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| Thread: Flat Earth Society |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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ZombieLord
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posted May 08, 2007 03:21 PM |
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And how the apes appeared here in the first place? How come they have life?
Seriously, this ape theory is not better than: "the humans just appeared here, it's not known how" because you can always ask yourself the same about apes
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baklava
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posted May 08, 2007 03:27 PM |
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Quote:
I wonder why they found skeletons/bones of dinosaurs which are older than any "human" corpse they found so far (by million years). You won't tell me Adam was a dinosaur, will you?
No. He was an ameba. That's how he managed to reproduct himself by just splitting. 
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you got the blues."
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vhilhu
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posted May 08, 2007 03:28 PM |
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Edited by vhilhu at 15:30, 08 May 2007.
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those people really had one too many lessons of intelligent design.
im really glad they dont teach that stuff up here in estonia 
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Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted May 08, 2007 06:10 PM |
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omg lol!
some people will believe anything
"the worlds a fish!"
"why do you say that"
"it has lots of water, hence, why its a fish!"
he he he he he!
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baklava
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posted May 08, 2007 06:12 PM |
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Quote:
"it has lots of water, hence, why its a fish!"
Uhm that makes it more like a medusa... 
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted May 08, 2007 06:17 PM |
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In The Beginning, There Was The Wish. And Behold, The Fish Didst See That He Didst Drown. Then, Lo, The Fish Didst Create A Ball Of Water Around Her! Thusly, The Fish Hadst Proven Once Again To The Unhumble Mankind That He Isth The One Lord. The Fish Said: Thou Shalt Not Eat Mine Very Brethren, Lest Thou Be Smote Down By Mine Very Tail And Deported To Mine Stomach Of Eternal Suffering.
The Revelations of Canned Tuna 13:37
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Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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Doomforge
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posted May 09, 2007 08:06 AM |
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No. He was an ameba. That's how he managed to reproduct himself by just splitting.
And perhaps man evolved from ameba, then? 
They are not zergs, lol. They can't evolve that way.
There is absolutely no decent and realistic theory about how humanity appeared atm.
Angelito: bible mentions "monsters" and "sea monsters" before Adam. So, the sequence is retained
I sincerely hope you don't try to interpret things in the Bible literally?  If so, no wonder it makes it sound ridiculous. I would laugh at such stories too
Anyways, if you still don't believe, I may write down the basics of evolution and why the hilarious human-->ape evolution doesn't fulfill the conditions But don't let me do it, I will bore you to death with my biological talk
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ecoris
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posted May 09, 2007 11:27 AM |
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No, please do.
AFAIK we did not descend from the apes (like the apes of today), rather apes an humans descended from a common ancestor.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted May 09, 2007 11:59 AM |
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heh
what ecoris said... and evolution is much more than that
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angelito
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posted May 09, 2007 12:23 PM |
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I sincerely hope you don't try to interpret things in the Bible literally? If so, no wonder it makes it sound ridiculous. I would laugh at such stories too
I don't interpret anything form the bible in any way. The bible (for me) is nothing else but another bestseller like "Harry Potter" or "Star Trek". Nice stories, nice characters, but all in all nothing else but a fantasy / fiction book. Many fans (like the other 2 mentioned books), that's why it still exists, but I'm sure neither Mr.Spock nor Harry Potter will take me on a ride in the nearer future, so I treat all these books the same way.
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Doomforge
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posted May 09, 2007 12:52 PM |
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ok.
here I go. The explanation may seem stupid to some of you, but I really don't want to search for some scientific experiment results that nobody would understand.
Theory of evolution is based on five rules, at least one of them has to apply in order for evolution process to start.
Heredity - Every organism inherits it's ancestors' features. Since apes, or even the "common ancestors" (which never have been found, btw) can't speak or such - this rule does not apply here.
variability (or whatever it's called in biological english :X) - the heredity process isn't extremely precise, mutations occur. Some people may think that our descendands could mutate that much to become what we are today, but come on, count how many complex mutations must have occured (possibly in the same time!). Now count the lethal mutations that always occur, calculate entropy and you'll see that it's ridiculous. It's like hoping that bricks freely thrown behind you will form a castle. Funny.
Limited Resources - Beings have to compete for limited natural resoureces. That leads to sharper claws, bigger muscles.. not to bigger brain. It's rather simple, Brains or intelligence (or at least human intelligence) is definitely not the way to evolve to become a better killer or sprinter. Just check what other being has evolved that way and you'll see. None. And our "ape ancestors" had little competition anyway, given that they were omnivorous.
