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| Thread: Stronghold: what path to take? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Gimmickless
Promising
Known Hero
Cannon Maker
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posted October 22, 2001 07:07 AM |
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Poll Question:
Stronghold: what path to take?
Stronghold is a special kind of town in which you could pick up Behemoth Lair and Castle in the first week with difficulty level on 100%, giving you a headstart in creature production for 5th and 7th level creatures. Unfortunately, this usually has the bad habit of wrecking your economy until you get your Capitol late 3rd week, and that's after selling your resources ASAP. What's worse, your Ancient Behemoth upgrade may come a little bit later due to expanding and buying creatures.
On the other hand, going for capitol early 2nd week gives you masses of gold to deal with early game, so you can buy all the creature structures you need and be behind only three weeks or so in creature production. Unfortunately, this also means that...well, you're behind three weeks or so in creature production, which hampers your expansion possibilities on a closed map and forces you to take the defensive when your opponent(s) come marching in.
Both paths have their merits. Question is: what do you do when you play Stronghold?
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted October 22, 2001 11:48 AM |
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Edited By: Hexa on 26 Jan 2002
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Sorry Gimmick, but any idiot knows that you take Level 7's any day over a few gold coins. (LOL, I used to NOT know that one though, until some very kind people showed me the way...)
The idea is, that with Behemoths, you'll be able to break out of your area and collect treasure chests and gold to compensate for building the Behemoth Crag and these little bits (say, six chests+) will have you well on the way to Capitol production. And it also helps if you stagger across an unguarded town somewhere.
Go for the Hemoths
*smile*
Edit: revived!@
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted October 22, 2001 09:27 PM |
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Idiot
Well, Shae, I'm one of those idiots, I mean only half idiot in my opinion  because I sometimes go for the gold.
The capitol is not only a few pieces of gold! You loose a huge amount of gold, one that you wouldn't be able to recuperate (I'm not talking about ToH maps which are in my opinion WAY WAY WAY too rich).
Take a random map on normal for ex :
You buy 2-3 or more heroes and build till u reach behemoth lair (u might have to build wolf den also).
Sometimes, if the map is poor, u don't even get to Castle or Citadel. And recuperate the money after that if u CAN!
I mean on randoms u won't find that abundance of gold and you'll have very few troops in , say , week 4 or 5, comparative with your opponent which built capitol in the begining week 2.
So I usually scout the map for 2-3 days, see how it is and after that make a decision (part of this strategy is erased from toh maps - u build like a little ROBOT).
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uncoatedtitan
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 23, 2001 11:06 AM |
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hehehe, I must be lucky
Quote:
Sorry Gimmick, but any idiot knows that you take Level 7's any day over a few gold coins. (LOL, I used to NOT know that one though, until some very kind people showed me the way...)
The idea is, that with Behemoths, you'll be able to break out of your area and collect treasure chests and gold to compensate for building the Behemoth Crag and these little bits (say, six chests+) will have you well on the way to Capitol production. And it also helps if you stagger across an unguarded town somewhere.
Go for the Hemoths
*smile*
I usually go 4 cyclops be4 behemoths's, and I haven't been unable to NOT gettin behemoth lair ( and castle week 1 ) whilst takin' cyclops over Behemoths, hmmmm yet, on any map, unless its a 'poor' random or subtourneys( 200% )
Well as I said I must be lucky
Greetings UT
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted October 23, 2001 10:48 PM |
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A happy medium
for me, it depends on who I choose as my main hero. If he has archery, I go with the cyclopses (with a citadel or castle). why? well, because there's nothin' like a free shot
I believe cyclopses are one of the most under-rated creatures (along with gnolls). With expert archery (and tactics helps too), each cyclops is doing 24-30 damage, and they're only 750 too
of course, against dragons, cyclopses won't help a whole lot, but I believe cyclopses are more useful in clearing paths than behemoths, especially with tactics and archery (which are both fairly common among barbarians and battle-mages).
it's tough to get 10 crystal in the first week, but if you're not playing the popular, filthy rich maps with dragon utopias, and roads littered with gold like a dwarven fairy tale, then it's practical to NOT go with behemoths 1st week.
