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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: An Economic Insight
Thread: An Economic Insight This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 05, 2007 09:31 PM
Edited by Elvin at 21:35, 05 May 2007.

An Economic Insight

You should have seen that coming!

Last Thursday I had an exceedingly boring lesson to attend. For all my effort and mental discipline I could not hope to keep my attention on it and soon found myself diverted from the (lost)cause. But the seeds had been sown and they found their way even to my unrelated subconscious thoughts-a revelation! Of sorts I'd rather I got insights on how the world(or girls) works but that should do for now.

Beware, this not a light-hearted post so read at your own risk!



As with most things, the heroes series is based on and influenced by the guidelines of the economic principles. Many parts of its strategy and concept but I should first mention a few things on economics as there seems to be a misconception about it.

It is not as coolheaded an approach to things as it may seem nor just about money or the dominance it can bring. It is an analysis on any given situation that requires even phychology or morals apart from asserting the known facts. It is a skill to survive, control, earn a place for yourself and put your abilities to the test. Of course you will have to overcome the opposition to realise your goals as there will be rivals. To deal with them you don't have to attack directly as indirect strategies and an intuition in their way of thought can be more crucial. You must expand your influence!

Sounds familiar already? Yes, there are some striking similarities.
But that is but a vague look upon heroes. Let's have a more in-depth look into its mechanics.


First of all you will have to build a place for yourself, the town. To do that you must control the available resources and make sure there is a continued flow of cash to keep things running. If you don't you will soon find yourself at a disadvantage. Also you must make sure to have investments so as to ensure a better future and that's where the upgrades come in. It may not seem at first but you are actually forced to do that if you are to stay competitive or even stand a chance against your opponents.

That's a place where H5 is better than H3, it makes your upgrades count but at the same time you realise you cannot have them all so you can evaluate their worth better. It has a more strategical role now.
Of course as you do that you must make sure you are not short on gold as a clever opponent can drain you dry or exploit your weakness indirectly.

You must constantly evaluate your benefit-cost ratio to make sure your choices do not turn out bad. Note that you do not need to have the best combination to win, you should only have a better combination than your opponent! For that you must have a foresight but also an impeccable timing as a counter to the uncertainty that pervades all human actions and situations. Adaptability, a most essential skill to have.

To be adaptable however you must know your opponent, not just what faction he has but also what kind of personality he has. Does he fight with honour? Is he deceptive? Is he even focused on you or is he pursuing something? Knowing his culture and way of thought can be a valuable ally to measure his moves just as in economics. The opposite is also true, you must not allow him to see your reasoning thus keeping him in the dark. In the FoW He may pursue a good strategy but you must pursue a specialized one, something that you know he will be vulnerable to

Now for the playground you share.
The placement in the map can be just as important. Are you in a rich area? Do you have any nearby towns? Nearby rivals? Is the place guarded or free for the taking?
I suppose the respective situation for economics would be the availability of resources and markets in the near regions, the form of the market playing an important role. It may be a monopoly or not , have limitations in entering the market or being subject to government intervention(not a free market as in laissez-faire), have people in need of the products etc.

In heroes what will concern you is just the resources and if you can get a second town to build a marketplace so as not to struggle with your city costs. But also what kind of guardians you will have to face to get them, or even how far they are from each other- that may take you away from your town that will allow the opponent to come knocking. Especially the possibilities of an underground tunnel or a teleporter must be explored from the beginning to avoid surprise attacks. The terrain may also be unfamiliar to you in which case you may consider getting logistics and pathfinding.
In economics you'd have to check the means of transport and their according costs ,safety and speed of delivery- some terrains are just trouble. Cars and trucks may not be of much help in some places

Of course, having an ally can make a world of difference even if he acts independently and may decide to flag your mines right after your opponent has. In the real world such things are more subtle and while you may have cooperated with a person for years you may find him an enemy if he is given the chance. The alliance is pretty one-dimensional and static in heroes, no dynamic choices as in age of wonders...


These are just some similarities. A few years ago I had told a friend of mine that I was better at heroes because I understood better its economic aspect being in an economic school and all. Naturally I wasn't serious about it, how much can school help you  in taking care of the capitol and money management? Geez!
But what I did not understand then was that I was seeing the whole thing in a different perspective. I have not become smarter or better at my funds management but I have come to notice some of the finer details behind the game's planning.
There is no specific purpose to this thread other than to post my observation but I hope you have learnt something from it!


