Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: To Kill, or not to Kill - That's the Question!
Thread: To Kill, or not to Kill - That's the Question! This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted April 01, 2007 06:27 PM

To Kill, or not to Kill - That's the Question!

One of the great things playing the Necromancers are the possibilities the Shrine of the Netherworld gives you, transforming other units into undead creatures of the same tier, making it possible to gather huge stacks. Here comes my analysis on what creatures it is feasible to transform to the ranks of the undead.

There are of course two ways of getting creatures; either by buying them from captured castles and getting them for free as neutrals. When buying for the purpose of transformation, all creatures will off course be of the non-upgraded version, as they anyway will become the non-upgraded equal tier when transformed. When having the choice of buying upgraded non-undead creatures for keeping them, that is also a part of the analysis, since a few of them actually can contribute in the ranks of the undead.

When getting free troops, they will in 50% of the cases be upgraded, and can’t really be compared with prices. Buying creatures diplomatically for transforming is a rare case as this is very expensive.

Some of the creatures will be too expensive to transform, while others are a bargain. When using caravans to buy creatures in the beginning of the week, this should be strongly considered with the transformation in mind.

No 7th level creature is worth the transformation as they all are better and more expensive than the bone/spectral dragon. Therefore these are not included in the analysis. Renegades and Neutrals are also not included as they are not recruitable from castles.


Haven:  
Only Archers should be considered kept untransformed. Haven creatures are good fodder for the shrine of the Netherworld.

Peasants: +3 gold (+18%): Really a no-brainer. Although you loose the 1g/day, it’s a clear upgrade when you convert them into skeleton archers (+50% gold). Conscripts should go as well.

Archers: +5g (+11%): Archers are clearly better than zombs – better on all stats except HP (40% of the zombies), but can you get many enough of them to contribute a clear force? In that case you shouldn’t transform and rather upgrade to marksmen. The big morale penalty shouldn’t make this a priority unless you have a hero from the light side (Dougal will do).

Footmen: -10g (-9%): Here you save money from the transform. Ghosts are better in all aspects compared to the footman (no bash, but incorporeal and flyer). Squires get a descent HP upgrade, but not enough to beat the spectre (which now do more dmg and can drain casters)

Griffins: +20g (+8%) Strange how these creatures can be turned into vampires , they are more expensive  than the vamps and have better stats all over. The no retaliation has about the same value as no-retaliation, but life-drain is very helpful with high numbers and damage.
Unless you save Imperials for an Armageddon strategy, I would still turn these winged fellows into the ranks of the undead; but the priority of buying should be low.

Priest: -50g (-7%): Truly a no-brainer. Liches are more expensive, and much better off totally with their death cloud. Inquisitor has only better HP, but cause much less damage.

Cavaliers: -150g (-11%): Here you save good money and wights have pretty much equal stats. Of course the jousting bonus is the big loss, but I would prefer a huge stack of wraiths compared to two divided stacks, unless you have hired Klaus or so.



Academy:
Two of the creatures are not transformable, but golems are practically undead.

Gremlins: +5g (+29%): A pretty increase in price (unless they come from outside dwellings), still they are not effective at all in small numbers. If you rely heavy on ammo-carts/ballistae the master-upgrade might be considered, but else I go for skeleton archers in huge numbers.
They should however be a low priority when buying.

Gargoyles: These can’t be transformed. Why they have morale is another question, as they then doesn’t become suitable for undead ranks. Should you have Raven with Armageddon however, the obsidians become very valuable.

Golems: These can also not be transformed, but have neutral morale like the undead, and can therefore join without any penalty. The big minus is of course that they can’t be raised.
Upgrade to steel and if you have a Wizard make an artifact for them.

Mages: +10g (+4%): A very offensive caster vs. the vampire. A big stack of archmages can be devastating, but so can the vampire lords also, with even better resurrection in larger numbers. Some (archmages could be kept for casting righteous might, but unless available in bigger numbers (at least two academies), I would transform.

Djinns: -220g (-31%): A huge price discount. The Liches are much better, so this transform is clearly worth it. Some Djinn (sultans) might be kept for spell casting only.