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26) 
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2001 12:31 AM |
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Stronghold strategies
GO FOR BEHEMOTS
If u skip behemots just to get cyclopses u will get ur butt kicked by every experienced player.
Try to get the behemoth out as soon as possible (day 2 would be perfect.) on rich maps or maps where u get a trading post u can allmost allways get cyclopses AND Behemots. Just trade everything u need to get them.
Usually its very easy to get cyclopses when u get ur behemoth out early to clear the map.
- If u go for money week 1 u gonna lose
- If u go for cyclopses instead of behemots u gonna lose.
- On many maps(specially TOH) a capitol is a total waste of money for a stronghold town because the units are damn cheap.
- Never built a mage guild week 1
- to clean the map just use behemot(s) and a few lvl 1 units as fooder , dont carry ur complete army around with ur hero its a waste.
- Regular behemots are a slow lvl 7 units so better get tactics for fighting vs shooters as fast as possible.
Strongholdschaaf
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted October 24, 2001 01:09 AM |
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Let's look at this! Motorschaaf is right! Zsa, Capitol is the strategy of a newbie! You only go for capitol on Random maps with 160% or higher!
You build behemoths week 1. By week 4 day 1, you have no less than 7 behemoths at your disposal. They belong to you. You haven't lost any creatures.
The Capitol, on the other hand, foregoes a whole week of production and 'if' you're lucky enough, by week 4, you'll have 5 behemoths.
So to look at it from a creature battle perspective, you've just fought a battle for a pot of gold that's cost you 2 behemoths. Pretty expensive battle for a bit of gold don't you think?
Even on random maps at 130% which are my preferred settings (I'm not a ToH map kinda girl) I still go for Behemoths week 1. Not only can I take all my available mines very very quickly (imagine the player running round with level 1's and 2's while they're trying to get their Cap!) take nearly all available chests and do some serious scouting. Having a level 7 week one makes the map so much easier to clear. By the time you've built your capitol and started to scout out the area, I've already conquered half the map and taken half the available gold.
Go figure. You should really try it someday.
*smile*
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted October 24, 2001 04:48 AM |
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Zsa's smarter than your average bear :)
Shae, Motorshaaf: it is apparent that you have a good strategy going there. I agree with your strategy.
However, to suppose that ONE strategy would be ideal in ALL situations, is very pretentious. Now for the situations on maps you have described (the dwarven fairy-tale where the streets are littered with gold), it is the best strategy. Most "popular" maps are like this, so you would be categorically correct.
However, do not label others as foolish for following a different strategy, for they are likely to have differing experiences. It took me many years to figure this out, and once I did, I stopped being "always right".
All in all, the strategy lies upon your current situation, especially your economic situation: if u can afford it, you better go for it ... and even if you see a prospect of REBUILDING your economy afterward (dwarven treasury, guarded treasure chests, etc) then it is wise to build it. If not, then the best alternative is cyclopses.
However, if one does not follow such a strategy (of behemoths week 1), it cannot be guaranteed that one will lose.
____________
- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26)
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2001 10:10 AM |
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I agree with Motor and Shae... not using Behemots early week 1 is suicide on all maps I've played so far.
On the other side, Zsa has a 5-0 ToH record, which leads me to the question:
Zsa, are you posting newbie strategies on purpose ? So that other players underestimate you ? 
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2001 10:44 AM |
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Behemots
Quote:
it is apparent that you have a good strategy going there. I agree with your strategy.
However, to suppose that ONE strategy would be ideal in ALL situations, is very pretentious.
Nope . it is definatly a big mistake to skip behes on EVERY map where u can afford it. Trade everything u got just to get these Behemots !!!!! i never had problems getting em , even on poor maps.
