|
| Thread: The Ultimate Skills Discussion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
posted April 01, 2007 08:09 PM |
|
|
Now thats more balanced , although i think you forgot to add instant gating effect to summoning didn't you? Inferno doesn't use summoning magic anyway.
And yeah id love this kind of Dungeon ultimate
Quote:
IE Knights ultimate from war machines, offense, defense, logs, leader? mmm ok.. but what knight won't get it? it won't be so ultimate now it will just be nessecary.
But yeah, that is true.
I'd suggest this kind of solution to ultimate.
There can be seperate way for pursuing ultimate. Like now when you lvl u can choose from 4 skills. There could be second option added where you can choose from 2 skills. Every second lvl you choose one basic skill (upgrade or basic) and every second lvl you choose one of two perks for example ( and perhaps you can get a fixed skill every 3 lvls) and if you choose ultimate path you will be offered ultimate at lvl 20 no matter what.
In this way i think it would be quite balanced because you will either get the build as you want (as it is now) or you will end up with more random build but with ultimate. And still you will have to hurry because you may be attacked before lvl 20 when you still dont have it. That sounds fair for me.
____________
|
|
GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
|
posted April 01, 2007 08:13 PM |
|
|
Great idea, alc! 
Anyway, I would pick a bit more original names.
And mabey change the abilities to something more creative.
Almost all of them are direct effect on the units' luck/morale, etc.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 01, 2007 08:25 PM |
|
|
ADAM will pwn you for such heresy, GenieLord! 
Anyways..
Let's not go too far: We don't need ultimate-spamming spree. Although a SLIGHT tune-up for the requirements would be nice, and a bit of balance between the ultimates would be also welcome.
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 01, 2007 09:23 PM |
|
|
anyway, back to topic, imho some possible ultimate are worth to pursue, but the player must be skilled enough not to be defeated before get those powerful skills, because some ultimate like dungeon ultimate have crazy requirements.
all ultimate skills are equally powerful (except knight ultimate), the only problem is survivability before getting those powerful skills.
based on my experience few possible ultimate skill are worth to pursue, ultimate that i've tried in mp game are urgash call (grok) and rage of elements (vayshan), looks like those two are the only heroes that can quickly get ultimate skill. Rage of elements are awesome, but it's to dependant on randomness of warlock's creatures and target creatures, but urgash call is awesome if you have big inferno army, it's the same as rage of element, the big army is a must, so the main problem is to save our army till lv 28, in another words, to survive until lv 28. Based on my exp, i think urgash call is much better than rage, don't know why, of course absolute luck is awesome, but that ultimate is one of the impossible to get.
imho urgash call, absolute luck, and absolute protection are top ultimates.
speaking of those three ultimates, i think absolute luck cannot pierce absolute protection, because the luck attack become normal, but urgash call can pierce it, if two identic stack (ex: real imps and gated imps) attacks are lucky attack, then it will be the same as one sylvan stack (ex: sprites) attack with luck attack even the absolute protection nullify it.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 01, 2007 10:08 PM |
|
|
|
Rage of elements is not very good: sure it's not bad either, but it forces you to take warmachines, which suck for magic-based warlocks horribly. And might warlocks are pushovers, so it won't help them either.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted April 01, 2007 11:12 PM |
|
|
Actually, I think my post is very much on-topic. I think if there should be a point in having the ultimates, it's necessary to think beyond the frames of the current system to come up with a new model that will make them relevant in the game, not just odd choices you can work towards as a cureosity.
And GL: About the names, they were just "beta" suggestions like I said, one could come up with real names in due time, as well as polishing off the effects.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
TemjinGold
Known Hero
|
|
posted April 01, 2007 11:20 PM |
|
|
I like your ideas a lot but would you allow players to get TWO ultimates then? What I mean is, as it's set up, a warlock could conceivably have Absolute Destruction AND Absolute Sorcery, since three of their requirements overlap.
I do agree that the ultimates shouldn't require an ideal set of skills as otherwise there would just be one build for each race, making the game more boring. At the same time, it shouldn't require a completely useless build either as no one would want it. An ultimate should be powerful and require a skill set with medium usefulness so that it is viable and the ability makes that "average" skill set something you'd want to go for, giving an advantage to someone with the ultimate over the best build without but not too large an advantage.