Fitness - some features change to others to make the organism more succesful overall. Again, this process is connected to mechanical evolution, like, say, the inner skeleton, which proved better than exoskeleton - mechanically. Since the evolution process is mostly connected to surival.
Differential Survivability - what is adjusted better, survives.Again, no other being has evolved that way.
No rule fits the alleged ape-->human thing, so it's simply wrong, unless we have been soooo extremely lucky to get 238759823758923798 beneficial mutations in a ultra-short ammount of time (compared to other beings and kazillion years that it took for them to evolve).
While we can prove that some fish turned into amphibians or reptiles with those rules, and we have their intermediate forms (hatteria, amphibians-->lizards, archeopteryx, lizards->birds), we can't do it when it comes to humans and "apish ancestors". Neither their intermediate forms have been found. Also, no genetical drift, founder's effect or bottleneck effect has occured.
I really don't know how to express the more complex evidences, btw
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Ecoris
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posted May 09, 2007 01:00 PM |
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But it's not only about mutations. Gene frequencies also play a large role. And the genes come from both parents which allows new combinations and greater diversity.
Evolution is not just an idea, it's a theory.
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Doomforge
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posted May 09, 2007 01:04 PM |
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Yes, but if one paint is blue and second is blue, you won't receive yellow, doesn't matter how many times or ways you combine them. Unless mutation occurs  Which leads to the "entropy problem", similar to the universe entropy problem. The chance for such thing to occur is like 10^-10000000 or so 
Also, I can't recall any intelligence-based mutation. Humanity being the only one? What a strange coincidence.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted May 09, 2007 01:16 PM |
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ehm...
i am by no means an expert in either biology, genetics or evolution (human or otherwise) ...what i can and have done however, is read... both hard copy books (you know, paper) and various sites on the subject...
we know that evolution is how every other creature on this planet came to be... that means that we are either not an exception, or we are not of this planet
we also know, that evolution does not move with the same speed for all species... take sharks and crocodiles for example
a quick search will show you that the "entropy issue" is not actually an issue (google is there, use it)
the very idea of natural selection is that what is best suited survives... to me, that means that a smarter human (or protohuman, or whatever) surviving was actually in tune with natural selection... so your claim that intelligence-based evolution is improbable, sounds a bit... flimsy (or, i missinterpreted the term you used, in which case, i am an ass with too low sugar levels in the caffeinestream)
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 09, 2007 01:26 PM |
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Quote:
ok.
here I go. The explanation may seem stupid to some of you, but I really don't want to search for some scientific experiment results that nobody would understand.
Theory of evolution is based on five rules, at least one of them has to apply in order for evolution process to start.
Heredity - Every organism inherits it's ancestors' features. Since apes, or even the "common ancestors" (which never have been found, btw) can't speak or such - this rule does not apply here.
variability (or whatever it's called in biological english :X) - the heredity process isn't extremely precise, mutations occur. Some people may think that our descendands could mutate that much to become what we are today, but come on, count how many complex mutations must have occured (possibly in the same time!). Now count the lethal mutations that always occur, calculate entropy and you'll see that it's ridiculous. It's like hoping that bricks freely thrown behind you will form a castle. Funny.
Well clearly, seeing as you're sitting here, the castle did form..
Just because its lacking small pieces of evidence doesnt mean we just appeared here, which has NO supporting evidence or anything.
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b]Limited Resources - Beings have to compete for limited natural resoureces. That leads to sharper claws, bigger muscles.. not to bigger brain.
Intelligence is a far better evolutionary trait than size. Otherwise the wooly mammoth would be typing this, not us
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It's rather simple, Brains or intelligence (or at least human intelligence) is definitely not the way to evolve to become a better killer or sprinter.
Who needs to be a better killer or sprinter when you can track an animal and ambush it, or use other tactics?
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Just check what other being has evolved that way and you'll see. None. And our "ape ancestors" had little competition anyway, given that they were omnivorous.
Just because two sentient beings evolving is unlikely, doesn't make one evolving impossible.
If strength was a better survival technique we would be worried about bears and lions invading, when we can use our intelligence and technology..
It all comes down to the use of weaponry, and stone tools.
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Differential Survivability - what is adjusted better, survives.Again, no other being has evolved that way.
What do you mean, no other being has evolved that way.
You haven't seen things from the start.
Clearly other animals have adapted well enough to survive, otherwise they wouldn't be here, even if they were just 'put onto the planet' magically.
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No rule fits the alleged ape-->human thing, so it's simply wrong, unless we have been soooo extremely lucky to get 238759823758923798 beneficial mutations in a ultra-short ammount of time (compared to other beings and kazillion years that it took for them to evolve).
