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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Flat Earth Society
Thread: Flat Earth Society This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted May 09, 2007 02:07 PM

seems so..

I feel a bit tired of it ~~

I really don't want to talk about God, since it's a matter of personal feelings, and I really don't care if other people believe in it, or not. It's not my problem.

I wanted to talk about science here!!!

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angelito
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posted May 09, 2007 02:59 PM

Quote:
At least God created time, so there was no 'after' God, so it is irrevelant to pose this question to God (unlike most scientists which take the time as we know it for granted)
God created time? You know time is different from every point of view? And when God was the first "thing" in our world, from what point of view he created "time"? There was no day and night, coz there was no sun / moon. So what sense would it have made to create "time"?

In current stadium of kowledge we have, we won't find an answer to the question "What was before the BigBang?". But there are many many more evidences for the "bigbang" than for "god". "Chaos" is something natural, so it makes more sense all the billions of stars in the universe exist and move the way they do, coz after an explosion many "pieces" fly in all directions, and without and any other force influencing its move, it will never stop moving they way it does (drowsiness). But there is gravity from bigger stars/planets/suns, which keep other objects near them (orbit, blabla...)....guess u know that. So what sense would it have made to "create" billions of those objetcs in space....make the space incredible big....create a very very small planet....let him circle around a sun....and put Adam on it? Why the heck creating Jupiter and Saturn?
1 sun....1 planet....done. This would look like hand made then....but the way it is now.....
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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posted May 09, 2007 03:10 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 15:11, 09 May 2007.

Quote:
God created time? You know time is different from every point of view? And when God was the first "thing" in our world, from what point of view he created "time"? There was no day and night, coz there was no sun / moon. So what sense would it have made to create "time"?
Time exists. Imagination exists as well. You experience time different from your point of view, because your 'reality' is also from your own point of view. Reality is simply the illusion your mind receives from the senses, and interprets it as colors, sounds, etc etc. Imagination is also relative to each one's point of view.

Quote:
In current stadium of kowledge we have, we won't find an answer to the question "What was before the BigBang?". But there are many many more evidences for the "bigbang" than for "god".
What caused the explosion then? Where the energy from? What happened at time=0, i.e at the so-called beginning of time.

Quote:
But there is gravity from bigger stars/planets/suns, which keep other objects near them (orbit, blabla...)....guess u know that.
There is gravity, but where did it come from?
Btw it is simple to say "There is gravity", but hard to say "There is God" ?

Quote:
So what sense would it have made to "create" billions of those objetcs in space....make the space incredible big....create a very very small planet....let him circle around a sun....and put Adam on it? Why the heck creating Jupiter and Saturn?
1 sun....1 planet....done. This would look like hand made then....but the way it is now.....
I surely hope you don't mean human sense, because God ain't a human. You know the saying the Lord works in mysterious ways

mysterious? well of course aliens would work mysterious as well Just think how mysterious we are to animals

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Minion
Minion


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posted May 09, 2007 03:43 PM
Edited by Minion at 15:46, 09 May 2007.

Quote:
ok.

here I go. The explanation may seem stupid to some of you, but I really don't want to search for some scientific experiment results that nobody would understand.

Theory of evolution is based on five rules, at least one of them has to apply in order for evolution process to start.

Heredity - Every organism inherits it's ancestors' features. Since apes, or even the "common ancestors" (which never have been found, btw) can't speak or such - this rule does not apply here.
variability (or whatever it's called in biological english :X) - the heredity process isn't extremely precise, mutations occur. Some people may think that our descendands could mutate that much to become what we are today, but come on, count how many complex mutations must have occured (possibly in the same time!). Now count the lethal mutations that always occur, calculate entropy and you'll see that it's ridiculous. It's like hoping that bricks freely thrown behind you will form a castle. Funny.
Limited Resources - Beings have to compete for limited natural resoureces. That leads to sharper claws, bigger muscles.. not to bigger brain. It's rather simple, Brains or intelligence (or at least human intelligence) is definitely not the way to evolve to become a better killer or sprinter. Just check what other being has evolved that way and you'll see. None. And our "ape ancestors" had little competition anyway, given that they were omnivorous.
Fitness - some features change to others to make the organism more succesful overall. Again, this process is connected to mechanical evolution, like, say, the inner skeleton, which proved better than exoskeleton - mechanically. Since the evolution process is mostly connected to surival.
Differential Survivability - what is adjusted better, survives.Again, no other being has evolved that way.

No rule fits the alleged ape-->human thing, so it's simply wrong, unless we have been soooo extremely lucky to get 238759823758923798 beneficial mutations in a ultra-short ammount of time (compared to other beings and kazillion years that it took for them to evolve).

