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| Thread: An Economic Insight |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 03, 2007 04:37 PM |
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Maybe it's because I had economics at highschool, but the whole idea was pretty obvious to me long before I even played heroes for the first time. There always is an economic aspect in strategy games, or pretty much in every game that has money.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 03, 2007 05:21 PM |
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Edited by kermit at 17:21, 03 Oct 2007.
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The scrutation of this unlikely congregation of signs leads me to the not so evident conclusion that this literate expose might not have the vaguest of meanings for any other than LucJPatenaude himself.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 03, 2007 06:54 PM |
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LOL!  It's not my fault that some terms sound like that 
In any case I have made sure to explain things with clear and simple phrases, everything has a meaning. Most economic theories do not have a direct result and do not work always, it's about the way of thinking and intuition.
I can only give some examples of it that are similar to heroes and write the general guidelines - what you get out of it is personal. And...told ya, it's our job to confuse people 
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NIght_Heaven
Adventuring Hero
Lonely star in heaven dream
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posted October 03, 2007 10:56 PM |
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Hmm..very interesting.I am sure that Heroes has an economic side very well made. At least Heroes 5. Not only once but several or more times is very important how you manage your resources. Is very important what upgrade you will do or if you can build something else with that resources.
The whole heores is based actualy on the fact that you need a good income of money and resources for building and recruting army.Therefore the map is very important.You always need to know where the near mine is or where are your enemies. The fact is that if you dont have the economical side very well managed then you will not be able to grow your town anymore. I always agree with those skills that help economy(estates, recruitment,resourcefulness) because they can be a small part that give your kindom an advantage.Of course..250 gold per day cant be much but hey..is still money.
That was interesting to read. Thanks ,i've leanred something new today.
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Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
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posted October 05, 2007 10:11 AM |
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What Elvin wrote are all good parallels between theories and applications (albeit just in a computer game), I’ve absolutely no argument on the examples. I see it though, another point Elvin tried to convey here is also how easy it is for us to absorb the logic and understanding of certain theories/knowledge/paradigms, in a much simpler form, e.g. a game Being in a world of education/training, I know how it feels. Bewildered faces, confused expressions, bizarre look in the eyes, are all common sight in my profession during the delivery of difficult concepts. But put them in a game. Don’t teach probability using book, board and marker, use poker cards! Or dice. Let them play. They’ll surely learn better I can understand if Elvin got bored in class listening to what’s being preached (LOL), but then had a revelation when able to connect it to a favorite game (LOL LOL LOL  ). That’s human nature, which is also the reason why our kids should not study anything during their school-age. They should play. By playing they’re studying and learning new things.
Btw, I like what Elvin put succinctly here: “It's not so much about what pieces of knowledge you acquire but how your way of thinking is affected.” That’s just about it to sum the whole thing up
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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 05, 2007 01:33 PM |
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You got pretty much all I wanted to say. Nobody cares if you know Marshal or Adam Smith but there are some simple rules that can work in your everyday life. Concepts are not just understood by reading between the lines or hearing them once, you must experience and assimilate them.
Yay for cards
Such posts are what make you feel your thread was worth writing, thanks
Btw what is your training about?
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Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
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posted October 05, 2007 02:05 PM |
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Edited by Duncan at 06:43, 06 Oct 2007.
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It was worth writing, and worth reading at my end
As to the cards, no, seriously, for example when explaining the concept of probability in a class, this is what I'd normally do: I have a deck of cards and ask, what's the probability of getting a red (or black) card? Intuitively everybody goes with 50%. I let everybody draw one, record the result, put it back and let the next person draw again and so on. If say there are 30 ppl in that class, do you really expect that the result will be 15 reds and 15 blacks?? No. It can be all reds or all blacks. So what's wrong with that 50%? Then we engage in a discussion... before..... I enter the domain of classical probability and empirical probability terms. Had I gone straight with those phrases, things would be a bit cloudy. They could still understand of course, but trust me, there is a HUGE difference between just telling them the experiment, and let them actually get involved in the drawing. At least they'll memorize better in years to come.