While we can prove that some fish turned into amphibians or reptiles with those rules, and we have their intermediate forms (hatteria, amphibians-->lizards, archeopteryx, lizards->birds), we can't do it when it comes to humans and "apish ancestors". Neither their intermediate forms have been found. Also, no genetical drift, founder's effect or bottleneck effect has occured.
They have found neanderthal and cro-Magnons
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And perhaps man evolved from ameba, then?
They are not zergs, lol. They can't evolve that way.
What makes you say that?
It's possible.
In fact the theory is that due to the polarity of water, life began to spark in the form of single celled organisms as prokareotes, which began to live inside and cooperate with other prokareotes to form eukareotes (amoeba), which evolved slowly to form sea creatures, land creatures, mammals, upright mammals, ancient humans (apes) which evolved to be able to stand further upright, a bigger brain, opposable thumb for tool making etc.
You just reject the idea because of star craft..
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There is absolutely no decent and realistic theory about how humanity appeared atm.
Maybe it doesn't sound realistic to you.
Then again the idea that the world wasnt situated on top of infinite turtles seemed unrealistic to ancient tribes.
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Angelito: bible mentions "monsters" and "sea monsters" before Adam. So, the sequence is retained
Can you quote this?
Isn't it ' in the beginning god created heaven and earth blah blah and then Adam'?
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I sincerely hope you don't try to interpret things in the Bible literally? If so, no wonder it makes it sound ridiculous. I would laugh at such stories too
You laugh at many stories
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Anyways, if you still don't believe, I may write down the basics of evolution and why the hilarious human-->ape evolution doesn't fulfill the conditions But don't let me do it, I will bore you to death with my biological talk
We know the basics of evolution.
Just like that picture I posted in the god thread; if you were to be treated for a virus, would you rather be treated with the medicine created when it was first discovered, or the medicine designed for the highly resistant strain it has evolved into?
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And how the apes appeared here in the first place? How come they have life?
Please find out more about a theory before debunking it automatically.
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Seriously, this ape theory is not better than: "the humans just appeared here, it's not known how" because you can always ask yourself the same about apes
Yes it is, because apes evolved from other things..
Or we could just say 'we appeared here', ignore everything and just give up trying to find out.
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depends on what do you understand by "evolution". As a ex-student of biology I can tell you that many scientists think that the theory of humanity originating from apes is just ridiculous as there is completely no evidence and no intermediate forms between humans and apes have been found. I think the same
Most scientists, however, are in agreement.
There is evidence for evolution, just some pieces missing, doesn't mean that we should give up and say it was god
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ZombieLord
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posted May 09, 2007 01:32 PM |
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Yes it is, because apes evolved from other things..
And how those things appeared here? How the first things appeared? By a Big-Bang explosion? How can an explosion give life?
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 09, 2007 01:35 PM |
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I don't know the theory myself word for word but its something along the lines of life sparked from the water in the earth due to its lifebringing properties.
btw they are why the world is a breatheable place because they took the CO2 out of the atmosphere and replaced it with O2..
and dont forget that all organisms share many common traits such as nucleic acid and amino acids
[/img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Huxley_-_[/img]
edit:
wikipedia
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Single-celled microorganisms were the first forms of life to develop on earth,[126] approximately 3—4 billion years ago.[127] Further evolution was slow,[128] and for about 3 billion years in the Precambrian eon, all organisms were microscopic.[129] Therefore, for the majority of the history of life on earth the only form of life were microorganisms and it is only in the last billion years that simple multicellular plants and animals began to appear in the oceans.[126][130] Soon after the emergence of the first animals, the Cambrian explosion, a geologically brief period of remarkable biological diversity, originated all the known body plans, or phyla, of modern animals, as well as a number of lineages with unique body plans that subsequently became extinct.[131] The Cambrian Explosion may have been triggered by the evolution of sexual reproduction in animals, and/or by the origin and duplication of the Hox genes.[132]
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Plausible pre-biotic conditions result in the creation of certain basic small molecules (monomers) of life, such as amino acids. This was demonstrated in the Miller-Urey experiment by Stanley L. Miller and Harold C. Urey in 1953.
Phospholipids (of an appropriate length) can spontaneously form lipid bilayers, a basic component of the cell membrane.
The polymerization of nucleotides into random RNA molecules might have resulted in self-replicating ribozymes (RNA world hypothesis).