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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted May 06, 2007 01:05 PM

Quote:
There is no specific purpose to this thread other than to post my observation but I hope you have learnt something from it!



Not sure about what i was suppose to have learned... sorry?
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 06, 2007 01:16 PM

To be frank I am not sure. When I first studied this subject I felt as if I had learnt absolutely nothing but in time I saw that I could undertand things better. It's not so much about what pieces of knowledge you acquire but how your way of thinking is affected.

IF you gathered some things you did not already know then it's for the better, as I said the thread isn't about teaching you something in specific-each can draw his own conclusions
I just wanted to post my thoughts on the similarities of heroes strategies and real life economics.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 10, 2007 01:48 AM

Maybe it's because I've been on my way for 8 hours from Italy ... or maybe it's because I just don't get economis, but not sure I have a clue about what this was all about.

Maybe I will understand it tomorrow.
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executor
executor


Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
posted May 10, 2007 01:58 AM

Well, to me (also an economics student) everything what Elvin wrote is clear... and makes sense . Great parrarels!
Btw Elvin, you could add that you talk from the microeconomics' point of view .
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Lord_of_Chaos
Lord_of_Chaos


Known Hero
Chaotic Entity
posted May 10, 2007 03:16 AM

Very nice. I understood most of this because in my school, when in grade 11, an economics course is required to be taken. Now that I've read this, I'll think about playing differently and changing my strategies a little bit. Good work man .
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blink
blink


Adventuring Hero
posted May 10, 2007 05:17 AM

Hmmm...I don't mean to be rude but I don't actually see any economics principals in your post at all.  Sure, you use several economics terms, but no actual theories are expressed other than a sort of vague reference to the law of diminishing marginal returns.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 10, 2007 08:47 AM
Edited by Elvin at 08:50, 10 May 2007.

At least some people understood a few things, that's progress

@Executor
Well, there are a few macroeconomics references as well

@Blink
Not rude at all! But what were you really expecting from me, to cite the laws of economics? No, what I wrote is just the way economics seem to work and how that is reflected in heroes. That's what I meant by principles, sorry if that also means laws because I occasionally miss some english terms. I don't think it would be a good idea to elaborate more on the economic point of view anyway. Just check how many people replied, 3 of which after Alc revived the thread-how many do you think would have bothered to read it? Nothing I didn't expect when I made the thread of course!

Welcome back Alci!
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 10, 2007 10:09 AM

For me its not really about economics but about understanding the game. Economics is just small part of it.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 10, 2007 10:11 AM

Exactly. Economics is but a tool for understanding.
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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted May 10, 2007 12:55 PM

For me economy is not a science in the true sense of the word, and even though I studied some economics, but not very much, I must say the concepts are pretty easy, and every human applies them even without studying economics , so they don't help too much in real life, and in heroes even less, since economy is only a part of the game. It's strange, but the most succesfull bussiness men are not economy majors... so that means learning economy is not very efficient...
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted May 10, 2007 12:58 PM

The most succesful buisnessmen always speak with dubious russian accent and have "Wania" or "Wasyl" as their bodyguard :X

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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted May 10, 2007 01:15 PM
Edited by emilsn at 13:16, 10 May 2007.

To conquer more land,
Money you need in your hand,
To gain more money you must kill,
Then your Empire will have no bill -
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 10, 2007 02:09 PM

@Towerlord

That is partially correct. Yes, the most successful guys weren't economicians but that is because not everyone has what it takes to be a businessman. Those who succeed already have it in them(though may have had some luck along the way ) and the others will try to gain that understanding through studying. In any case there will always be that uncertainty, even brilliant minds may not meet success in the end.

About economic studies yes, it has an underlying simplicity but that's because there is not too much they can teach us about it. Most things there are theories and results from earlier results along with some society implications for us to get a basic idea of what really influences economy. It's you that will have to figure things out and how to best influence your future decisioms, the studies just help you in this direction.

