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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Nature...
Thread: Nature... This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted April 15, 2007 01:04 AM



Look everyone! This is what pollution looks like! This is what it does when it catches hold of our world! It's eating us alive and very soon now it will kill us. Neglect and destruction only make it work faster!
____________
How exactly is luck a skill?

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted April 15, 2007 01:07 AM
Edited by Consis at 01:08, 15 Apr 2007.

LoL, How Could I Resist?

The lasting legacy of the once famous Heroes Community heroine named Cat. Before she left us, she gave us this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDpFxo4cu_E

Lord_Woock had it in his signature for a goo dlong time after she finally left. I'm surprised no one else has used it since then. My wife kids still ask me to replay it for them even today.

eh .... this might be construed as nature right? Surely it must be!
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted April 15, 2007 01:20 AM

I remember that video

Daystar, that's just a forest fire right?  A forest fire is completely natural and necessary for the survival of the forest.  Yea, man starts some forest fires, but the vast majority are caused naturally, usually by lightning.


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 15, 2007 01:32 AM

Our planet can be an unimaginatively beautiful place. It gives us life but also so much more that a good deal of people have discarded and cannot appreciate because they have been cut off from nature from some generations.

Nature...It is a system in harmony, something that you could not say about something man-made. But much as we may love it, we cannot go back to it...We are used to the technological comforts and city life even if we could live at the countryside for some time.

The problem isn't the regular people like us but those who have the capacity to really affect it and they are usually powerful people that can buy their way through.
Being in an economic school I have learnt of some developments during the last decades, especially the 'dashboard of sustainability' and some conferences whose target was that the use of nature and technological development would also take into account the future generations. Greedy guys who couldn't care less about what world they'll leave behind them can no longer have their way as measures have since been taken.

However among the ideas for the materialization of the plan I heard some disturbing things.
One was that pollution was treated like an economic parameter, the right to abuse it a product to be bought...
Another would be a tax according to the amount of waste released into the environment which may seem ok as an idea but.
Economists were given the task of evaluating the 'fair' amount of tax. Fair? As in the rich guys would complain about being taxed unfairly for destroying something that is not theirs? I cannot understand this logic all too well. The point is to prevent pollution, not to be fair here.
Another idea was to give companies the right of releasing a fixed amount of pollutants so that they could continue their job as long as they did not exceed the limit. The funny part comes when a company is about to resign, what would happen if it was about to close? Yes you guessed it, the right to pollute can be sold to another company so as not to ease the environment of pollutants-it was used to this amount anyway right?

That's what I hate, people thinking only with a cost-benefit ratio...
They cannot understand that pushing nature more than they should can create more costs for them in the future.
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted April 15, 2007 03:26 AM

Humans = nature LOL
It's up to us to take care of our planet & the nature that surrounds it.
We can either destroy it or save it.

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Dreaming of a Better World

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted April 15, 2007 04:20 AM

Quote:
I remember that video

Daystar, that's just a forest fire right?  A forest fire is completely natural and necessary for the survival of the forest.  Yea, man starts some forest fires, but the vast majority are caused naturally, usually by lightning.




fine, you win.  but I couldn't find a good oil spill or factories belching out smog.
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How exactly is luck a skill?

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Colonel_here
Colonel_here


Adventuring Hero
Descendant of Ghengis Khan
posted April 15, 2007 05:47 AM

About Economics and pollution.
Well it is true that the solutions proposed are all based on cost-benefit idea. However so far it was found that monetary incentives do work well with people and companies. So implementing taxes one is adding costs to production process creating an incentive for people to find the way to produce things that pollute less and thus gain a competitive advantage. This is more of solution that would harm economy of countries less. Because we can't shut down the polluting industries to stop pollution because that would be a hit on the economy. Some industries we need because there is no alternative to them right now. However giving monetary incentive to find the alternative would help to change those industries.
However the governments must start taking actions and force the companies to pay for the pollution they are causing, whether it is taxes, forceful mergers, fines or permits, etc.

