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| Thread: Primary skill anlysis: Nobility | |
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 16, 2001 07:41 PM |
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Edited By: Djive on 23 Jan 2002
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Primary skill anlysis: Nobility
I'm taking the last non-magic skill today as well.
Nobility family of skills: Nobility, Estates, Mining, Diplomacy
A skill that gives you access to more creatures and more resources, as well as opportunities to get creatures to join you.
Nobility: Increases the population in the town where the Hero is.
I'm wondering how this will work. If you have to be in a town to make the population increase, then it makes the skill fairly useless, and turns the hero into a garrison commander. I hope they do some serious thinking on this one. I'd much prefer a lower global bonus than that you have to be in a town to earn a bonus. An interesting ability when combined with the Stronghold town which already has a breeding pit to enhance production.
I hope this skill doesn't work the same way as the "Legion" parts. I absolutely hate having to go to a certain town the first day of a week just to get the bonus.  And come to think about it, I usually forget to do it too
Added new information:
Basic Nobility: +10% creature production in towns where the hero is governer.
Advanced - Grand master increases this with 10% each.
(I saw this somewhere but can't remember where... Too much new information these last days....)
Estates: Earns you extra gold.
Modified information:
Grand master: 500 Gold per day plus 10% per hero level. (A level 10 Hero will give 1000 Gold/day.)
Diplomacy: Allows you to negotiate with creatures.
In contradiction to Nobility this skill would require you to leave the castle to be properly used.
Mining: Provides additional resources.
Grand master: 1 wood and 1 ore every day, plus 1 of each precious resource every second day.
Added: My guess is that this skill will be similar to Estates. Giving resource worth 500 Gold/day (1w+1o+1 precious resource), and a % in addition to that. This percentage could either be related to the skill or it could perhaps be related to flagged mines.
I'm fetching most of the information from the Heroes 4 Beta: Thread. Here I've made a change and it's based on the assumption that the relative values of resources have not changed., and that Mining would give about the same benefit as Estates. In Heroes 3, 350 Gold is valued to about the same as 1 precious resource, or at least the hero specials are valued that way. In two days Grand master Estates give 2000 Gold. This is about the same value as 6 precious resources (350*6 = 2100 Gold). The value of 2w +2o and 1 precious resource is just 1050 Gold or half that. However, if you get 2w+2o+g+c+m+s then the value of that equals 2100 Gold.
It doesn't have to be like this. Mining could also confer a bonus on the production of your Mines, and you could get the extra value that way.
Conclusion: On overall useful skill providing you with extra resources which could win you the game. It's difficult to rate this skill in importance. The slot will earn you income and return value, but wouldn't it be better to improve some other skill? Or will you perhaps only develope the skill fully and then Garrison the Hero?
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted October 16, 2001 10:24 PM |
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Estates and Mining are economic skills, but the other two are huge tactical advantages - especially when you consider that not all heroes will be able to pick up Order/Charm. Nobility, especially if it is a small global bonus, will be a huge edge in the all-important creature race, and Diplomacy will allow you to pick up wandering troops (and enemy troops without heroes!), enhancing your forces even more. This will be a great skill to have on a garrison hero and nearly as good on the traveling heroes. It and Scouting are the only non-combat skills, and they will both prove useful.
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted October 19, 2001 01:05 PM |
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Is it still possible to have monster stacks join you for free if you're powerful enough?
I remember games in the past where I had to save because I was worried about how many casualties I would take fighting a stack of 40 Titans (well, my army IS much stronger but still..) but then they ended up offering to join me out of greater glory.. Now that kind of stuff has potential for unbalancing the game. I've forgotten what was required to get greater glory joins (it's not related to diplomacy is it?) but just imagine getting a powerful stack for free.. in my case, 40 Titans is a very expensive stack, which I got absolutely free (and didn't have to spend time getting them either). That's a lot of money thrown my way.
What I'd like to see in the diplomacy system.. if you haven't got the resources to buy all the units, you should be able to choose how many you can buy. One added bonus is that you don't have to pay any resources other than gold (a Titan normally costing 5000+2G only costs 5000, saving you 2 gems).
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 09, 2001 08:50 PM |
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I guess both Charm and Diplomacy may get creatures to join. For Diplomacy I believe you would normally need to overpower them. For Charm it's anybody's guess, but it doesn't belong to the Nobility skill.