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 01, 2007 11:29 PM |
|
|
Ok i think ill have to repeat.
I think destro got the point here . This solution would lead to a situation where every player would have ultimate just because if all those required skill will be good/playable there will be no point in not going after ultimate. Everybody will be getting it.
It doesn't have to be a bad thing though. I even think it could be even nice if you introduce many ultimates and make symbolize more like class choices (like heroes 4 classes)
____________
|
|
dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 12:55 AM |
|
|
Alcibiades' suggestions
As I see it, the idea of the ultimate abilities is to have one extremely powerful ability related to a hero class. Not that I dislike your ideas, but they just don't fit with the current way of the ultimates being dependent on the race, which I like btw.
Sure, you could replace the current ultimates with those and change the system as you proposed, but if you did that it would be a pity imo. The current ones fit well to the hero classes and I would like to see them implemented in a way so that one could actually use them in some games.
A suggestion for the current system: Set 5 skills for each class, of which 4 need to be taken to Expert level with 3 abilities in order to get the ultimate. Abilities should not be determined in a certain way.
Alci, I wouln't call your ideas ultimates anymore, rather another level of special skills or something like that. Well actually the name doesn't really matter so I'll stop talking nonsense right now... 
btw do you mind if I call you Alci? Well, alc is shorter, but when I say alc I usually mean alcohol Hey, what about Al?
____________
open source for an open mind
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 09:39 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I like your ideas a lot but would you allow players to get TWO ultimates then? What I mean is, as it's set up, a warlock could conceivably have Absolute Destruction AND Absolute Sorcery, since three of their requirements overlap.
Eh yes, that is obviously something that one should take care of if one wanted to go forward with the idea - so that either there is only one skill allowed, or each skill only has to requirements in common with any other skill.
Quote:
I do agree that the ultimates shouldn't require an ideal set of skills as otherwise there would just be one build for each race, making the game more boring. At the same time, it shouldn't require a completely useless build either as no one would want it. An ultimate should be powerful and require a skill set with medium usefulness so that it is viable and the ability makes that "average" skill set something you'd want to go for, giving an advantage to someone with the ultimate over the best build without but not too large an advantage.
I actually agree very much with all you say here, but I had a thought yesterday: I'm actually not sure that it's such a good idea that the ultimates are so powerfull as they are. Let me give an example: I once played Wizard and aimed for Arcane Omniscience. Now I use a mod that cuts back one of the skills, so it should actually be obtainable around level 24 or something. I think I was level 23 when the enemy hero arrived and trampled me. I had all the skill requirements for the skill, I just needed one level up to actually GET the skill. *lol* Of course, I was totally pawned.
Not, why is this story relevant? Maybe it was just one glitch from my side, because I'm not the greatest player (and I'm not!), but the skill combination I was left with was very bad. If I had obtained Arcane Omniscience, I might very well have won the battle, but without it - impossible. And that brings me to the real point of this post:
With the current system with extremely powerfull Ultimate Abilities, you make a build that's mediocre, maybe even bad, until you get the ability. In essence, in the end, it's one level-up that's the difference between winning and losing.
That is for me not optimal for gameplay. I think it's more fun for the player, and better for the game, if you always aim for a good build. Also, most players have by now learned that that playing style is necessary for winning, meaning that most experienced players now completely ignore the Ultimate Abilities. And then they have failed their purpose in the game - because what's their worth, if they never get in play?
For that reason, I think it would be better to tone down the Ultimates a bit, even more than in my previous post. Simply make them synergy abilities between 3 or 4 skills, instead of something ultra-powerful. I like the idea of several Ultimates being available for the classes, because that won't favor very special builds. So that the Ultimate will offer you a nice extra skill that matches your skill combination, but won't be something super-extra-extremely powerfull.
Quote:
As I see it, the idea of the ultimate abilities is to have one extremely powerful ability related to a hero class. Not that I dislike your ideas, but they just don't fit with the current way of the ultimates being dependent on the race, which I like btw.
Sure, you could replace the current ultimates with those and change the system as you proposed, but if you did that it would be a pity imo. The current ones fit well to the hero classes and I would like to see them implemented in a way so that one could actually use them in some games.