Rakasha Ranis: Same price and Power rating. Pretty much equal; Rakashas better on HP, but Wights better off on the rest. I’ll say go for the transform.



Sylvan:
Neither of the low-mid level creatures here are not feasible to transform; this makes sylvan the worst town after Dungeon for transformation.  Unicorns and Treants though are good choices. If keeping any sylvans in the army, a big morale penalty of -3 will occur though


Pixies: +18g (+205%!!) Double price and loss of half of the Power rate. These creatures could be better not to buy, or sacrificing themselves during battle. Sprites could even be used to cleanse your troops.

Blade Dancers: +20g (+44%). Again there is no really point of making these versatile fighters (esp. the War dancers) into slow zombies. As with the Pixies/Sprites, they are better off in the hands of another hero or to be sacrificed in the heat of battle.

Hunters: +25g (+25%) No way. The hunters could be used much more effective for creeping or as temporary troops among the undead  if the morale could be heightened.

Druids: +70g (+29%) Even these guys shouldn’t be transformed lightly. Both price and power rating are higher than the vampires. Use them for creeping or sacrifice them in battle.

Unicorns: Same price (less PR). Finally, the first sylvan troop to consider transforming. How you can make a horse into an undead spell caster is another question . Unless you are in desperate need of Magic resistance or the blind-ability, and able to boost your morale, I would rather have a huge stack of (arch)Liches.

Treants: -200g (-14%) Cheaper, less PR makes these walking trees better off as wights/wraiths in the hands of the undead. A good buy and transform.


Dungeon:
Dungeon troops are generally expensive and the least suitable faction for transformation. The morale penalty will not be so big either. Hydras are the best choice.

Scouts: +43g (+353%)!! No way! The price and PR are tripled compared to their skeleton counterparts. Either don’t buy, or upgrade to assassins.

Blood Maidens: +80 g( +277%): Again, this is not much to think of. Furies can deal immense damage and can easily sacrifice themselves in the ranks of the necromancer, taking lots of enemies with them or attracting hostile spells.

Minotaurs: +40g (+40%): Not these creatures either are a good choice for transform. First of all, don’t buy them unless you have plenty of cash, but if a neutral stack joins you or so, you can rather use them as meat shields. Remember – they have always positive morale and are therefore useful to the necromancer.

Dark Raiders: +60g (+25%): As with the rest of the dungeon troops, I’ll rather sacrifice these in battle than transforming them. Not a priority to be bought unless you have a secondary hero. The Grims can cause lots of damage with their charge and bites.  

Hydras: Same price, less PR. Finally we make it to the first descent dungeon choice. Hydras are slow and not half as versatile as Liches. Necromancers don’t even have teleport assault. Transform! (A strange transformation though)

Shadow Witches: Same price, almost same PR: If you have room, morale boost and archery (Unicorn bow), these casters may rather be kept unspoiled. The spells might also be useful, especially the Matriarchs Confusion. If you have tight room in your army, then a transformation wouldn’t be bad either.


Inferno:
Although Inferno troops won’t struggle that much with morale under the Necromancer, most of the troops are rather worth transforming, if not sending them off to a demon lord that can use them for gating.

Imps: +8g (+27%) :You might consider rather having some familiars, stealing well needed mana to your necromancer instead of making another pile to the archer stack. A few of them though won’t make the big difference though.

Horned Demons: -5g (-11%): Cheaper and less PR than a zombie, these slow tanks are better of in the rank among the undead.

Hell hounds: +10g (+10%): Fast and furious, even the Cerberus won’t contribute too much by themselves, and will be affected be morale as well. The incorporeal trait makes up for the loss of attack and speed/iniative, so a transform would be ok. Not a priority though.

Succubi: Same price (less PR): You should have the unicorn bow to bother keeping these temptresses as they are. The mistresses have the chain shot that will screw your own troops in many cases, so they are better off as vampires.

Hell Chargers: -220g (-31%): Horse to undead spell caster (like the unicorns) is a weird but economical transformation. Unless you are in big need of some fast interceptors, these creatures should rather become shooters in the necros ranks. Make it a priority.

Pit Fiends: -250g (-14%): Again, cheaper. The Fireballs/Meteor showers might prove useful during sieges, but are very slow, and during creeping/open battle, inferior to the wights/wraiths.