I guess in this way they are a bit ineffective But we'll see in the long run!
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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted May 10, 2007 10:05 PM

Intuitive an QP worthy!
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god2
god2


Adventuring Hero
Your benevolent deity
posted May 10, 2007 11:01 PM

I believe you will find this to be rather obvious in any strategy game utilizing a resource system. Still, nice of you to explain this, as not all think that way. I know I did not when I was younger.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 10, 2007 11:10 PM

There's a face I had not seen in a while!
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god2
god2


Adventuring Hero
Your benevolent deity
posted May 10, 2007 11:47 PM
Edited by god2 at 23:48, 10 May 2007.

True dat. Haven't been playing Heroes for a while. H5's complete lack of fun due to the horrible adventure map AI made me lose interest for a while. Reinstalled H5 the other day to give it a new try in hopes they had improved the AI in the latest patch, which it seems they didn't.

Mh.. After reading your latest post again, it is obvious that you are referring to Daystar. I've never actually showed my face much around here in the first place.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 10, 2007 11:59 PM

You could say I have a good memory then

Anyway I hope people have understood my intentions by now! Maybe Alci too when he gets some sleep
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 03, 2007 04:32 PM
Edited by Elvin at 16:41, 03 Oct 2007.

Time to mess with your heads some more :P

My recent exams gave me the opportunity to check on another important economical aspect, predicting and anticipating an opponent's move. This is by no means restricted to economics as it encompasses a wide range of subjects and it is also a crucial skill to have when playing heroes

In a market a businessman tries to anticipate the others' moves to maximize his gains. One of the analytical categories to do that - beware, confusing term incoming! - is the conjectural variation. Naturally the more formal or scarier a term the easier its explanation. Economists' work is to confuse others remember that
It is the subjective estimate of the opponent's anticipated moves as a retribution to your own strategy. If you make a move you expect your opponent to counter it. You just have to plan ahead how he will react and be ready for it so that you still have the initiative or at least won't find yourself outflanked.

Of course that's just a term, the important things are the tools of methodology. I'm sure many of you have heard of the game theory - you have seen a beautiful mind with Russel Crowe right? If not you should, it's a beautiful movie

From Wikipedia:
Game theory is a branch of applied mathematics that is often used in the context of economics. It studies strategic interactions between agents. In strategic games, agents choose strategies which will maximize their return, given the strategies the other agents choose. The essential feature is that it provides a formal modelling approach to social situations in which decision makers interact with other agents. Game theory extends the simpler optimisation approach developed in neoclassical economics.


Its goal was to show that it is possible to check with scientific accuracy subjects that are connected with parallel/conflicting interests, lack or not of information, good planning or random chance. As a benefit its subjects don't have to be static, it can approach dynamic situations as well and a game of heroes is just that. Time moves, things change.
Some simple examples you could use in a game.
* Your opponent has sylvan and therefore good luck -> I must visit artifact merchants(or build one) or a utopia with my eyes open for luck decreasing artifacts before I engage him.
* My opponent may rush me -> I should make sure I have enough money to recruit units, have learnt lvl x spells, gotten this specific artifact within my sight or simply be close to town to defend it.
* A new one we will see soon enough. The opponent has dungeon and I stronghold. I know that normally he'd go for destructive but he also knows I know that. So I pick shatter summoning as a double bluff if I believe he will try to outsmart me by not picking destructive.

Many of the predictions are educated guesses, you can never know 100% what will happen. You must know who you face and how he asserts situations, what is in his best interest at each time. Which is the main drawback of the theory. Many potential paths that your opponent may take, you just must find an insight on which to eliminate and which to deem as more possible.

One of those game types suggests that a reasonable player will opt for a strategy that will not maximize his gain but rather lessen the opponent's potential for gain. In this spirit you can choose to disrupt your opponent's plans rather than improve yours, say get a -2 morale artifact instead of a +2. On another level this logic also tells that a reasonable player will go for the maximum of the minimum gains I'll explain:
You will not go for the best advantage you can get because your opponent may do the same and he may gain an edge eventually. If you allow your opponent to explore all the map he may find better artifacts or more resources than you. Instead you will go for those you know you have for sure and remain within striking distance to avoid the risk. I suppose I do not need to mention that this is a strategy for conservative players
In the game theory at least.

That's just one possible scenario, there are many more. Nothing makes a scenario right or wrong by default it depends on the situation and your opponent. You just keep in mind some specific scenarios that may happen and improvise.

I should also say I am sorry for the mind-numbing sensation you are feeling right now - those who continued reading anyway Hopefully it was worth your time.
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