Yes, like you will see I'm of the opposite oppinion, as argued above. That's purely a matter of taste, for sure - if you favor your approach, the current system is perfectly sound!
Quote:
A suggestion for the current system: Set 5 skills for each class, of which 4 need to be taken to Expert level with 3 abilities in order to get the ultimate. Abilities should not be determined in a certain way.
Yes, that would be a nice way to keep the current system and make it more accessible.
Quote:
Alci, I wouln't call your ideas ultimates anymore, rather another level of special skills or something like that. Well actually the name doesn't really matter so I'll stop talking nonsense right now...
btw do you mind if I call you Alci? Well, alc is shorter, but when I say alc I usually mean alcohol Hey, what about Al?
Alc or Alci is fine. You can also go for "sir". And yes, I agree that what I'm aiming towards is to make the Ultimates no longer being Ultimate. 
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Sanyu
Known Hero
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 10:38 AM |
|
|
Inferno's ultimate Urgash Call is totally a joke. It sucks to the core and it puts your hero in a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none situation. The prerequisites are mostly useless. The skill is useless too. Ironically, the skill does not serve its purpose but may in fact even counter it. Its purpose- to let you gain an upper hand during siege attacks. The truth- it hastens the process your gated units die. While you can attempt to block shooters, any decent player will make a formation such that the shooters are surrounded totally by their own creatures. Sure, this may be a chance for you to use your pit lord's meteor shower but one of the skill's ultimate purpose is gone. Next, by gating in your units so early, you can nearly be sure that most of the opponent's troops have yet to attack and this gives them a chance to finish off your gated troops earlier in the battle to prevent disastrous consequences later. Worse still, should the enemy do what I first said, then the shooters can finish off them very fast.
Just dont bother Urgash Call at all cost. It hampers your hero's development, waste precious experience and cannot do much unless when you are creeping. (by the time you get it, late-game)
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 12:35 PM |
|
|
Yeah, it hasten the gating unit to die, but at least they waste their precious turn to kill the fake one, then the real one strike with full force.
As for the prerequisites, all of them is okay.
But, why the developer didn't make urgash call also make the gating unit can move its turn after they come to battlefield, instead of only instant arrival.
|
|
nocaplato
Adventuring Hero
Lover of Ancient Philosophy
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 12:45 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Inferno's ultimate Urgash Call is totally a joke. It sucks to the core and it puts your hero in a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none situation. The prerequisites are mostly useless.
Gotta disagree, Attack, Luck and Logistics are a great skill set for a might based hero. Sure, Dark magic may clip out a more might oriented pick, but given their low spell power, it's a solid magic pick for Demon Lords. A lot of the secondary picks are pretty solid too, Dead Man's Curse, Weakening Strike, Teleport Assault... all fantastic bonuses for a might based hero. Granted there are a few that don't mesh well, but the total set is pretty good.
Compare the skill set to Warlocks, who have to pick War Machines (lame) and, as a magic based class, don't even have a magic skill in the set... talk about weak.
Plus, Urgash's call is a sweet ability. Gated creatures are not just limited to use in seiges at all. Your extra units can function as screens and roadblocks set to protect your own formations and clutter the battlefield. Plus, it's not easy for an opponent to protect all their ranged units... most factions have more than one ranged they have to protect, and a lot of the ranged types are large creatures, which are incredibly hard to defend.
Quote:
Next, by gating in your units so early, you can nearly be sure that most of the opponent's troops have yet to attack and this gives them a chance to finish off your gated troops earlier in the battle to prevent disastrous consequences later.
I don't see this being any more dangerous than a regular gating. Normally gated creatures have lag time between their summoning and their action anyway, which allows your opponent a chance to respond to the arrival of those new stacks. The point isn't to preserve your gated creatures, but to tear holes in your enemies defenses. Gated creatures are shock troops, meant to be used and abused in a combat so your regular army is preserved for when the lines actually do engage.
