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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: In search of freedom
Thread: In search of freedom
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 13, 2007 11:01 PM

In search of freedom

As far as I remember, I've always heard things like "you have to learn hard to get a good job", "knowledge is power", "work work work" etc. When I was younger, I used to believe that hardcore learning gives some possibilities later on.. And as the time passed, I believed less and less in it. The things I saw were pretty disturbing.

Let's imagine a common folk, let's say male, not poor, talented, good family. He spends days to learn all the things school requires, then starts studying.. He spends another 5 years learning. His life looks like that: Learning, learning, learning, learning, learning, drinking, hangover, repeat. Every week is the same. He becames involved with a girl, neither pretty, nor especially interesting, but everybody has a girlfriend and he does not want to be worse. Obligatory, he marries her at 4th or 5th year, of course.

He finds a job, gets up at 6, works for 8-10 hours, returns home at 17-18. He's too tired to really have any kind of relationship with his equally tired wife, he's too tired to do anything. He eats his dinner and stares at TV till midnight.

Days pass. He gets a higher salary, buys himself a new car, a flat (since I live in Poland, by taking a loan, of course, since he can never EARN enough money to buy it). Slowly, he gets some new toys, like TV sets and such.. but he works so hard, there's so little time. Every day, he has to do the same thing, watch the same ceiling, wear that damn necktie. Like a robot.

In a last, desperate try to save his relationship, he gets children, but it changes nothing: he divorces being 30 year old, leaving his child in a broken family. He realizes that he lives for nothing; days look all the same, and he can't even change it, because of the 40-year loan he took. He has to work, and almost all of his payment is taken away because of huge instalments.

What's the point of such life?

Why do people so desperately try to live that way?

They spend hours studying, then working, but what for? In my country, it's irrevelant where do you work, you never get enough cash at your first years of working. So you're kinda forced to take that stupid loan.. or to live at your parents forever. Of course, all of Poles take those stupid car loans too, for the most expensive car possible, to be stuck with the instalments forever (and, to be stuck in horrific trafic jams, of course.) ALso, ppl here tend to become desperate in their search of their "second half" -> they grab whatever is possible, marry quickly, divorce even sooner.. Yeah, they don't want to be alone. TOo bad it ends like that.

But why do they force those stupid neckties at themselves? The world is so big and beautiful. I've always wanted to travel, to see it.. not to see the same desk every day. There are millions of girls, why should I grab the first one available? I don't care what others think about me..

I'm searching for freedom.

Too bad it's nearly impossible here.. you have to work hard, or you won't have the money to live.. not mentioning traveling. And if you work so hard, you don't have the time to live. You are a slave to death..

I hope its better at your countries.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 13, 2007 11:35 PM

Don't bash this kind of lifestyle. And don't be a hippie. Let's imagine the same kind of person in a different situation.

Male, not poor, talented, good family. He starts going to school and falls under the influence of (say) a hippie teacher, and begins to think about what he thinks is freedom, and becomes a non-conformist for the sake of being a non-conformist. In middle school, this person notices a group of kids that look cool to him. They don't respect authority. Maybe that's what he was looking for. He becomes friends with them. They use drugs "to free their mind". So he gets hooked on them. He is taught to steal "because the Man doesn't want us to do that." And he steals so he can have money for drugs. His friends form a gang. He drops out of high school, has several illegitemate children with different women, and becomes more and more poor. Eventually, while robbing a store, he is arrested and put into jail. There goes his freedom. And he is killed in a jail fight. He lost his freedom and his life.

It's better to work at a well-paying job 8-to-5 than to be like that.
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Eccentric Opinion

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Monika
Monika

Tavern Dweller
posted July 13, 2007 11:37 PM

Quote:
As far as I remember, I've always heard things like "you have to learn hard to get a good job", "knowledge is power", "work work work" etc. When I was younger, I used to believe that hardcore learning gives some possibilities later on.. And as the time passed, I believed less and less in it. The things I saw were pretty disturbing.