While we can prove that some fish turned into amphibians or reptiles with those rules, and we have their intermediate forms (hatteria, amphibians-->lizards, archeopteryx, lizards->birds), we can't do it when it comes to humans and "apish ancestors". Neither their intermediate forms have been found. Also, no genetical drift, founder's effect or bottleneck effect has occured.

I really don't know how to express the more complex evidences, btw



Heredity. Surely not ALL intermediate forms of human evolution have been found, and probably never will. But there are several linking the early ape-men to humans like the fossilis found in Ethiopia. It is true that more evidence is needed. However, there is no SCIENTIFICAL evidence that suggest that humans would have evolved differently from all other animals. Therefore, the consensus among scientists is that humans evolved from the same ancestors as apes.
Variations. You don't understand that looking mutations like that is completely inaccurate. Have you studied probability calculation? If I throw a rock, and deter the course of action it takes, where it bounces and so forth. If I look at it afterwards, I can say that the propability for the rock to go EXACTLY that way is 1 to 23089724389057495. I don't know how else to try to say this..
Limited resourses. Is that so? Some ape species for example have defence mechanisms against Jaguars and the like. They live near hills, so when a predator arrives they climb to the hill and start throwing/dropping rocks. The predator is forced to retreat. Intelligence 1 - Muscle 0.
Fitness. I have no idea what you were trying to proove with that one.
Differential Survivability. There is NO proof on your account again. You are just stating that it happened to no one else (which is false, apes for example have intelligence as well) so it can't happen at all.

Now I would like to ask you why humans didn't evolve similarly as the rest of animals? And I do believe we are talking about science here.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted May 09, 2007 03:59 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 16:00, 09 May 2007.

minion: I see you're quick to argue about something that is not MY IDEA, but SCIENTISTS' STATEMENT. I wouldn't be so quick :-X I can only give you quotes from memory,from books and articles I had to read as a student, but in polish. I don't know 99,9% of the words used there in english, and no translator will help here. I'd need a specialized biological dictionary, but what for? You can do it yourself. Just try some recent things, not those from 1990 or so.

And, yes, some scientists say that humans evolved from apes, some don't. I just summarized the main idea of theory that proves the whole humanity-evolving-from-ape concept is wrong. If you want to, you may try some good quotes and show the thoughts of the opposite group.. I am not the one the judge.

Quote:
Now I would like to ask you why humans didn't evolve similarly as the rest of animals? And I do believe we are talking about science here.


I wish I knew.

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Lith-Maethor
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posted May 09, 2007 04:11 PM

doomforge..

sorry to burst your bubble, but lately (last four years at least) scientists (mainstream ones) argue over how exactly human evolution took place, not whether or not it did
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SwampLord
SwampLord


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posted May 09, 2007 04:27 PM
Edited by SwampLord at 16:35, 09 May 2007.

Guys, let's not turn this into the other religous thread, go discuss that there if you want. This is getting kind of off-topic. Also, on the subject of the Big Bang, do you know what sparked it off? where did that material come from, if before was nothing?
Also, I have always wondered how a single-cell organism could turn into an organism with trillions and trillions of cells.
 Lastly, I wonder, where did the first single-celled organisms form from? Thin air? Oh, wait, that's intelligent design...
Let's take this up in the "I gave up believing in God" thread, or make our own to talk about it.

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TheDeath
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posted May 09, 2007 04:38 PM

Quote:
Let's take this up in the "I gave up believing in God" thread, or make our own to talk about it.
I don't think it would fit there at all.. perhaps another thread about 'evolution'

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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 09, 2007 04:44 PM
Edited by TitaniumAlloy at 16:51, 09 May 2007.

Quote:
Than why the lions didn't learn to set bear traps instead of growing bigger and stronger?

You seem confused.
Lions did evolve to become killers, because that is what suited the conditions.
We just evolved to kill them

Quote:

dude, evolution doesn't think "oh, the ambushing is better, so instead of muscles, I will give you brain".

No but if you understood the theory of evolution you would see how that actually does work.


Quote:

To be honest, it is. Strip out of everything, take a stick into your hand and try to beat a lion with your brains

Put an extremely shart pointed stone on the end of that stick, and you have a spear. Thats how it works.
We have the intelligence to invent tools. Thats how we dominated this planet.

Quote:

Perhaps you do not know that apes use weaponry (yes, primitive, but they do) and stone tools (again, primitive, but they do - sometimes). You see them better than theoritically inferior tigers? I never heard of tigers running in fear because an armed monkey appeared.

If those apes evolved to be able to use those tools effectively and make better tools, then yes.
Plus remember there are other ways to live than just killing tigers.