Then I could extend the discussion with "suppose we repeat this experiment this time with larger number of people..." and so on and so forth, and immediately we're in the area of "sampling error." Voila! Maybe I sent an error message with "Let them play" I didn't literally mean asking them play poker in class to understand the concept *LOL* Then again, I myself learnt a lot better about probability in a bridge game than what I read from many books! Or within HOMM context, it's about choosing the order of your stacks in attacking Ghosts/Spectres given their incorporeal. I mean, if the first strike hits, how would you strike next? I'd choose a (weak) ranged unit or ballista, anticipating it'd miss, then let the stronger unit sends a heavy blow later on. There is no guarantee it'll succeed, but because of the empirical rule of probability we'd be better off in the long run by consistently doing this.
Back to HOMM and economics, maybe if the exchanging rate in the market fluctuates and we can make profit from trading the resources, Elvin would have more revelation on economics this time maybe aboout stock market *LOL* But naah... I know it's not the core aspect of the game 
My training? More details are better via HCM, just in case I'd embarass myself with my own post 
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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 06, 2007 08:06 AM |
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Actually, Incorporal might be a bad example of probability, since there is a special condition on it. After 3 hits or misses in a row, the next attack will be forced to do the opposite.
Luck on the other hand is perfect.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
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posted October 07, 2007 03:46 PM |
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Well that cap is needed otherwise ghosts will be somewhat overpowered. It’s a different thing compare to Luck. With/out luck, damage will still occur nonetheless, but against incorporeal, it will get nasty when you miss and receive ghosts’ retaliation in return. Without the cap, technically you could always miss throughout the entire battle, and that’s not good is it? On a different perspective, with luck all you can do would be just blasting away your attacks, not much strategy can be associated with that perk. But it’s a different story against incorporeal. I’m talking not from the effectiveness issue of any skill, just the beauty of specific strategy that can be associated with each skill.
Anyway, I’m not trying to steal your thread, Elvin, about your economic revelation with this probability hocus-pocus. My apology if it’s such a case
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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 07, 2007 05:45 PM |
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No worries, I don't have much more to add at the moment. A thread is about conversation not a monologue from the author
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 07, 2007 09:28 PM |
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Quote:
Well that cap is needed otherwise ghosts will be somewhat overpowered. It’s a different thing compare to Luck.
Let's say it makes it more predictable, as it also works the other way: after your unlucky ghosts got hit 3 times in a row, they will get missed the 4th. I agree that a streak would be more extreme than a luck one, but if it weren't for that cap, ghosts wouldn't be overpowered, there just is a insignificant chance that they are. Aswell as a chance that the ability never occurs at all, making them extremely frail.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 07, 2007 09:44 PM |
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I see it more as a conservative failsafe. It can never be too good or too bad so it kinda balances itself out. I like the reasoning because although it's still random it allows for some planning.
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted October 07, 2007 10:31 PM |
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Edited by Orfinn at 22:32, 07 Oct 2007.
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I have learned that I should ALWAYS go for the Capitol before going for upg creature dwellings and higher levels of Magic, Shout and Rune guilds. Fort, Citadel, Castle comes close in priority to. So even if I have non upg creatures, at least I have a well guarded town which will last until the threat are over. Fortress are indeed superior at this. Resourcefulness and/or Spoils of War are abilities that are high priority or a must at resource scarce maps.
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Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
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posted October 09, 2007 06:12 AM |
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Provided it's a semi-large/large map, quite rich with resources. On smaller maps with rushing opportunity at the opponent, 5 days to break even from building Capitol might be a long and dangerous period. Other than that it's an obvious choice. It'd have been a more dificult choice between dwellings (not upg) and Capitol. Yes, citadel and castle are also important, for me mostly for boosting creature growth rather than defense. If your opponent even consider to rush and face you at your castle, chances are that your troops are fairly screwed
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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
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Vercinorix
Hired Hero
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posted October 09, 2007 06:54 AM |
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I am going to murder Clauswitz here... you can look at war as an extension of economics by other means
Granted, war is basically caused either from economic OR religious clashes but it is still close enough. Certainly about as valid as Clausewitz's original statement.