Greater glory joins is related to Diplomacy in heroes 3, the chance increases to get a free join and you also get a certain chance that they'll offer to join for money in some cases. In heroes 2 they're not related. Diplomacy gives you a chance to pay for the creatures instead of fighting.
At least I believe so... Anyone who has seen the rules for this?
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted November 09, 2001 10:45 PM |
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I'm pretty sure only diplomacy can cause the entire stack to join without a fight. Charm is more something that goes off right before the battle and takes control of a few enemy monsters. Or at least that's how I understand it.
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted November 26, 2001 01:30 AM |
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Quote:
Nobility: Increases the population in the town where the Hero is.
I'm wondering how this will work. If you have to be in a town to make the population increase, then it makes the skill fairly useless, and turns the hero into a garrison commander. I hope they do some serious thinking on this one. I'd much prefer a lower global bonus than that you have to be in a town to earn a bonus. An interesting ability when combined with the Stronghold town which already has a breeding pit to enhance production.
One interesting usage of Nobility skill.
On the latest screens, I saw hero that was specialized in Nobility (GM) and Tactics (Master). Now this was great combination I would say. The ideal garrison commander that can win the game for you. First, he's always in the town and can serve as a great protector, because the creatures under his command recieve large offense/defense bonus, thanks to his tactics expertise. He produces more creatures. SO the regular creatures that are produced in the town can be freely send to the main hero, out there on the battlefield, and the extra creatures he get can be used for town defending and slow building of second great army. And also with his resource and gold production, you can buy this extra creatures.
This looks to me as a great tactic. But I can't and won't say that this will be the "winning" tactic, because I hope that there won't be such tactic in HOMM4. It's only an optional tactic, that if well executed can give chance.
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 26, 2001 04:14 PM |
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There's a few things more...
Nobility implies Diplomacy. Wouldn't you rather wander the area to get creatures to join you, than to have the hero cooped up in a castle?
To get GM Nobility and Master Tactics, you've likely spent 20 levels of developement or so. Thus, you're likely garrisoning one of your best heroes who has something like 700-800 hp. This may work if you have a loss condition of lose town or so, but sounds risky otherwise.
There's also the matter according to one to the russian interviews that you'll be limited to the amount of heroes you may hero per week. So grooming one of your first heroes to be a garrison commander looks risky.
The reason I don't want the hero to be present is that it will then work like the Legions part in Heroes 3, and I know how often I remembered to be in a town by day 7 in a week. (I couldn't be bothered, because I couldn't afford to buy all the creatures anyway.)
When it comes to Mining, I wonder if the skill will actually produce resources or if it will exhaust the mines you have quicker. I hope it will be producing resources.
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted November 26, 2001 10:28 PM |
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Where is that screenshot?
Quote:
On the latest screens, I saw hero that was specialized in Nobility (GM) and Tactics (Master).
On that screen, it might say what the advanced class is for Nobility/Tactics. There's been quite a bit of speculation about advanced classes around here, and I (for one) would love to know.
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 26, 2001 10:38 PM |
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It's the Genie that leads the troop Melody is in in the russian preview with 21 screenshots. If you look at the adventure map screen shot, you'll see that she's GM Nobility and Master Tactics by the icons by her portrait.
She also appears in the combat screen shot, so you can see her battle-gear.
I'm afrid we don't have her class-name. It doesn't appear on the shots.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted November 27, 2001 04:28 AM |
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Quote:
There's a few things more...
Nobility implies Diplomacy. Wouldn't you rather wander the area to get creatures to join you, than to have the hero cooped up in a castle?
To get GM Nobility and Master Tactics, you've likely spent 20 levels of developement or so. Thus, you're likely garrisoning one of your best heroes who has something like 700-800 hp. This may work if you have a loss condition of lose town or so, but sounds risky otherwise.
There's also the matter according to one to the russian interviews that you'll be limited to the amount of heroes you may hero per week. So grooming one of your first heroes to be a garrison commander looks risky.
I understand your point of view here. But I think that in this complexity will be the might and cahrm of HOMM4. Strategies, options. Options to play the game which way you want. Both tactics that we discuss about can work.
And don't forget two things. First, even on lower levels than GM of nobility you'll gro up more creatures but of lower levels of course. And second, that the creatures now come in the town any day.
So this can also be great conquering tactic. You counquer new neutral town, and you raise faster second army with such Noble hero.