Fortress:
Again, a high morale penalty will occur. A big variation of good and bad choices for transformation. Brawlers make great vampires.

Defenders: +7g (+41%): Not a good transform. Shouldn’t be bought from castles. Can be used as meat shields instead of transforming. Shieldguards make excellent defenders for Skeleton archers and Liches. The morale though will suck, making them not too active during battle.

Spear wielders: Same price (better PR): Converting a shooter to a lame meat shield sounds like a bad idea, but there is little difference in price. The huge morale penalty (-3) and the need of an ammo cart will perhaps make them better off as zombies after all. Give these guys a low priority when buying troops.

Bear Riders: +30g (+30%): If it wasn’t for the morale penalty I would have kept them. Give them low priority when buying though. The Blackbear riders though have the paw strike which makes them valuable and could if the morale allows it prove valuable in battle, sacrificing themselves.

Brawlers: -80g (-33%): A truly no-brainer. Brawlers are the worst 4th level creature in the game. Making them vampires is not only economically rewarding, but finally gives them some dignity in battle . Berserkers should also go. These should be given a high priority when buying.

Fire Priest: -230 g (-33%): Finally a logic Lich candidate. The priests are much cheaper and should be transformed unless your Necro has specialized in fire magic and have good morale (mark of the fire causes double damage) .Patriarchs should be considered before transforming into Liches (even though they have lower PR)

Thanes: -100 g (-7%): With the high morale penalty, and cheaper prices, I wouldn’t think too much of not transforming these guys into wights. Warlords could perhaps be kept with another hero or if the morale allows it.


Thats all folks Now, lets hear your comments



____________
Darkeye

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 01, 2007 06:50 PM

Hi Darkeye, interesting topic, I don't remember anybody bringing this up before. I do have a question which was not answered from the explanation in the beginning before I go through the whole thing: When you do this analysis, are you considering it from the perspective of a player having Necropolis as his main faction, or from other conquering a Necropolis during the game? Because in the former case, is it not irrelevant whether the Necropolis units are in fact better or worse than the original units; when you have a Necropolis army, will it not always be better to swell the ranks of this army than to include something new (especially considering the morale penalties of mixing with undead)? Or do you think that is over-simplifying things?
____________
What will happen now?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted April 01, 2007 07:01 PM

The analysis is meant for playing the necro-faction. It is mostly about how to spend your money wisely when having to make priorities, but also for deciding to keep certain troops like a stacks of blood maidens/fuires instead of making them zombies. For instance, if I were short on cash, I wouldn't bother buying low/mid sylvan troops for neither transformation or keeping them at all.
When not playing necro from the start, I would normally not start converting without a very good reason.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted April 01, 2007 07:06 PM

If I would play necro i would transform all that I've bought.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 01, 2007 07:07 PM

me too

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted April 01, 2007 07:16 PM
Edited by Darkeye at 19:19, 01 Apr 2007.

But if you have to decide what to buy, then these price differences makes sense. In a tight game you might not have enough cash to just buy everything. Devils to Bone Dragons are a bad buy. With enough money, you normally are on you way winning anyway. And what about having a second hero keeping the other good troops for creeping?
Zombies are useless except for the matter of survival, so would you really rather have 250 of them compared to marksmen or furies?

A good example comes from the scenario I play now, where you play Naadir and he goes rescuing Gliraen from a prison, having lots of sylvan troops. It's much better letting these stay with him, than sending them right to the transformation. 230 war dancers are much better off unspoiled!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 01, 2007 07:21 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 19:22, 01 Apr 2007.