Quote:

Yes, but it has nothing to do with humans-->apes. Evolution is an obvious fact, I am not negating it. I am negating the theory of humanity being intelligent and so because of evolution.

If you believe in evolution I don't understand why you can't see that intelligence is so blatantly obvious as a good evolutionary trait.

Quote:

I am sorry, they are different species than homo sapiens sapiens. Neanderthals, for example, existed at the same time as homo sapiens.

It's all part of the evolutionary process.


Quote:

Sure, but I really doubt you know the more scientifical approach I had to learn by hard on my studies, yuck..

I too am a biology student


Quote:

We ain't scientists, we can't do it ourselves.

So why try? Lets stick to pipes and beer


Quote:

AFAIK those who agree became the minority.

You truly think that only a minority of modern scientists belive in the Theory of Evolution?

Quote:

There is evidence that we try to link non-related process to the birth of humanity. As for God, if someone wants to believe in a story that World was created in 7 days, why not. I'd like to see a more realistic and scientific explanation. yes, despite that I believe in God.

Theist at his best!




Quote:
@TitaniumAlloy:
Humans evolved from apes, that's what you believe..

and apes from something else..

and that something else appeared from Big Bang.
and Big Bang appeared from what? it just happens, right?

Where did the explosion/energy/matter come from?

Now I know scientists always argue "This is not our domain and we cannot prove it. It just is."...

but surprise surprise, they do claim "Who created God?"
it's the same question as who created the matter/energy/big bang


At least God created time, so there was no 'after' God, so it is irrevelant to pose this question to God (unlike most scientists which take the time as we know it for granted).



for you atheists, whatever caused the Big Bang/matter/time to appear, was God. What else do you think caused it? If it was something, then whatever caused that something to appear was God. You can call it however you like (i.e Allah, Creator), it doesn't matter, He is not defined by our english or words. He is defined by feelings.

okay sorry for off topic


not talking about god.

and just because you say god created time doesnt mean he did.

Quote:

Quote:
In current stadium of kowledge we have, we won't find an answer to the question "What was before the BigBang?". But there are many many more evidences for the "bigbang" than for "god".
What caused the explosion then? Where the energy from? What happened at time=0, i.e at the so-called beginning of time.

If all the matter was at a singularity it is possible for repulsive forces to cause such an explosion..
but anyway, we haven't found out why yet, but there is evidence that it 'happened'. no we arent content with 'just is' (as theists are) but thats all we know at the moment and metaphysicists are trying to find out more.

and where did god come from? where did his matter come from? where did his energy come from?
oh of course hes not made of those things. that makes it easy to answer innit

Quote:
Quote:
But there is gravity from bigger stars/planets/suns, which keep other objects near them (orbit, blabla...)....guess u know that.
There is gravity, but where did it come from?
Btw it is simple to say "There is gravity", but hard to say "There is God" ?
You forget that the fact we are sitting down is evidence of gravity, yet no evidence of god..

Quote:
I surely hope you don't mean human sense, because God ain't a human. You know the saying the Lord works in mysterious ways

Yeah, lets accept just is and stick to pipes and beer
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TheDeath
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posted May 09, 2007 04:57 PM

Quote:
I too am a biology student
don't tell me you like it

Quote:
If all the matter was at a singularity it is possible for repulsive forces to cause such an explosion..
but anyway, we haven't found out why yet, but there is evidence that it 'happened'. no we arent content with 'just is' (as theists are) but thats all we know at the moment and metaphysicists are trying to find out more.
You still miss the point. Where did that singularity come from? Where did the laws of physics come from? Isn't illogical that the word behaves in a way, and not "chaos" like in evolution

Quote:
and where did god come from? where did his matter come from? where did his energy come from?
I only said that the Big Bang should be just as silly for atheists as God -- same questions, same unanswered things...

but of course atheists actually have a religion -- the big bang religion. and believe in it.

Quote:
You forget that the fact we are sitting down is evidence of gravity, yet no evidence of god..
Are you sure?
Something pulls you down (gravity) -- how can you be sure that's not God?
If something happens, how can you be sure that's not God?

Just because you don't accept that as being God and try to explain it differently, that doesn't mean there is no 'evidence' for God.

Isn't Jesus an evidence that you don't want to take into account? Or perhaps the Bible?

Remember the light has different 'models', photons, waves, rays.. Depending on which you choose, you have different evidence

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SwampLord
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posted May 09, 2007 05:00 PM
Edited by SwampLord at 17:01, 09 May 2007.

There are people, recently, who claim to have seen Mary, or various other saints. Many people who have near-death experiences report experiencing the same thing. I believe the main point of faith is, either you believe or you don't. That's the whole point of religion- you have to believe. Criticize me if you want, but I do. You won't make me feel stupid. I have faith. That's what it comes down to.