Selection pressures for catalytic efficiency and diversity result in ribozymes which catalyse peptidyl transfer (hence formation of small proteins), since oligopeptides complex with RNA to form better catalysts. Thus the first ribosome is born, and protein synthesis becomes more prevalent.
Proteins outcompete ribozymes in catalytic ability, and therefore become the dominant biopolymer. Nucleic acids are restricted to predominantly genomic use.
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Doomforge
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posted May 09, 2007 01:57 PM |
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Since you like loooooooooooooooooooong posts, TitaniumAlloy.. i really don't want to argue with you, no time to put milions of quote and /quote signs : (
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Well clearly, seeing as you're sitting here, the castle did form..
Just because its lacking small pieces of evidence doesnt mean we just appeared here, which has NO supporting evidence or anything.
I'm not saying we have appeared out of nowhere, I am just bashing the ridiculous ape->human thing Some day we'll probably learn the truth, right now we just don't know.
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Intelligence is a far better evolutionary trait than size. Otherwise the wooly mammoth would be typing this, not us
Than why the lions didn't learn to set bear traps instead of growing bigger and stronger?
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Who needs to be a better killer or sprinter when you can track an animal and ambush it, or use other tactics?
dude, evolution doesn't think "oh, the ambushing is better, so instead of muscles, I will give you brain".
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If strength was a better survival technique we would be worried about bears and lions invading, when we can use our intelligence and technology..
To be honest, it is. Strip out of everything, take a stick into your hand and try to beat a lion with your brains
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It all comes down to the use of weaponry, and stone tools.
Perhaps you do not know that apes use weaponry (yes, primitive, but they do) and stone tools (again, primitive, but they do - sometimes). You see them better than theoritically inferior tigers? I never heard of tigers running in fear because an armed monkey appeared. 
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What do you mean, no other being has evolved that way.
You haven't seen things from the start.
Scientists do those things, not me.
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Clearly other animals have adapted well enough to survive, otherwise they wouldn't be here, even if they were just 'put onto the planet' magically.
Yes, but it has nothing to do with humans-->apes. Evolution is an obvious fact, I am not negating it. I am negating the theory of humanity being intelligent and so because of evolution.
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They have found neanderthal and cro-Magnons
I am sorry, they are different species than homo sapiens sapiens. Neanderthals, for example, existed at the same time as homo sapiens.
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In fact the theory is that due to the polarity of water, life began to spark in the form of single celled organisms as prokareotes
I hope you do remember what I have wrote about L- and R- optical isomers in the another thread? Anyways, the effect can't be re-created by any means, in the biggest laboratories. Simple polarity of water doesn't explain anything.
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Isn't it ' in the beginning god created heaven and earth blah blah and then Adam'?
There is a line about sea monsters, too.
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You laugh at many stories
Right you are!
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We know the basics of evolution.
Sure, but I really doubt you know the more scientifical approach I had to learn by hard on my studies, yuck.. 
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And how the apes appeared here in the first place? How come they have life?
There is no answer yet.
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Or we could just say 'we appeared here', ignore everything and just give up trying to find out.
We ain't scientists, we can't do it ourselves. And the existing scientists don't know yet. Maybe in the future..
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Most scientists, however, are in agreement.
AFAIK those who agree became the minority.
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There is evidence for evolution, just some pieces missing, doesn't mean that we should give up and say it was god
There is evidence that we try to link non-related process to the birth of humanity. As for God, if someone wants to believe in a story that World was created in 7 days, why not. I'd like to see a more realistic and scientific explanation. yes, despite that I believe in God.
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TheDeath
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posted May 09, 2007 02:00 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 14:03, 09 May 2007.
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@TitaniumAlloy:
Humans evolved from apes, that's what you believe..
and apes from something else..
and that something else appeared from Big Bang.
and Big Bang appeared from what? it just happens, right?
Where did the explosion/energy/matter come from?
Now I know scientists always argue "This is not our domain and we cannot prove it. It just is."...
but surprise surprise, they do claim "Who created God?"
it's the same question as who created the matter/energy/big bang
At least God created time, so there was no 'after' God, so it is irrevelant to pose this question to God (unlike most scientists which take the time as we know it for granted).
for you atheists, whatever caused the Big Bang/matter/time to appear, was God. What else do you think caused it? If it was something, then whatever caused that something to appear was God. You can call it however you like (i.e Allah, Creator), it doesn't matter, He is not defined by our english or words. He is defined by feelings.
okay sorry for off topic
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ZombieLord
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posted May 09, 2007 02:05 PM |
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okay sorry for off topic
Wasn't this about the flat earth theory?
It seems all threads turn out to some God-related threads...
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