I'll say again. Options, options and options. There the beauty is in HOMM4 
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted January 23, 2002 10:33 PM |
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It's entirely possible you won't need to sit home in your castle in order to make nobility work.
If you notice in one of the screen shots it says that nobility gives a bonus to the town that considers your hero it's governor, not to the town the hero is in at the moment. So I would suspect every town can have one hero assigned as the leader of it, but that hero doesn't have to stay in town.
As always, I could be wrong though.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted January 23, 2002 11:37 PM |
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Yes. I agree with this. On one screenshot they also showed Rissa (a Lady) in position on the town interface that I haven't seen being used before.
So hopefully, governers can rule from the adventure map.
I guess that to become governer the hero must visit the town at one point.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted January 23, 2002 11:43 PM |
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Quote:
An interesting ability(Nobility) when combined with the Stronghold town which already has a breeding pit to enhance production.
Can't wait to see this baby work ..you see,i'm into stronghold already
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Linkki
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 24, 2002 12:17 AM |
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Yesh indeedy, stronghold forever! I just wish by me (I'm an atheist that might will be equally strong as magic this time around.
Also, I agree with Svetac. It's the complexity that's the beauty of it. The best thing we might come across would be that theres plenty of very powerful tactics, so that the "best" players wouldn't need to lean to one single type of gameplay in order to win.
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Myste
Adventuring Hero
Reality Impaired
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posted January 24, 2002 12:57 AM |
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From what ive heard its going to be heaps more complex so i advise beginners to start with heroes 3 and move on to heroes 4.
I dont know why but i think tactics is the worst skill there is. Does anyone like it??
I think that the Nobility skill, if the hero with the skill is out of the castle and if there is more than one hero with the skill, it only counts for the hero with the highest nobility skill.
<Myste>
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'The Eyes He Posses Can Watch The World'
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted January 24, 2002 02:54 AM |
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Actualy I think tactics will be one of the best skills there is. Giving bonuses to your entire army is always very strong, because they are usualy the ones who are doing the real fighting. Of course we will have to see it in action, but I am much more confident that this skill will be good then I am about alot of other ones.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted January 24, 2002 09:57 AM |
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Edited By: Djive on 14 Feb 2002
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Quote:
From what ive heard its going to be heaps more complex so i advise beginners to start with heroes 3 and move on to heroes 4.
I'd recommend the opposite. As the slogans about Heroes IV says. "It's all new."
Better to start with Heroes 4 directly and avoid confusion because skills works in different ways.
Tactics would be one of my first choices. It affects the surrounding units, whereas combat only affects the hero.
Quote:
I think that the Nobility skill, if the hero with the skill is out of the castle and if there is more than one hero with the skill, it only counts for the hero with the highest nobility skill.
I don't think so. The Nobility skill mentions that you have to be appointed "governer" in a city for the skill to work for a hero in that city. This sort of implies that appointing somebody governer is something which is done manually by the player. And since it is connected to an individual city, the hero probably has to be in the city for the appointment to be possible.
ADDED:
Also "neutral monsters" is suspicious. I thought the skill would work on monsters belonging to other players as long as there was no hero in the army.
Prerequisites for skills:
Basic Nobility for Advanced Estates, Mining and Diplomacy
Advanced Nobility for Master Estates, Mining and Diplomacy
Expert Nobility for Grandmaster Estates, Mining and Diplomacy
Basic Estates and Mining for Expert Nobility.
Advanced Estates and Mining for Master Nobility
Expert Estates and Mining for Grandmaster Nobility
(Hero doesn't need to be in the town for the skill to work. My guess is however that you need to have the hero visit the town in order to appoint the Hero to governor.)
Basic Nobility
+10% to town growth in towns where the Hero is governor.
Advanced Nobility
+25% to town growth in towns where the Hero is governor.
Expert Nobility
+45% to town growth in towns where the Hero is governor.
Master Nobility
+70% to town growth in towns where the Hero is governor.
Grandmaster Nobility
+100% to town growth in towns where the Hero is governor.