Quote:
However, do not label others as foolish for following a different strategy, for they are likely to have differing experiences.
Skipping behemots when i can afford them IS foolish !!!!
Quote:
However, if one does not follow such a strategy (of behemoths week 1), it cannot be guaranteed that one will lose.
I can guarantee u this if u want we can test it in a TOH match . u go for money, i go for cyclopses AND behemots
Motorschaaf
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted October 24, 2001 12:51 PM |
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Quote:
Nope . it is definatly a big mistake to skip behes on EVERY map where u can afford it. Trade everything u got just to get these Behemots !!!!! i never had problems getting em , even on poor maps
I agreed with this statement. As you and I have said "WHERE you can afford it"
Quote:
Skipping behemots when i can afford them IS foolish !!!!
I already agreed with you there, just don't indirectly label the PEOPLE as foolish.
****quoted****
- If u go for money week 1 u gonna lose
- If u go for cyclopses instead of behemots u gonna lose.
- On many maps(specially TOH) a capitol is a total waste of money for a stronghold town because the units are damn cheap.
- Never built a mage guild week 1
- to clean the map just use behemot(s) and a few lvl 1 units as fooder , dont carry ur complete army around with ur hero its a waste.
- Regular behemots are a slow lvl 7 units so better get tactics for fighting vs shooters as fast as possible.
Strongholdschaaf
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To guarantee certain absolutes as to whether or not someone will win or lose ... is to also predict certain things like the outcomes of the random map generators, or knowing the thoughts and predicting the moves of inexperienced newbie opponents.
I have played games where I was stronghold, did NOT build behemoths week 1, and believe it or not, I still won ... therefore, I have provided a counter-example.
Motorschaaf, it is not the statements that I disagree with or find unsound, it is only in the manner in which you state them. From the way you state them you are assuming that YOU are the EXTREME AUTHORITY. And from this I must ask:
Are you God? No seriously, are you? Because if you are then certainly, this topic is closed, and I would want to be your pupil.
If not, then you certainly have good advice, and I recommend it to others.
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2001 01:08 PM |
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lol, Motor's real name is GodSchaaf.. didn't you know?
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2001 03:09 PM |
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lol
Quote:
I have played games where I was stronghold, did NOT build behemoths week 1, and believe it or not, I still won ...
hehe i wanna know the names of your opponent for easy TOH points
Quote:
it is only in the manner in which you state them. From the way you state them you are assuming that YOU are the EXTREME AUTHORITY. And from this I must ask:
Are you God? No seriously, are you? Because if you are then certainly, this topic is closed, and I would want to be your pupil.
If not, then you certainly have good advice, and I recommend it to others.
I m no god, but im a Online player with a couple of played Online games (aprox 500+ maybe more). for abour 9 month of playing homm i totally sucked and u wanna know why ? i went for money , i upgraded archers day 2 and i thought inferno and fortress suck but every game i learned a bit more and believe me after 0,5 k games u know whats important when u play HOMM .If u dont like the way i write my posts - dont read em
I dont wanna sount like a EXTREME AUTHORITY but man, if u read 1000 of crap tactics on this board by players that think they are the best just because they kill the AI on 200% (my grandma can make it), then u have to write in a style that people read what u write
But for u that u think im a god a advice u should follow:
when u play TOH games vs strong player , save every day to see how they play . then u see after a loss why u have lost. and believe me u will lose many many times with no behemots week1 same with mage guild week 1
Hackschaaf
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David_Ryan
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 24, 2001 03:42 PM |
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The creatures, of course
If I wanted to go for the gold, I would play Inferno.
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted October 24, 2001 09:20 PM |
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thanks for the clarification motorschaaf . . . aka Godschaaf
it's good to know that your strategies come from experience (and a hell lot of it)
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2001 10:57 PM |
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Ok , I have a lot to answer to
1. Shae
Quote:
Let's look at this! Motorschaaf is right! Zsa, Capitol is the strategy of a newbie! You only go for capitol on Random maps with 160% or higher!