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 01:02 PM |
|
|
true, i agree with you nocaplato
urgash call instant arrival not only make the gated units arrive instantly, the main point of urgash call is to make the gated unit take action far more quickly, in late game, 1 turn is too precious to waste, that's why i said they take their action far more quickly, another point of urgash call also to preserve your army, and to create confusion to your enemy, if they choose to attack the original, the fake one also has the strenght of the original, if they choose to attack the fake one, the main one is also a serious problem, without urgash call, your enemy is not too confused to choose which unit he/she will attack, because two points: 1. The gated unit still not arrive in first turn, 2. Even if they've arrive, they still need 1 more turn to act.
So, with urgash call, the gated unit act 1 turn more quckly, which is super very crucial in very late game battle, beside that, the enemy has to think more carefully because of the gated unit instantly arrive (and if swarming gate occur, they're as strong as the original, and can be stronger with some boost), one wrong act of your enemy will make he/she defeated very easily, and one wrong act of yours still can be tolerated, another great function is instant block to fast and dangerous enemy creature, ex: emerald dragon, they have great init and great speed to make use easily one of their most feared abilities, the acid breath attack, inferno def is crap, and two of your units get blasted with those breath attack, you'll certainly lose this battle, and if that breath attack is lucky attack, you become instant goner. But, with urgash call, you can block them by gating your nightmare, rushing to the front vs sylvan in late game is bad choice (especially if you have urgash call), they have high def, and you become easy target to master hunter and elder druid, and if they attack with lucky atack, better beg for mercy.
The prerequisites of urgash call is one of the best Ultimate Skill's requirements, look at Rage of Elements, it's far more crazy.
|
|
EliteKill
Promising
The Starless
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 02:21 PM |
|
|
I was thinking, and than I had strange idea. My idea is suposed to make the requirements worth it, with the introduction of the Divine Skills (new name name).
Divine skills are skills that are better than ultimates. The requirements for each Mega Skill and its uses is described below:
Haven: Battle Strike
Requirements: Unstopable Charge, Ultimate Counterstrike
Use: Retaliration Strike works as a Mass Spell. Retaliration Strike has a 50% chance of inflicting double damage (Retaliration Strike damagex6 (Unstopable Charge x Battle Strike). "Casting" Retaliration Strike uses only 50% initiative.
Sylvan: Avenger's Luck
Requirements: Nature's Luck, Ultimate Avenger
Uses: Up to 1 faction can be chosen on the Favorite Enemies List. All attacks against a Favorite Enemy will be a critical hit.
Academy: Infinite Knowledge
Requirements: Arcane Omniscience, Ultimate Artificier
Uses: Hero can learn all spells. Each creature with a mini-artifact recives "Caster" speciality with 1 random spell and enough mana to cast it once.
Dungeon: Elements of Destruction
Requirements: Rage of the Elements, Ultimate Irresistable Magic
Uses: All normal immunities apply to hero's monsters (i.e. Black Dragon is Immune to all spells, even with Iresistable Magic). Elemental Damage from Elemental Chains will be either 50% of normal Spell Damage or 200% of normal Spell Damage (75% for 50% damage, 25% for 200% damage).
Necropolis: Cry of the Undead
Requirements: Howl of Terror, Ultimate Necromancery
Uses: Howl of Terror will use only 50% Initiative. Dark Energy costs are halved.
Inferno: Portal of Chaos
Requirements: Urgash's Call, Ultimate Gating
Uses: Every creature in Demon Lord's army can gate. When an Inferno creature is gated, the number of summoned creatures is 100% of the original stack and can act immidiately. Creatures attacking gated Infero creatures have a 25% to miss.
Fortress: Counter Rune
Requirements: Absolute Protection, Ultimate Runelore
Uses: Runes have a chance to also have the opposing effect on a random enemy creature (i.e. Rune of Charge will double the selected creature's speed, and it might half the speed on an enemy creature). Dwarven creatures have a chance to block (like missing a spectre) an attack and retalirate with double the damage.
What do you think?
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 02:56 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I was thinking, and than I had strange idea. My idea is suposed to make the requirements worth it, with the introduction of the Mega Skills (kame name).
Mega skills are skills that are better than ultimates. The requirements for each Mega Skill and its uses is described below:
Haven: Battle Strike
Requirements: Unstopable Charge, Ultimate Counterstrike
Use: Retaliration Strike works as a Mass Spell. Retaliration Strike has a 50% chance of inflicting double damage (Retaliration Strike damagex6 (Unstopable Charge x Battle Strike)
Sylvan: Avenger's Luck
Requirements: Nature's Luck, Ultimate Avenger
Uses: Up to 1 faction can be chosen on the Favorite Enemies List. All attacks against a Favorite Enemy will be a critical hit.