Also, atheism actually is a religion. It's just another set of beliefs- it's a religion like all the others.

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Lith-Maethor
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posted May 09, 2007 05:02 PM

oooh kay

if you are going to keep bringing god into this, lets make a new thread to discuss evolution, intelligent design, etc...

before you do so again however, please, do a bit of research on the history of the world's religions... you may find out things that will change the way you see thing

for now however, lets stick to science, shall we? ...and no "god pulls me down, you call it gravity" is not science... its being childish
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SwampLord
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posted May 09, 2007 05:03 PM
Edited by SwampLord at 17:04, 09 May 2007.

I shall make it now.
NM, I hit the post limit. Someone else make it, please.

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TheDeath
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posted May 09, 2007 05:10 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 17:13, 09 May 2007.

Just a note on the gravity thing: Can you explain gravity? I mean, why does it exist? It just is, we live with it. We know what generates it (i.e objects), but we do not know why it is. We made imaginary models for it, as we cannot perceive it. So now every different model than the currently one is childish hmm... I bet the Aliens that made this virtual world are laughing at us.

EDIT: Perhaps the only way for atheists to really change their minds (maybe not for God, but at least that someone created us, including virtual simulations), is when we will actually design a computer world and artificial intelligence living in it. (like in the matrix movies).

Then we will see how the A.I. (designed similar to us, humans), will do pretty much the same things -- and the probability that we are created by something (or live in a 'virtual' world) will increase A LOT.

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Doomforge
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posted May 09, 2007 05:13 PM

Nooo, please, not another God talk

TitaniumAlloy: whew! Always nice to meet a fellow biology student .  I couldn't stand all that learning, to be honest. I hate to learn things by hard CAN YOU IMAGINE THEY WANTED US TO LEARN 800 SPECIES OF VARIOUS CREATURES, including their latin name, shape of their nests (for birds), shape of ball.. umm.. eggs , differences between male and female, and 8520834092 more features within TWO WEEKS? Sick people.

By the way, I don't want u guys to misunderstand me: I am not an idiot who negates the Theory of Evolution.. I just wanted to say that ape-->human is rather.. umm.. stupid? no, I do not negate that humans evolved somehow. But not from APES!

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angelito
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posted May 09, 2007 05:44 PM
Edited by angelito at 17:45, 09 May 2007.

Difference between gravity and god? EVERY little thing on earth can FEEL gravity, while only a handfull can "feel" god. It's not a question of majority....because ALL feel it...even a stone..

We "atheists" may believe in the BigBang...but we don't PRAISE it( god)....we don't let the BigBang be a big part in our life ( god). I don't have a picture of a BigBang in my room ( god/crucifix) and pray to it every day ( god). There is no GOOD or BAD ( heaven/hell) refering to BigBang.

I never heard about an atheist killing another person because this other person didn't believe in the BigBang ( christians, muslims...)

I hope u get the picture......
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Doomforge
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posted May 09, 2007 07:34 PM

Quote:
I never heard about an atheist killing another person because this other person didn't believe in the BigBang ( christians, muslims...)


No, of course, atheists never kill without a reason, and uncle Stalin was a 100% theist that killed people because budda ordered him to do so..

-_-

grow up, if someone wants to kill, he will do it, and the reason may be even that your shoelaces are untied. Now go and blame shoelaces producents for it..

Sorry, I don't want to participate in GOD DISCUSSION but that old, stupid killing argument is just ridiculous No offense, Angelito.

OK, this time, seriously, no God discussions for me :-X

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TheDeath
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posted May 09, 2007 07:47 PM

On the killing discussion (sorry but just a note), killing is a sin in religion -- so whoever kills means he is not with God. Like I said, people blame religion for their mistakes because it's a perfect excuse. So those with God are not killing anyone, in fact we respect all life and the wonders of nature. When people say "In the name of God", they are not following the religion.. they could as well be satanists, however the quote would then be "In the name of Satan"

hope that clarifies a bit

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Minion
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posted May 09, 2007 08:31 PM

@TheDeath. Well that is quite a contradiction there, about the killing. Are you saying that Moses was NOT with the God? I am sorry, this certainly needs another topic. Maybe someone can move these to I gave up believing in God thread...

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TheDeath
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posted May 09, 2007 08:33 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 20:38, 09 May 2007.

I have never said anything about Moses.
Besides, he did not kill the others. He allowed them to enter his 'ship'.

But of course they didn't take him seriously (animals did . That was their problem. They turned away from God, and didn't want to go with Moses.

EDIT: sorry if I confused characters, i dunno the english names for the Bible, I only have it in romanian

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