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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted July 16, 2007 07:43 PM |
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Quote:
I totally agree with deathy.. Lvl7 unit casting righteous might which level4 casters have.. give me a break.
certainly you are right but has the thought ever occured to anyone that this is just a "style" question?? i mean the blood angels are supposed to be the offensive counterpart to the arch angels right?? so the righteous might just fits the theme of this unit. i can't think of a situation where i would waste a turn using righeous might with an blood angel, so basically i think its only for style purposes
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted July 16, 2007 07:55 PM |
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Quote:
if the enemy hero is casting cleansing on your units, he's merely canceling your buffs and not doing anything else. That means you'll trash him easily, since haven is the melee supremacy in this game..
In a light vs light battle both players start by casting mass haste, mass RM(or other) and then they start using mass clansing. Of course, player A may decide to cast a 3rd mass buff spell but then mass cleansing will hurt even more. For example, cleansing mass haste and mass RM means -12 attack and -1.4^-1 = -28.6% initiative to a powerstack(s).
Stacking too many buffs is a very bad idea if enemy has mass cleansing..
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 17, 2007 09:11 AM |
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well, yes, but I feel it better for my enemy to cleanse my buffs than to frenzy my units. 
I usually use only two buffs/time, btw.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted July 17, 2007 11:36 AM |
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That's why I said in a light vs light battle  And frenzy is very weak vs haven anyway:
-takes a full turn
-resistable
-only marksman/squires are good targets
-can be countered by a teleport
-can be countered by magical immunity
-can be countered by a dwarven shield
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 17, 2007 11:44 AM |
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Quote:
That's why I said in a light vs light battle And frenzy is very weak vs haven anyway:
-takes a full turn
-resistable
-only marksman/squires are good targets
-can be countered by a teleport
-can be countered by magical immunity
-can be countered by a dwarven shield
Frenzy, without the initiative drop of Puppet Master, can be more effective. The hero has less changes to cleanse. The problem being of course that if Paladins have already charged to your side of the battlefield.
Simply put - Puppet Master is way better for Necromancer and Academy. Frenzy for Inferno or Haven.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted July 17, 2007 11:50 AM |
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Frenzy cannot be cleansed.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 17, 2007 12:01 PM |
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Quote:
Frenzy cannot be cleansed.
Oh, didn't even remember that.
But that makes it even more useful against Haven. Sure, he can split Paladins, but that is a counter against Puppet Master as well.
Teleport is the best counter but without the initiative drop, you can score heavy damage before that. And Teleport means no mass spells 
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted July 17, 2007 12:25 PM |
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Dark is great vs everything(except necro) as long as it's not resisted or confronted with dwarven artifacts.
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Jabarkas
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2007 10:16 AM |
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Edited by Jabarkas at 10:26, 27 Oct 2007.
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Quote:
This would go in this thread.
Hmm... time for a thread resurrection I guess.
Ok, it looks like up until now, then the entire thread just compared the known HoF-upgrades, with the planned ToE-upgrades. I.e. so far this thread has actually not compared the "real" thing, nor was the comparison done through actual experience.
So... now when you've ToE in your hands, which upgrade do you actually take, and why?
Personally I've only played Academy, Fortress, Inferno and Stronghold so far, which give me this list:
Academy
T1: Master early on, then changed to Saboteur later on.
-Repair is nice for creeping, while Sabotage is nice later when you face heroes with powerful war machines.
T2: Obsidian
-Elemental Gargs are just too tricky to use.
T3: Steel mainly
-Steel is pretty straight forward and quite good with unlimited retaliation... though... Magnetic should have its uses.
T4: Archmage
-I feel the Battle-version is just a too weak shooter considering its loss of spells.
T5: Sultan
-I prefer far more a random spell ahead of a random luck boost, when the luck-bonus in itself is random.
T6: Kshatra
-Losing 'No Retaliation' is no big loss on a healthy T6-unit.
T7: Titan
-Well, Storm Titans sounds very good when they are inside the walls of a town, but since most battles take place outside the walls, the ol' trusty Titan stands as the winner.
Fortress
T1: Shieldguard
-Since I actually want a bonus that allows me to move my units around.
T2: Skirmisher
-Simply due to I like the crippling wound more.
T3: Whitebear Rider
-Bear Roar is very nice when it triggers, I just wonder what is the trigger mechanics for it.
T4: Berserker early on, for then switching to Battle Ragers later
-Berserker Rage is handy during creeping, while later your T4 will be damaged and there will be plenty of large units around.
T5: Rune Keeper... I think...
-I'm still very split about this one, but I feel that Fireball is better than Firewall, and that Crossfire will not come into play often enough to make Patriarch better.