As the species humans did separate from nature. Most of us would not be able to survive in nature, many would find themselves uneasy in the forests and anywhere where the comforts that we created around us are missing.
____________
"The job of saving the lives of those who are sinking is the task of those who are sinking" - Ostap Bender
"Only a fool fights a battle he knows he can not win" - Ghengiz Khan

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted April 15, 2007 08:28 PM

Quote:
Because we can't shut down the polluting industries to stop pollution because that would be a hit on the economy.

Ah, one of the main problems of today.
"All praise the almighty economy, let's build huge nature-raping factories as temples to economy, yeees economy loves us... Hippies want to take away our economy... Our money... Our precioussss..."
People invented economy themselves just so they get rich. Such 'economy' isn't needed at all. Why do we need oil to run our cars? Why do we need nuclear power plants? Great minds have throughout history brought much needed inventions to mankind. However, people on the top tossed away those that wouldn't bring them cash. Take Tesla for example: he devised a way to transport and use electricity and that was accepted because it allows corporate-suits to get cash. He also found ways to get power from storms and lightnings but that wasn't used. He devised plans on how cars would work fueled solely by electricity and not by gasolene, but that was forgotten too. IT DIDN'T MAKE PEOPLE RICH. Not to mention possible research, like the cold fusion. They won't even consider it since it would take a lot of money to research it and it wouldn't be great for their wallets.
ECONOMY IS NOT A GOD. ECONOMY IS NOT ALMIGHTY. It CAN be changed; people just need to sober up and think a little instead of being systematically dumbed-up and brainwashed by propaganda.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted April 15, 2007 09:03 PM

I wish people would go back to the bartering system, where everyone would trade for things.  A person might make a washcloth, and trade it to a person for a plate that they made.  
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How exactly is luck a skill?

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Spectrum
Spectrum


Famous Hero
Plan B
posted April 15, 2007 09:15 PM

Finland:






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Aculias is like the male nipple of HC, TNT being the other one -Baklava

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted April 15, 2007 09:24 PM

Economy can change but it's not as easy as one would think. Take an international brand 'whatever' for instance. To simply do away with it means that there will be a temporary wave of unemployment. Many people around the world depend on some industries and if all these were trying to find employment at the same time it could get messy. Some regions have limited jobs for the taking and it could cause moving populations. A bit farfetched but it is a possibility.

Mind you there are many measures that could help with preserving the environment but you don't need to do something as radical. There can be waste processing or storing, subtle laws from each country according to the actual disturbance, certain penalties for producing more waste within time limits etc.
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Map also hosted on Moddb

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted April 15, 2007 10:09 PM

@Spectrum
Do you know the Monty Python song "Finland"?
Quote:
Take an international brand 'whatever' for instance. To simply do away with it means that there will be a temporary wave of unemployment.

Well isn't it bad enough for people to work in a facility that kills unhuman living things around it?
Quote:
subtle laws

I think laws were subtle enough until now. Too subtle. Nature must be protected more powerfully. As you can see, the 'laws' like taxes can easily be avoided and abused.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf

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Colonel_here
Colonel_here


Adventuring Hero
Descendant of Ghengis Khan
posted April 15, 2007 10:22 PM

The electrical car did die because it was not chosen but there was no huge world wide conspiracy. Henry Ford chose internal combustion engine over electrical because his son-in-law owned the factory that made them.  Because of this fateful decision the electrical engine was abandoned.
However it is coming back as hybrids are being developed. We can't just abandon oil right now. There are huge network externalities.The need to rebuild infrastructure would be huge. Unless the oil prices will get really ridiculous it just won't happen. The government can not set up an infrastructure by itself without car companies giving out the exactly what would the new fuel be for the car. The car companies are all over the place with their ideas, some go with electricity others, alcohol, Honda (I think) is introducing the Hydrogen-Oxygen based car. There are also some ideas about other fuels. The new infrastructure would have to be subsidised heavily because people won't switch in one day and so the new refueling station would be working at a loss for a long time. Plus there are still need to upkeep the old infrastructure because people are not going to just jump from their gasoline run cars into new ones in one day. As gas station owners will start loosing money they would have to be helped by the government to readjust, it is not their fault that government created changes, they just bought a gas station to make a living.
Than there are such facts that since Americans drive to Canada to visit that country sometimes the infrastructure has to be built there too. Mexico would be another country that would also have to build this new infrastructure.
Something in Europe and any other part of the world where the countries are side by side.
This can't be just one country effort many would have to join in. And spendings on the side of the government would be huge. How much taxes are you willing to pay.