Let's imagine a common folk, let's say male, not poor, talented, good family. He spends days to learn all the things school requires, then starts studying.. He spends another 5 years learning. His life looks like that: Learning, learning, learning, learning, learning, drinking, hangover, repeat. Every week is the same. He becames involved with a girl, neither pretty, nor especially interesting, but everybody has a girlfriend and he does not want to be worse. Obligatory, he marries her at 4th or 5th year, of course.

He finds a job, gets up at 6, works for 8-10 hours, returns home at 17-18. He's too tired to really have any kind of relationship with his equally tired wife, he's too tired to do anything. He eats his dinner and stares at TV till midnight.

Days pass. He gets a higher salary, buys himself a new car, a flat (since I live in Poland, by taking a loan, of course, since he can never EARN enough money to buy it). Slowly, he gets some new toys, like TV sets and such.. but he works so hard, there's so little time. Every day, he has to do the same thing, watch the same ceiling, wear that damn necktie. Like a robot.

In a last, desperate try to save his relationship, he gets children, but it changes nothing: he divorces being 30 year old, leaving his child in a broken family. He realizes that he lives for nothing; days look all the same, and he can't even change it, because of the 40-year loan he took. He has to work, and almost all of his payment is taken away because of huge instalments.

What's the point of such life?

Why do people so desperately try to live that way?

They spend hours studying, then working, but what for? In my country, it's irrevelant where do you work, you never get enough cash at your first years of working. So you're kinda forced to take that stupid loan.. or to live at your parents forever. Of course, all of Poles take those stupid car loans too, for the most expensive car possible, to be stuck with the instalments forever (and, to be stuck in horrific trafic jams, of course.) ALso, ppl here tend to become desperate in their search of their "second half" -> they grab whatever is possible, marry quickly, divorce even sooner.. Yeah, they don't want to be alone. TOo bad it ends like that.

But why do they force those stupid neckties at themselves? The world is so big and beautiful. I've always wanted to travel, to see it.. not to see the same desk every day. There are millions of girls, why should I grab the first one available? I don't care what others think about me..

I'm searching for freedom.

Too bad it's nearly impossible here.. you have to work hard, or you won't have the money to live.. not mentioning traveling. And if you work so hard, you don't have the time to live. You are a slave to death..

I hope its better at your countries.


I agree with you. But look if you're born in a rich family, you can do nothing and you're free (like Paris Hilton) But is that real freedom? If you were born in a poor family than you must work really hard, and...what do you have? satisfaction!  So what really makes you happy? and don't tell me that in Warsaw is bad! You probably never been in Słupsk...

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 14, 2007 12:16 AM

Quote:
Don't bash this kind of lifestyle. And don't be a hippie. Let's imagine the same kind of person in a different situation.

Male, not poor, talented, good family. He starts going to school and falls under the influence of (say) a hippie teacher, and begins to think about what he thinks is freedom, and becomes a non-conformist for the sake of being a non-conformist. In middle school, this person notices a group of kids that look cool to him. They don't respect authority. Maybe that's what he was looking for. He becomes friends with them. They use drugs "to free their mind". So he gets hooked on them. He is taught to steal "because the Man doesn't want us to do that." And he steals so he can have money for drugs. His friends form a gang. He drops out of high school, has several illegitemate children with different women, and becomes more and more poor. Eventually, while robbing a store, he is arrested and put into jail. There goes his freedom. And he is killed in a jail fight. He lost his freedom and his life.

It's better to work at a well-paying job 8-to-5 than to be like that.


I'm not a hippie. Besides, I'm an abstainer actually, I do not smoke, and I don't do drugs. But I don't think it's wrong to take them. It's everybody's personal decision.