The point is that even if its less efficient u still dont have enought room for any other units except your own. If you skip any tier its almost always better to split archliches to be more effective than including anything else, unless its a powerstack but this doesn't happen too often in MP i guess.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 01, 2007 07:26 PM

the creatures you can get ourside dwellings come in marginal numbers: they don't have much impact on the army anyway. It's better not to waste space in your army. And you want space with necro, don't you? Since many creatures are rised in both pre- and upgraded form, you need a few slots not to waste, say, 7 liches due to lack of space.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted April 01, 2007 07:26 PM

Quote:
Devils to Bone Dragons are a bad buy


such a strange transform


no matter how it costs, i would turn all to undead. at least for necro line-up in army

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted April 01, 2007 08:08 PM

Well, what if you have one necro castle and play against 4 dungeon ones. Will it be feasible to transform all dungeon when you can aquire more of them? Assassins are way better than skelton archers, not no mention Furies to Zombies. You are all talking like there is no cash limit in the game, which there normally is.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted April 01, 2007 08:16 PM

in this case your table is not needed

but if there are no 4 same castles in the map - first option. transform all.

ok, I am not talking about it anymore; fred likes chocolate and mary lard with chocolate

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted April 01, 2007 08:35 PM

So if you had 20 Archangels, you'll rather transform them into bone dragons?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 01, 2007 08:38 PM

getting 20 archangels is not possible with necro. How? So there is no such dillema. And for lower tiers, converting is good.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted April 01, 2007 08:59 PM

Well, in many scenarios/campaigns you get free troop, but 20 Archangels was perhaps exaggerating a bit. Do you convert everything in for example the scenarios with Markal and Isabel?

But, seriously, you can't normally buy ALL of the troops available at once. Therefore you might have to make priorities. Buying brawlers for vampires is for instance a priority before blood maidens to zombies. This was much of my point.

Also, what is wrong having a non-necro creeping for you with other troops? My 20 druid elders did much more for me alive at Gilraen, than converting them immediatly.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
executor
executor


Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
posted April 01, 2007 09:07 PM
Edited by executor at 22:25, 03 Apr 2007.

Necro should mill everything they can buy.
Sad this too often means 'upgrading' - peasants, demons, brawlers, priests and rune priests as clearest examples. I think that on rich multi-town maps this can make necro godly.(EVERY single town is a necropolis, considering creatures)
It could be nerfed a bit.
Or maybe transforming table similar to the new necromancy would be more reasonable - no 'horse to lich' transforming .

Edit: My 100th post .

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted April 01, 2007 09:43 PM

Yes, it can become too powerful. There's a reason why bone dragons are clearly the worst 7th level creature in the game.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 01, 2007 10:21 PM

All the "necromancy" benefits are balanced by no morale and no luck (ok, 2% chance, but it usually contributes to "no luck" anyway), no buffs and  low ATT of the necromancer.. or at least they should be. Nival, of course, failed on the attempt to balance things out: necropolis, considered somewhat a might city, fails miserably against any powerful might city, and can't do a damn thing to stop warlocks and wizards in their destructive/summoning madness. It can do well against inferno, though - and against dwarves, surprisingly. Dwarves are rather slow, while frenzy can't be cleansed. Go figure.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted April 02, 2007 12:20 AM

This analysis really didn't turn out the way I thought.
I just played through "Refugee" where I achieved level 31 with Naadir in the single scenario. I transformed pretty much all since I could afford it, but it was too easy anyway. Playing on heroic and getting a full sylvan hero early on with 70 hunters, 20 druid elders, 2 emeralds and around 230 wardancers - whats the point?? And of course the computer played as a vegetable as usual I have to start playing multiplayer now.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Istari
Istari


Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
posted April 02, 2007 03:52 PM

I think your analysis is good.  Not suprising, several people didn't get what you were saying.  A lot of it is common sense, but it's still good to have numbers on the most economical transformations.  I would also give priority to the type of necro army I was building.  In castles where it is more economical to transorm lvl 2 than lvl 1, even with limited money I would choose lvl 1 because I typically don't even recruit zombies, but I always have skeleton archers.  Good information, especially for the new *underrated* necropolis.
____________
Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted April 02, 2007 04:32 PM

Thanks Istari, finally a positive feedback
I agree that most creatures are transformable, but priority should be given to cost and the usefulness of the necro creature as you say.
Zombies are simply not worth colloecting, so there goes lvl 2, while level 5 and 4 are especially good as they give liches and vampire. Level 6 is often economical good as wights are more expensive on average. When it comes to bone dragons, In games with many towns, I stopped even buying the dragon graveyard as it is too expensive; I rather transform other creatures as I take over castles.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0543 seconds