Well as for barter economy that has its own inherent problems such as inability to drag all your worldly possessions to a market. what if the butcher is not interested in the pot you made. You ran back home to get something else? What if I am selling a cow and we traded you gave me 10 chickens. Now what I have 4 more cows to sell but I also have 10 chickens running around like crazy. And than forget about international trade, you'll be lucky if regional trade network would function because certain goods do perish.
____________
"The job of saving the lives of those who are sinking is the task of those who are sinking" - Ostap Bender
"Only a fool fights a battle he knows he can not win" - Ghengiz Khan

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted April 15, 2007 10:43 PM

Quote:
The electrical car did die because it was not chosen but there was no huge world wide conspiracy. Henry Ford chose internal combustion engine over electrical because his son-in-law owned the factory that made them.  Because of this fateful decision the electrical engine was abandoned.

Even worse...
About the oil problem:
I'd always pick restructuring infrastructure over attacking weak countries and butchering innocents under the mask of justice just to gain access to oil.
But that is just me of course.

Quote:
Than there are such facts that since Americans drive to Canada to visit that country sometimes the infrastructure has to be built there too. Mexico would be another country that would also have to build this new infrastructure.


What, you actually thought the system would be solely used in USA? "Oh, heck, other countries would need to get it too..."
Geez people you can be really annoyingly arrogant sometimes

Quote:
Something in Europe and any other part of the world where the countries are side by side.

It was meant to be used in the ENTIRE WORLD; don't you get it? Fighting pollution ought to happen on the whole planet.

Now, about "How much taxes are you willing to pay" part, I see you are again tied to economy. First, money is a false human invention and theoretically it is possible to go past it for the sake of the planet and mankind itself. We all became slaves to money. With volunteer work and more generosity from the rich people; and of course higher but not too high taxes; it would technically be possible to make that. It would however take a lot of cash from governments and it would be much harder to lead pointless wars then.

However since a project like that would vastly cripple the world's "economy" I think the priority here should be the problem with starving people in Africa and standard problems in some countries. Only then would it be possible to undergo a trip like that. If we'd adopt more people from those countries we'd just need to feed them; they would give us much more workforce. Of course other people would need to work too.
Nothing can really happen without strong will and determinity to work a lot. And of course a good plan. However even then there would be people who would take advantage of the situation...
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf

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Lord_of_Chaos
Lord_of_Chaos


Known Hero
Chaotic Entity
posted April 15, 2007 11:47 PM

I may be the lord of chaos, but I love nature, in a way, it's very soothing to me. Here are some pics from the country I'm from, Canada!



____________
My artwork Here
Wii friend code: 5851-5127-4914-1820
Brawl friend code: 0173-0991-0556

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Colonel_here
Colonel_here


Adventuring Hero
Descendant of Ghengis Khan
posted April 16, 2007 01:06 AM
Edited by Colonel_here at 06:29, 16 Apr 2007.

To Baklava
If you can solely through volunteer effort marshal all the countries to give up oil I'll come and sing L'Internationale in any language you ask.

However something else to keep in mind gasoline is not the only product of oil refining. Except for other fuels there are crayons, synthetic vanilla, synthetic fibers, tires, and etc. But the other main product is  plastic. Take away the oil and you take away the plastic.

And here is pictures of the Mountains around my home town



____________
"The job of saving the lives of those who are sinking is the task of those who are sinking" - Ostap Bender
"Only a fool fights a battle he knows he can not win" - Ghengiz Khan

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted April 16, 2007 10:18 AM
Edited by baklava at 10:42, 16 Apr 2007.