T6: Flame Lord
-Nice synergy with mark of fire, plus having 3 units that are immune to fire opens up for ol' fashion Armageddon spam.
T7: Lava Dragon
-Ok, the loss of Magma Shield will hurt, but when the enemy bunch up to kill your Lava Dragons, then they will just do that... i.e. bunch up, and open up for some a pretty Fireball or similar thingy. Still, the Magma Shield is damn nice.
Inferno
T1: Vermin
-More speed and more defense, without losing anything exceptionally vital.
T2: Grunt
-More initiative and Leap is just too good to pass on.
T3: Firehound
-Fire breath and more defense vs. slightly more regular damage? Is this really a balanced setup?
T4: Seducer
-I'm not really certain about this one actually. Taking out one enemy stack is very good, but chain shoot is also quite devestating.
T5: Hell Stallion
-Searing Aura looks far better than Frightful Aura.
T6: Pit Spawn
-Not that certain here either. I feel that a caster-unit is good to have in order for having a balanced army, but I don't like T6-casters.
T7: Arch Devil
-Teleport Other sounds like a good ability during sieges, but outside of that? Nah.
Stronghold
T1: Gob Witch Doctor
-More damage and the ability to neutralize the tricky magic, sounds like a far, far better deal than a defensive speed-decreasing unit, when Stronghold is all about charging madly into the fray.
T2: Marauder
-Sure, you lose a bit of shooter-damage in comparison to Nomads, but you gain a lot more staying power.
T3: Maulers
-Warmongers might be better, but they tend to not keep up with the rest of my units, so thus I go for Maulers.
T4: Earth Daughter
-Takes too long time to get Chain Lightning going, so I rather go with Earth Daughters and Hex Attack.
T5: Chieftain
-The faster your units get to move, the better, especially when you expect the enemy to cast some nasty magic. Best way to counter Fire Ball, Chain Lightning, Meteor Shower and Frenzy, is by being mixed with the enemy.
T6: Paokai
-Lightning Breath is very nice, considering you should all be pretty bunched up.
T7: Bloodeye
-Not entirely certain about this one, since I feel crushing blow is a nice ability... but... once again, I find my self thirsting for speed and initiative when I play Stronghold.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 27, 2007 10:27 AM |
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I will update the masterpost within a few days, expect a long, boring analysis 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 27, 2007 11:31 AM |
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Is that a threat..?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Deathy
Known Hero
Angels Galore
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posted October 27, 2007 01:33 PM |
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well i guess i might aswell make somekind of list for Haven units
tier1: Brute
Assault IMO is better early game than Bash. and Squires get Bash anyway, i don't really need 2
tier2: Crossbowmen
Crossbowmen i use in general for creeping, but i might change to Marksmen against any of the harder tiers(mainly 5-7) depends what creep it would be.
tier3: Squires
Shield allies > Cleave. well exception might be against Stronghold who have very small amount of shooters. or a Inferno using Succubus Temptress.
tier4: Imperial Griffin
Battle Griffins are good, but i would rather not lose battle dive, unless i desperately need a good tank.
tier5: Zealot
well it really depends on the fact that whether dark magic is used against you or not, but that expert righteous might is really tempting. of course best idea would be to use both upgrades at same time for maximum buffs 
tier6: depends of dark magic usage
this tier is the most dark magic usage dependant. if dark magic is used against you, obvious choice is paladins. if not, i would go with champions.
tier7: Seraph
Divine Vengeance is decent enough, Seraphs are awesome damage units. and if mage guild offers resurrection, there's no reason not to go Seraphs. tho against certain factions i would still go Archangels.
now the same for Necropolis units.
tier1: both
Archers for creeping, with few Warriors, and Warriors for ending battle, to get shield allies.
tier2: Rot Zombies
better tanks and aura is more useful for slow unit like this.
tier3: Spectres
tankier and ability is slightly better IMO. Poltergeist does have 6 speed tho.
tier4: Vampire Prince
probably hardest pair to choose from. Torpor is better ability if it triggers, but you pretty much need soldier's luck and it is hard to get. bigger HP too.
tier5: Lich Master
losing death cloud to get raise dead is worth it IMO. and they still stay as shooters.
tier6: Wraiths
Death Wail is trickier to use and isn't great if you aren't able to use it against alot of stacks. so not worth the base damage loss IMO
tier7: Ghost Dragon
hard choice aswell. Death Stare made Spectrals atleast equal with Ghosts, but Sorrow can be useful if used right. also Ghosts get raised damage.