As far as figuring out strategies in games from researching other disciplines I've been doing that for a while.
I picked up a lot of insight from reading Sun Tsu's Art of War and various other works by WW2 generals in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS.
Elvin's original post could just as well have been cribbed from The Art of War... the parallels are even closer.
Good night all.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted October 09, 2007 07:03 AM |
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Quote:
Elvin's original post could just as well have been cribbed from The Art of War...
SHHH...don't tell anyone.
Hmm I have that book lying around I should look at it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 09, 2007 08:40 AM |
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Damn I am a shameless thief without even knowing it? Take a look phoenix and tell me how close I am
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 09, 2007 11:36 AM |
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Edited by kermit at 11:36, 09 Oct 2007.
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What Economics and Strategy have in common is Psychology! Indeed understanding that your oponent is just another human being, capable of making mistakes, getting angry and showing otherwise irrational behaviour is the key in economics and strategy. Sun Zu's Art of War as well as economic theories of competition are analyses of systems involving human interaction. Having studied a bit of psychology myself I must say that I learned that humans are rarely guided by logic alone. In fact they are very prone to making mistakes because of their irrational decisions. Both economics and strategy purpose is precisely to rationalize the decision making process and to use the knowledge of competition behaviour tendencies to your own advantage.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 09, 2007 11:48 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:49, 09 Oct 2007.
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Yes, it includes deception and mind tricks to gain an edge. Unfortunately I never studied phychology.
Anyway Erfworld is a webcomic that shows exactly that, strategy requires that you can guess your opponent's motives and way of thought. Not one of the best I have read but the strategic reasoning there is interesting.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 19, 2008 07:40 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 19:41, 19 Jan 2008.
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Back to torment you :P
The other day we had an interesting lesson on economic reasoning on a matter you all can relate to, preventing environmental pollution. Here's what the economists have to say about it.
Production on a large scale causes externalities, ie "has an impact (positive or negative) on any party not involved in the given economic transaction." Basically that means that companies can be beneficial to the local residents by providing job, safety or education or cause problems in the form of pollution, causing too much noise etc. But what happens if the pollution is too much? Who is to blame and what can be done about it?
Let’s also suppose there are two companies in the area, one that produces metal and lays waste to the local river and a second one that breeds fish in the very same river. Supposedly there is a ‘perfect’ level of pollution, where both companies are satisfied. Normally however the produced waste will be too much and will harm both the river and the breeding company.
The right way is to make sure that the fish/metal production is fair according to the Pareto distribution, a mutual agreement to please both two sides.
IF the land there is property of the metal factory the other will have to pay him to reduce the waste so that he will not lose his job.
But in the opposite situation the metal factory will have to pay the breeding one to release extra amount of waste.
The state working separately can put a tax on the amount of waste or put a limit to the level of pollution. That way there will not be too much pollution and if they choose to increase it they will have to pay for it.
Personally I can’t help but feel disillusioned with this idea. Right to produce waste..? Please. The price of preserving the environment cannot be measured in money even if it sounds “fair”. But apparently there is little room for sensitivity where business is involved.
The funny part is that economists will waste hours and hours to make the amount of tax fair while minimizing the impact of pollution. I cannot understand why not make it “unfair”(kinda high) with the sole reason of deterring pollution altogether. Or give some resources to the companies that will process their waste so that it is harmless when released/safely stored or dumped elsewhere at a place it would not cause much harm.
Of course what will actually happen is up to the state but what bugs me is that even in this example they will apply ‘economic’ reasoning.
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