The lifestyle i've described is a modern slavery, so don't be surprised I bash it.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 14, 2007 01:08 AM

You seek freedom. Yet, what is freedom? You have the freedom to work as you described. Or you have the freedom to not work. You have the freedom to live or die.

Modern slavery? You know nothing of real slavery. Most slaves would jump at the chance to live that lifestyle.
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Eccentric Opinion

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted July 14, 2007 02:28 AM

Quote:
Besides, I'm an abstainer actually, I do not smoke, and I don't do drugs. But I don't think it's wrong to take them. It's everybody's personal decision.

The lifestyle i've described is a modern slavery, so don't be surprised I bash it.

QFE. While there are a lot worse things that can happen to you I doubt people actually expect this from their lives, especially when they are gifted with a good mind and capabilities. You can't know what to expect of course but I tend to think that sometimes the gains do not outweigh the effort.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted July 14, 2007 03:28 AM
Edited by Consis at 03:32, 14 Jul 2007.

Doomforge,

What you have described is a very true depiction of many person's lives. It is not far off from the way so many are in fact living this very moment. But consider this:

Where is your enthusiasm for changing the world? Where is your unique contribution, that thing which helps define how unbelievably special you are? Where is your acknowledgement of the power of one voice? You have a voice and that voice is no less insignificant than anyone else's. You can make a difference in this world. It is up to you to make the change that only you could. Only you can add and enlighten and inspire others in the special way that you were meant to do. You are indeed a valuable thing all rolled into one singular individual that truly has no limits. The possibilities of what you can choose to set your goals for are endless and infinite.

If you are getting bored then go and do things that others have only imagined:

1. Visit your local planetarium. Go to a junkyard and find parts to assemble a home-made telescope. Fix your eye on the heavens. Watch the stars. Maybe you'll find one that hasn't been named yet. Visit a nearby observatory to get a closer look.

2. Find things and parts to assemble your own short-wave and long-wave radios. Branch out into the unkown dead of the loud dark. Discover who is listening and who is sending.

3. Come to America and write a book about family stories from the descendant of a Polish family. Everyone knows that Poland suffered most horrifically under the rule of the Nazis. Write and dictate an interesting narrative of the stories passed down to you by your relatives and ancestors of what happened in the Warsaw uprising. You can relay much more information than is often told in cold material texts by giving speeches on the people you were brought up with. Americans dearly love the story of the underdog. Against all odds your people fought the evil Nazis with no help from the allies or the Russians! Both stood by and watched your people get massacred! And they knew they could not win but did that stop them from trying? No! Such heroic legends! This story must be told over and over for the whole world!

4. Use your ability to speak English and Polish in other countries that need translators. I once reminded Lord_Woock of this too. You really have no idea how lucrative it is to speak two languages so fluently.

5. Rediscover your religion and faith. Go back and ask yourself the hard questions. Ask yourself how similar you really are to all the other human beings on Earth. Are we really all that different from one another? Give yourself a well-defined philosophy by sitting down to rethink your positions on a great many shared humanitarian ethical concepts.

6. Never forget the impoverished. Always remember to give as often as you are able. There might come a day when you look back and feel especially good for the time you put into helping those less fortunate.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 14, 2007 07:59 AM

Interesting points, consis :} Fortunately, I'm not really bored or depressed.. just amazed that so many people so desperately try to achieve something which is simply and utterly boring. Why to dream about boring life?

Mvassilev, perhaps my comparison was a bit too harsh, still, just look at the ppl around you: always in hurry,never have time for anything,working, working, working, trying to impress their boss, working more.. such lifestyle almost always makes ppl wonder why they are doing it, but then, it's too late to change anything. the "freedom to work or not" you claim to exist is nothing else than "work all the day or be a beggar". Because except for low payments, we have huge unemployment problems aswell, ESPECIALLY when it comes to more interesting and unique professions, practically forcing you to be another "always-busy" lawyer or economist (those are paid quite ok for polish realities). Which I find sad.