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PaleMaster
Hired Hero
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posted October 27, 2007 08:23 PM |
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Quote:
T7: Arch Devil
-Teleport Other sounds like a good ability during sieges, but outside of that? Nah
its a very good ability
to be able to teleport enemy's shooter from its guards is bad? i dont think so
its excellent against sylvan, haven, whos shooters are guarded with creatures which are very hard to go down
unfortunately i havent got the replay when 1 devil teleported my skeleton archers and horned leapers killed them in 1 hit, is it worse than to summon 2 pit lords?
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Jabarkas
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2007 10:42 PM |
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Hmm... sounds like I might re-evaluate Arch Demons... so far I've had a reckless "charge" attitude to Inferno, which favour Arch Devils far more, due to higher initiative and speed.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted October 28, 2007 02:43 AM |
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@ Deathy : Ghost Dragons over Spectrals because they can cast sorrow? Have you noticed Spectrals have gained the -1 morale to all enemy troops ability? Sorrow can be cleansed on top of that if I'm not mistaken.
Also Vampire Princes don't have the No enemy retaliation ability, makes them a lot less usefull as offensive troops if you're on bad luck and their special doesn't kick in.
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted October 28, 2007 05:20 AM |
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Quote:
Frenzy cannot be cleansed.
There's one solution: the Lay hand ability.
Again this damned Paladins  .
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Deathy
Known Hero
Angels Galore
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posted October 28, 2007 08:11 PM |
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Quote:
@ Deathy : Ghost Dragons over Spectrals because they can cast sorrow? Have you noticed Spectrals have gained the -1 morale to all enemy troops ability? Sorrow can be cleansed on top of that if I'm not mistaken.
Also Vampire Princes don't have the No enemy retaliation ability, makes them a lot less usefull as offensive troops if you're on bad luck and their special doesn't kick in.
i did, and i did mention Death Stare, but like i said in my comment, sorrow can be very good when used correctly. atleast way better than the curse of Spectrals. i haven't tested whether it can be cleansed either, but even if you could, would you really waste cleansing on something the ghosts could just recast on their next attack? even if you mass cleansed other things at the same time, they could still get it back just by attacking. the fact is that Death Stare gives -1 morale to everyone in army, while Sorrow will give -2 morale and luck to the 2-3 key units in the army. i don't think that pales in comparison to Death Stare in anyway.
also like i did say in my earlier posts, it is true that Vampire Princes need Soldier's Luck to get Torpor to be effective, but everytime Necro gets offered luck, they should definetly go Princes.
because when Torpor gets triggered, it is better ability than No Enemy Retaliation. also Princes have more health and 8 speed, making them ONLY unit in Necro lineup which can attack on first round without tactics. in my opinion that is pretty important thing to consider aswell. Soldier's Luck makes a big difference, i got Torpor quite often with Princes when i had it.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted October 29, 2007 05:05 PM |
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this is my opinion for new inferno
T1 is depends on tier 6, if i take pit lord, then vermin is a good combo, if i take pit spawn, familiar is better
T2, go for leaper
T3, a very hard choice, both are very good, it depends on the enemy faction, if you fight againts a heavy shooter or heavy caster faction (except titans), go for firebreather, but cerberus also nice if you use seducer and archdemon
T4, very hard choice, as both are very good, seducer for safer road, mistress for agressive player
T5, hell stallion, i don't know why, but for me searing aura is far better than fright aura
T6, very hard choice, as it depends on many thing and both are very good, example, if it depends on tier 1 and if i pick vermin, i like pit lords better than pit spawn, but vermin, pit spawn and archdevil combo also nice (pit lord and pit spawn fighting side by side)
T7, archdevil is better and cooler than archdemon, summon pit lord is far more powerful than irresistable pull, also, firebreather and seducer or mistress can take care protected ranged unit or caster unit
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grow
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 29, 2007 10:39 PM |
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summon pitlord is obviously good ability and strong, and so is alt's ability, picking these depends a lot on the innitiative situation, say your fighting like sylvan or something with the high damage master hunt or arcane alt with no range penalty and they always got very high initiative, summon the pit lords and the hunters/druids will kill them before they get a chance to breathe...maybe even more so with necros because they always have lots skel archers and the liches are high hp shooter/caster so, the pull be better in that kinda situation
anyway who cares...all opinions
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nothing is predictable
grow me
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 30, 2007 10:33 AM |
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the problem with pull is that it has to be done within archdemon's area of movement, and that is quite low (speed 6). You can't pull ANYTHING in your first turn, when it would be most useful. YOu have to move a few squares, and next time you act, it may be too late to make SIGNIFICANT use of this ability.
If the archdemon's speed was like archdevils (or if you have tactics), it can be useful for re-summoning the fragile cerberi/firebreathers to your side, tp give them a chance for a second strike, though. Still, nothing I'd ultimately depend on, and rising pit lords from their corpses is also an interesting move anyway.
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