viable.
4.Necropolis(Howl of Terror):
Note that it requires 3 levels less than other mentioned ultis.
Deirde - shortened way, free 5th skill, good special - keep on going!
Kaspar - war machines with specialty can be ok, he may go.
Lucretia - well sorcery is not it, but boneward may help against magic. However, nothing special.
Naadir - not a straightforward way to ulti, but summoning magic is a viable addition to requirements.
Orson - defense is decent one, but zombies? And vitality was godly on this faction when skellies ruled, now it's not that good.
Raven - destructive is a mediocre addition(not in guild and level 30+), but it can be since necros don't lack spellpower.
Vladimir - similar to Naadir.
Here, 7/8 heroes can take Howl of Terror. Deirde leads here, but also Vladimir and Naadir are very good for reaching ulti. Even Orson, Raven and Kaspar are ok. Here our choice is broadest.
5.Sylvan(Nature's Luck)
Dirael - summoning magic won't help you much, while preventing you from taking light magic. Not a good choice.
Talanar - here we have leadership - no magic at all?? Not a very good good option. However, leadership is better than summoning.
Vinrael - mr. brainy has great specialty, but he as well can't have light magic. He is better that previously mentioned two, however. Do not forget he can have ulti as fast as if he had 'shortcut', due to special .
Ylthin - unicorn lady offers us light magic, and we are very happy about it . She is best choice if you wish to have ulti on sylvan.
Only 4/8 heroes, and none of them has a free slot. The choice here is between Vinrael and Ylthin only - faster ulti or better skill set. Decision is yours.
As we see ultis are not only hard to get, but they limit our skill choice(or even leave no choice ) as well, so only a couple of heroes are woth playing if you want to get the ultimate ability. Necropolis is at best position here - most possible heroes and quickest ulti. On the other side are sylvan, with only a couple of heores who can take ulti, and even less that are good for doing it.
Hope this occures relevant, despite ultis low usefulness in gameplay, especially online.
Quote:
Say, rage of elements available after level 22, if you have picked destructive, sorcery, enlightment and luck
Don't you want to much, doomforge ?
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 31, 2007 05:35 PM |
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Well, I wouldn't complain on double elemental damage for my implosions. Now it can add like 800 dam to implosion (the endgame implosion), so another 800 would be welcome
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 31, 2007 05:59 PM |
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Quote:
Or perhaps it should be based on skills only, not abilities. And a certain hero LVL. Say, rage of elements available after level 22, if you have picked destructive, sorcery, enlightment and luck
hehe that would be a good one
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted March 31, 2007 07:41 PM |
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I think mainly s far as ultimates go...
They are not worth it, none of them really. I have used urgoshs call in one multi player game, and that was definately amazing. But the time it took to develope and the fear that my opponent would come hopping through the garrison while I was still developing or hoping for that one last level! (and the right skill pick) was not worth the outcome.
I can remember one game I had all the prerequisites for howl of terror (necro ultimate) which is quite literally GG as soon as you have cast it. But since it became apparent at a later level that I was infact on my way to this skill the game NEVER offered me Banshees Howl again, so I couldn't get it, I did however end up with a very poorly built necropolis hero. If I got the howl would I have won? Most definately.. game not offering me banshees meant I lost. And this is not such a rare and difficult thing to see.
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted April 01, 2007 12:49 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Hey Elvin, a few replies back on this thread, you said that b. frenzy + nature's wrath > archery. What about just nature's wrath compared to archery? I've always taken archery for my hunters without thinking but if nature's wrath actually works out to be better, I'll take it instead (I mean for just damage, not considering ultimate).
You can always get all 3, I just would rather get nature's wrath first. First of all it requires b frenzy so the m. hunter's damage becomes from 5-8->6-10. With archery it would be 6-9.6
For a regular hunter it is 4-7->5-9 and 4.8-8.4 with archery.
Not much of a difference but archery is only for ranged.
I admit that I am surprised they were so close, somehow I was sure it was more...
Thanks. I was mainly wondering for Findan because he starts with Tactics so I can only have archery OR nature's wrath, not both.
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pomo
Famous Hero
The lone peasant
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posted April 01, 2007 09:03 AM |
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Personally I would simply prefer for the ultimates to be disabled for multiplayer - particularly in the state they are in at the moment. Like Doomforge says easy access to them would currently mean a lot of stupid imbalances. If they were to be made easier to access - which I think could add an interesting aspect to gameplay - I would like them to be a) made much weaker in some cases (elven luck/absolute protection stand out here) and b) balanced between factions.
In response to the OP... I don't think they're worth it at the moment.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 01, 2007 07:34 PM |
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Well, so far only DoomForge has really adressed the problem of how the system with Ultimate Abilities could be change to make a more versatile, less demanding system that would have a wider application.
In my oppinion, it's a very complex because the current system has so many different properties that could need adjusting. To name some:
- Current ultimates are of very different power.
- Current requirements are very different between the factions. Some require only good or easily accessible skills, while others require skills that are useless for that particular faction (or blocks out essential skills!) or are difficult to get.