Well I don't think so. If u played some randoms, you'll see that sometimes going for the behemoths is a bad move. I didn't say always, damn it, I just said "sometimes" and that sometimes is when the map is poor. Let there be known that I am not talking about ToH maps.
Quote:
You build behemoths week 1. By week 4 day 1, you have no less than 7 behemoths at your disposal. They belong to you. You haven't lost any creatures.
Ok, if u say so . U have 7 behemoths , I'll have 5 ancient behemoths and the rest of the troops .
Quote:
The Capitol, on the other hand, foregoes a whole week of production and 'if' you're lucky enough, by week 4, you'll have 5 behemoths.
I think the "lucky" word should be on the previous quote .
Quote:
Go figure. You should really try it someday.
*smile*
I have tryed it. Thnx for the smile .
2. Haile
Quote:
On the other side, Zsa has a 5-0 ToH record, which leads me to the question:
Zsa, are you posting newbie strategies on purpose ? So that other players underestimate you ?
LoL, no man , it's just my opinion. Going for gold on randoms is not suicidal at all (especially if there's not much around). I think the people here have played too much toh maps lol.
Quote:
I agree with Motor and Shae... not using Behemots early week 1 is suicide on all maps I've played so far.
*leans over the counter and whispers*
"And what maps have u played?"
3. Motor
If you're going for money it doesn't mean you'll always loose, I guarantee u that .
4.Wiggy_Wam
The most thoughtful person on this thread I belive, because he didn't exclude the possibility of going for the capitol neither going for the behemoths.
And who said going 4 the capitol is a newbie tactic?? On ToH maps ya , but on randoms ... well , u better think again.
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2001 11:53 PM |
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Quote:
And who said going 4 the capitol is a newbie tactic?? On ToH maps ya , but on randoms ... well , u better think again.
I say it and nope i dont think again
and i would repeat it everytime. Going for capitol is definatly a newbie tactic its no offense its just a fact that every experienced homm player would agree to .
Motorschaaf
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2001 11:59 PM |
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Quote:
*leans over the counter and whispers*
"And what maps have u played?"
ToH maps AND random maps (Encounters), on 100% usually. If you're playing 130%+, I would also go for Behemots, using trading posts or robbing banks.
Note that my strategy is "go for Behemots asap".. so if I cannot get those 10000 gold+res. on a poor map, even if I sell my soul + grandmother, I cannot build the Beh. Lair. Usually my opponent would have the same problem then, so I wait till I can afford it - even if this means one turn of not building at all. That still gives me the "momentum" on the map, which often decides the game.
You're welcome to prove that I'm wrong
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted October 25, 2001 12:05 AM |
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U know, experienced players always look at the alternatives and never exclude a posibillity but you never even thought of putting capitol.
Take this example :
U play with stronghold, the map is poor , 4-7 pices of gold 2-3 chests on all your territory, you entrance is blocked by lots of zealots (or an entrance is blocked by a horde of storms and the underground entrance by several behemoths or whatever), u got the lumber and ore mine undeffended. Some secondarry resources, 1-2 deffended scrolls , and 2-3 treasure to major arts.
If u go for the behemoths you have compromised yourself badly, really badly.
May I ask u how many random maps have u played, u and Shae both? (no offense just want to know).
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 25, 2001 12:17 AM |
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lol, I didn't play many random games, I have to admit it (6 to be exact; all for the Heroes Encounters tournament)
About your example: In Encounters EDITED random maps are used, so that situations like a blocked entrance won't occur. I don't doubt that a freaky situation can be constructed, where it is better to wait some days before getting the B.Lair, but it never happened to me.
And yes, I've thought about going for capitol. I remember it as if it was yesterday: it was a cold winter, 2000/2001, when I played my first games online. I wanted to be really smart and went for the capitol, thinking it will pay in the long turn. But all of a sudden, my opponent showed up and crushed my ridiculous army - and I lost those games miserably
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