****
Estates:
Basic: +100gp, +10% per level
Advanced +200gp, +10% per level
Expert +300gp, +10% per level
Master +400gp, +10% per level
Grandmaster +500gp, +10% per level
****
Mining
Basic +1 ore and +1 wood every 5 days, +10% per level
Advanced +2 ore,+2 wood, + 2 random precious resources every 5 days, +10% per level
Expert +2 ore,+2 wood, +3 random precious resources every 5 days, +10% per level
Master +2 ore, +2wood, +4 random precious resources every 5 days, +10% per level
Grandmaster +2 ore,+2 wood, +5 random precious resources every 5 days, +10% per level
****
Diplomacy works only when you overpower the monsters.
The creatures that don't join attack you(!)
Seems to be some uncertaintaies wheter or not Diplomacy will affect purchase price and surrendering cost, and if the percentage is the same.
Basic Diplomacy
Allows Hero to negotiate with neutral monsters. If successful the hero can hire 30% of the monsters in the neutral army (only in the case when the hero attacks). Experience points of the monsters cannot be higher than 120+10% per level. The price is 80% of the usual purchase price. Surrender cost is 80% of the usual.
Advanced Diplomacy
Allows Hero to negotiate with neutral monsters. If successful the hero can hire 40% of the monsters in the neutral army (only in the case when the hero attacks). Experience points of the monsters cannot be higher than 240+10% per level. The price is 70% of the usual purchase price. Surrender cost is 70% of the usual.
Expert Diplomacy
Allows Hero to negotiate with neutral monsters. If successful the hero can hire 50% of the monsters in the neutral army (only in the case when the hero attacks). Experience points of the monsters cannot be higher than 360+10% per level. The price is 60% of the usual purchase price. Surrender cost is 60% of the usual.
Master Diplomacy
Allows Hero to negotiate with neutral monsters. If successful the hero can hire 60% of the monsters in the neutral army (only in the case when the hero attacks). Experience points of the monsters cannot be higher than 480+10% per level. The price is 55% of the usual purchase price. Surrender cost is 55% of the usual.
Grandmaster Diplomacy
Allows Hero to negotiate with neutral monsters. If successful the hero can hire 70% of the monsters in the neutral army (only in the case when the hero attacks). Experience points of the monsters cannot be higher than 600+10% per level. The price is 50% of the usual purchase price. Surrender cost is 50% of the usual.
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Slava14
Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
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posted February 14, 2002 07:18 AM |
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Hmmm... you have some things wrong with Diplo
The numbers and percents are right but... a few details aren't:
1)The neutrals will agree to be hired only when the hero's army is much more powerful that the monsters group.
2)Not mentioned at your list: The creatures that weren't bought by you attack you.
3)The last percents (80% at Basic) aren't connected to the cost of the monsters, but how many percents from the regular surrender price do you need to pay when surrendering, just like in HoMM 4.
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I'm always happy to help.. unless I'm helping myself.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted February 14, 2002 09:15 AM |
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Quote:
The numbers and percents are right but... a few details aren't:
1)The neutrals will agree to be hired only when the hero's army is much more powerful that the monsters group.
2)Not mentioned at your list: The creatures that weren't bought by you attack you.
3)The last percents (80% at Basic) aren't connected to the cost of the monsters, but how many percents from the regular surrender price do you need to pay when surrendering, just like in HoMM 4.
I took most of the info from Pyromancer's thread but not everything was spelled out.
1. I thought this was missing myself.
2. Pyromancer's thread did indicate this, sort of. Do we have any sources that verifies this? (or is just the translations of the russian site?) It sounds a bit strange that say 5 Archangels could join a Necro army with Archdevils and then fight 5 other Archangels.
3. Make sense. Diplomacy has had both the surrender bonus and the reduced price bonus in the past.
I'll correct the thread this evening.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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pyromancer
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 14, 2002 10:35 AM |
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hmm
i am a little confused about the surrendering cost and the price of the monsters. from one source it seems that it lowers the cost to surrender and the price to buy the monsters is "only a portion of the real price". another guy from a bulgarian magazine tells me that the numbers are the same for surendering and purchase (i.e. 70% of the price to surrender and 70% of the price to buy them)
and another addition: the charm skill also lowers the price for surrendering:
basic - 90%
adv - 80%
expert - 75%
master - 70%
grandmaster - 65%
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i am almost sure for the information because i have played the last beta version (2-3 times) in the gamers' workshop office but there was only one map only with towns and no battles. i saw some of the descriptions of the skills and they are the same as these in the russian site. or i think it was the last version because today i see a little deference in the devil's stat. the devil has 33att and 33def and i saw him with 32att and 34def.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
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