- Current requirements are very high (i.e. only important in late game).
The problem is, that making the abilities all come out equeally strong is quite difficult - their strength might depend on the game situation, and also depend a lot on the racial skills, which are themselves very difficult to compare. And I wanted to try to come up with something more ground breaking than just changing the skills, because the current system has a lot of downsides with putting restrictions on the game etc.
I did not manage to come up with a complete solution, but I did get an idea which I think is interesting. It could probably need a lot of adjustments, but let me give the basics here:
- What about, instead of having one Ultimate Ability for each class, which requires some specific skill combinations, there is a set of "universal" Ultimate Abilities available for all classes?
Let me explain a bit in detail how this could work:
Basically, a combination of 4 skills with related abilities would offer you a choice of an "ultimate" ability depending on which 4 skills you had. In principle, any 4 skills could trigger a unique ability, but given that there are 12 different skills, that would mean a total of 495 different Ultimate Abilities, which would probably be a bit over the top.
Therefore, only some specific combinations would trigger UA's. This might seem like a reproduction of the "fixed development path", but let's ignore that for a moment. I tried to analyze the matter to come up with a suitible set of combinations, and I found a system which I will not go into detail with here, I will just note that I chose these combinations so that all skills are used an equal number of times (with the exception of the 4 magic schools, note on that below).
I did not develop very specific ability descriptions - these are just some basic ideas. Note that these relate very much to the current ultimate abilities, but with adjustments so that they can be used by all classes. The following are examples of skill combinations and UA's - names are just "beta":
Absolute Morale: Increases max Morale to +10 and provides all units +5 Morale.
Favored class: Knight
Required skills: Attack, War Machines, Logistics, Leadership.
Absolute Luck: Increases max Luck to +10 and provides all units +5 Luck.
Favored class: Ranger
Required skills: Defence, War Machines, Logistics, Luck.
Absolute Destruction: Destructive spells do 50 % more damage.
Favored class: Warlock
Required skills: Attack, Luck, Sorcery, Destructive Magic.
Absolute Misfortune: All enemy units suffer -5 Luck.
Favored class: Runemage
Required skills: Defence, Leadership, Enlightenment, Light Magic.
Absolute Summoning: All Summoning effects use only half Initiative (spells or abilities), and Summoned creatures get +0.5 ATB.
Favored class: Demon Lord
Required skills: Attack, War Machines, Sorcery, Summoning Magic.
Absolute Despair: All enemy units suffer -5 Morale.
Favored class: Necromancer
Required skills: Defence, Logistics, Enlightenment, Dark Magic.
Absolute Sorcery: Not yet determined - maybe increases effect of Sorcery to 50 %?
Favored class: None yet.
Required skills: Luck, Sorcery, Destructive Magic, Summoning Magic.
Absolute Knowledge: Makes hero able to learn all spells and increases level of mastery by one.
Favored class: Wizard
Required skills: Leadership, Enlightenment, Light Magic, Dark Magic.
Notice that these 8 suggestions correspond closely to the present 7 racial skills, and then a suggestion for an 8th one (Absolute Sorcery). All skills are available to all classes, but notice that each skill will favour the properties and the skill availability of a certain class. Thus, Absolute Destruction will have a combination and a bonus that makes this an attractive choice for the Warlock, but he could equally well chose to aim for Absolute Sorcery or even Absolute Knowledge (though the latter will be hard for him to obtain).
Skill effects are just suggestions. Absolute Knowledge effect furthermore would go very well with the suggested change for Magic Insight (increases mastery by one level) that I suggested in the other thread, thus a Hero with both would be able to learn all spells and use them at Advanced level, even those he did not have skill in. Close to Arcane Omniscience, but not quite the same.
Also note that skill combinations are not random. For instance, Sorcery goes with either Destructive or Summoning magic, whereas Enlgihtenment goes with Light or Dark Magic. That is because a hero with Light and/or Dark Magic will have less benefit from Sorcery, because of the mass perks.
There are still a LOT of open ends. For instance, I have not decided whether the perks should be fixed or open for own selection (i.e. 3 fixed perks, or 3 perks chosen freely, or no perks required!?). If you think it could be fun to look further into this, give me some comments.
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 01, 2007 07:43 PM |
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I love the ideas, Alci
"Absolute Destruction" seem fun, assuming it'd be multiplicative, not additive. You know, another 2k damage for 4k dam implosion and so on ^_^
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted April 01, 2007 08:08 PM |
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Edited by Destro23 at 20:19, 01 Apr 2007.
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The problem with having these ultimate abilities come with your run of the mill hero skills
IE Knights ultimate from war machines, offense, defense, logs, leader? mmm ok.. but what knight won't get it? it won't be so ultimate now it will just be nessecary.
The reason they are so far out of reach is because they are not something every hero should be employing on every game. I don't find them to be valuable, because of the skill requirments, and also cause of the very high level you need to achieve them.
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On another note, please change the demons lords *summoning magic" magic requirement if we go with these as a demonlord will never ever take summoning magic.
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