Quote:
To Baklava
If you can solely through volunteer effort marshal all the countries to give up oil I'll come and sing L'Internationale in any language you ask.

I know... In fact, it's impossible for anyone to get ANY country to do that... Cause masses are just dumb, and people on top would never give up money. We find ourselves on a dying planet and we can choose to either rape it to the end or turn to nature and spend our last moments in righteous repent.
Our call.
@Binabik, I have never been to Plitvice, nor will I. It's nature is wondrous indeed; but it also has the meaning of being the first blood point of a senseless staged war that caused eternal hatred between all nations in the eastern Balkans, in '91. As the band Megadeath put it, "Dance like the marionettes, swaying to the symphony of destruction." I find places like that cursed. They make me nauseous, almost as much as people who take pride in what they did in that war. From all sides.
Like I said, it looks beautiful, so it's a pity that it was stained with human blood. But then again, entire Earth is.

Some more nature pics from Serbia...





____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted April 16, 2007 04:20 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 16:26, 16 Apr 2007.

Ok for those that think that economy is a God as baklava said.

Sure we would 'lose' a lot by not using oil, but how does nature feel? It's like you feast on nature's suffering.

It would be a major change for us, but that's because the current state is wrong. Sure for us it may be a good state right now, but what about others? (nature, animals, etc)..

Unless we're selfish of course...

EDIT: Here's a cruel example in my opinion. Some people just go and kill animals for money (with purpose that is).. How would you feel if an alien started to hunt us down? When we take away creatures or trees or whatever, it's the same as us being taken abducted by aliens -- yet we call the aliens as being evil in that situation, wheras we're doing the same things.

I say, treat nature the same as ourselves. That does not mean to ask a bear if he wants to watch TV with you, but rather think about him as well (of course not with the TV part, but on his feelings/life). It's not his fault if you go venture into his cave and get eaten alive -- it's you to blame, not go and kill the bear due to his fault. It's like an alien came into your house and you (with 'primal' instincts as an animal has like a Bear) start and kill the alien. Was that your fault or his fault? Of course I believe we do not need to resort to our savage instincts and kill everything that gets in our way, but rather respect it!

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Colonel_here
Colonel_here


Adventuring Hero
Descendant of Ghengis Khan
posted April 16, 2007 06:17 PM

Quote:
Unless we're selfish of course...

Well we are selfish. Any animal is selfish.
The actions of humans and animals are a result of two things. Attempt to   increase happiness and attempt to decrease pain.

Overall causing huge shocks to economy is not a good idea. Economy is not something that is exists outside of us. It is part of us, we influence economy with our consumption habits. So any strong shock is bound to affect our life.
In my opinion the government should start intervening more into the economy by directing it towards environmentally friendlier ways. This I see could be done with the subsidies to the industries that work more environmentally friendly or that work to create environmentally friendly  means of production.
____________
"The job of saving the lives of those who are sinking is the task of those who are sinking" - Ostap Bender
"Only a fool fights a battle he knows he can not win" - Ghengiz Khan

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted April 16, 2007 06:26 PM

Quote:
Well we are selfish. Any animal is selfish.
That's the point, I fail to see ourselves as selfish animals, dunno why. we must be better than that!

Quote:
The actions of humans and animals are a result of two things. Attempt to increase happiness and attempt to decrease pain.
Or simply live in harmony and undistrubed

Quote:
Overall causing huge shocks to economy is not a good idea.
Perhaps, have we gone too far that we cannot go back and the process is irreversible? I don't know for sure.

Quote:
Economy is not something that is exists outside of us. It is part of us, we influence economy with our consumption habits.
I say we seriously need less consumption habits then.. I know many will have a psychological pain in this, but that doesn't mean that it's good!

Quote:
So any strong shock is bound to affect our life.
Well we shouldn't have gone this far

I was not necessarily talking about economical solutions, but about human moral, to live by harmony.. some people will just have a too psychological shock when they get out of this economic world. I don't think it's gonna happen. It will require strong moral will and skills, which I doubt most humans today possess -- i.e they are part of the economy, they have abused too much.

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