Academy: Infinite Knowledge
Requirements: Arcane Omniscience, Ultimate Artificier
Uses: Hero can learn all spells. Each creature with a mini-artifact recives "Caster" speciality with 1 random spell and enough mana to cast it once.
Dungeon: Elements of Destruction
Requirements: Rage of the Elements, Ultimate Irresistable Magic
Uses: All normal immunities apply to hero's monsters (i.e. Black Dragon is Immune to all spells, even with Iresistable Magic). Elemental Damage from Elemental Chains will be either 50% of normal Spell Damage or 200% of normal Spell Damage (75% for 50% damage, 25% for 200% damage).
Necropolis: Cry of the Undead
Requirements: Howl of Terror, Ultimate Necromancery
Uses: Howl of Terror will use only 50% Initiative. Dark Energy costs are halved.
Inferno: Portal of Chaos
Requirements: Urgash's Call, Ultimate Gating
Uses: Every creature in Demon Lord's army can gate. Inferno creatures can gate twice per battle.
Fortress: Counter Rune
Requirements: Absolute Protection, Ultimate Runelore
Uses: Runes have a chance to also have the opposing effect on a random enemy creature (i.e. Rune of Charge will double the selected creature's speed, and it might half the speed on an enemy creature). Dwarven creatures have a chance to block (like missing a spectre) an attack and retalirate with double the damage.
What do you think?
i must say that is a very good idea
but the name should changes, give another name instead of mega skill.
i must say that Portal of Chaos is the weakest, it's useless to gate twice if the original ones is dead, instead of gate twice, make it like gated units are double of the % of gating skill, or gated units can act directly after they arrive in battlefield and the gating units cost 0% initiative
Batte Strike seems weak, but it's potential to destroy lv 7 creatures is awesome, so it's okay.
The rest is powerful.
|
|
EliteKill
Promising
The Starless
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 03:04 PM |
|
|
I changed the name to Divine Skills.
Portal of Chaos now gates 100% of the original stack (if the gating stack is from Inferno). Gated stacks can act immidiately and attacking creatures have a 25% chance of missing the gated Inferno stack.
Battle Strike also makes it that "casting" Retaliration Strike uses only 50% initiative.
Better?
|
|
TemjinGold
Known Hero
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 03:08 PM |
|
|
|
The idea is neat. The Warlock one looks nice on paper until you remember what skills were needed to get the Ultimate in the first place. On the other hand, the Sylvan one is too strong. Every hit deals quad damage? I like the Mass effect for the Knight. They should've made Unstoppable Charge do that instead of 3X damage.
|
|
EliteKill
Promising
The Starless
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 03:16 PM |
|
|
Quote:
The idea is neat. The Warlock one looks nice on paper until you remember what skills were needed to get the Ultimate in the first place. On the other hand, the Sylvan one is too strong. Every hit deals quad damage? I like the Mass effect for the Knight. They should've made Unstoppable Charge do that instead of 3X damage.
For the Warlock imagine this: You have an enemy creature with an air element. You cast Implosion on it at expert level with 30 spellpower (1240 damage). Now, it gets lucky (2480 damage). Elemental Chains work: if 50% more, that would be 3720 damage, if 200% more, it would be 7740. Not powerful enough for you?
For Sylvan, remember that it's only for the selected faction.
EDIT: For the Warlock, it's actually stronger:
By that level, you would probably cast Empowered Impolosion (Expert and 30 spellpower) which will deal 1860 damage. It gets lucky and the damage is now 3720. Elemental damage with 50% is 1860 and together it is 5580. With 200%, it is 11160  . BUT, to get the Divine Skill, you also get Rage of the Elements! That means double damage! so with 50% it is 7440 and with 200% it is 18600 (). I don't know about you, but 18k damage is VERY powerful. Perhaps too powerful...
|
|
feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 02, 2007 03:46 PM |
|
|
18k dmg powerful? naaahhhh 
____________
|
| |
|
|