"the freedom to live and die" - are you joking? I sincerely hope you are.

I'm optimistic about it, though: If i can't find anything really interesting after I finish my studies here, I will go elsewhere. The world is big and interesting, no need to rot in one place forever.

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted July 14, 2007 12:58 PM

Doomforge,

It is good to get out and see the world. I hardly think you could rot in Poland. When you see the rest of the world you may discover that Poland is a good place to live. The Polish people have much to be proud of. Even if you decide to leave Poland for good, don't let it leave your heart.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 14, 2007 03:30 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 15:30, 14 Jul 2007.

Quote:
Mvassilev, perhaps my comparison was a bit too harsh, still, just look at the ppl around you: always in hurry,never have time for anything,working, working, working, trying to impress their boss, working more.. such lifestyle almost always makes ppl wonder why they are doing it, but then, it's too late to change anything.


Yet they are prosperous. And they have social autonomy, unlike the poor. If I had a choice between being poor and being a white-collar worker, I'd pick the second every time. Of course, white-collar workers can still be paid little, but they are paid better than most. And the work is clean. It's better to be educated and have a nice, clean job than to go and search for "freedom" and end up being poor.

Quote:
the "freedom to work or not" you claim to exist is nothing else than "work all the day or be a beggar".


Yes.

Quote:
practically forcing you to be another "always-busy" lawyer or economist (those are paid quite ok for polish realities). Which I find sad.


Good. It encourages people to seek an education and have a good job.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 14, 2007 03:41 PM

actually, a good physical laborer (like a good welder) earns much more than a doctor (!) in Poland, so I don't understand the education part. For a "good" job, umm, it's good because you say it is? I always thought a good job means a job you like, whether you are a lawyer, or a dustman, as long as you find it interesting..

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 14, 2007 03:53 PM

A welder earns more than a doctor? Then I understand your problem. Still, doctor is a cleaner and more respected job than welder.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 14, 2007 04:03 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 16:04, 14 Jul 2007.

yes..

unfortunately. The doctors are striking in Poland atm, no wonder they are.. after 12 years of studying, 300 euro/month seems an outrage.

A good welder earns 1000-1500 euro/month, which seems better than 300 e/month + respect, sadly.

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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted July 14, 2007 04:28 PM

Lol same thing is in israel,only with cops and teachers,in israel they have lowest paycheck.
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types in obscure english

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setitetart
setitetart


Known Hero
Reality check....
posted July 24, 2007 09:04 AM

Doom I feel bad that the majority of folks didnt seem to get the post.

I understand what you are saying and I have both a thought and a question.

You say everyone is basically forced to take out these loans to just make it by in their daily lives and if they want anything, again they must take out these laons...then spend the rest of their natural lives (and 14 of their unnatural ones) paying off all these loans.

My question is why couldn't you take the loan to leave? Or in some way save enough to leave. Not necessarily here...anywhere you'd want to go really. I would say research the options and what fits with the things you know.

The thought being that since you shared the economic aspects of Poland I have to wonder why so many put up with living that way or dont try to force some kind of reform that is kinder to people.

It kind of reminds of where I live.
Not that it is a bad state to live in, it really isnt in comparision to where you live....
but our state likes to block out certain industries and limits what corperations can come here and operate.
We have great schools in this state and the kids who go to college and study hard for their degrees, graduate and suddenly find that they are unable to get a job in their field.
They usually end up moving to a different state because they cant find work.
And rather than break their back at a burger King for minimum wage when they have a degree in criminal justice, they move and rarely return unless it is much later to raise a family.

I actually agree with 2 things Consis said...the first being that bi-lingual people are valuable and that could be a ticket out.
The second one to never forget where you came from.
It is those hardships and experiences that will make you appreciate things later when you do have it good.


____________
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 24, 2007 09:33 AM

Quote:
You say everyone is basically forced to take out these loans to just make it by in their daily lives and if they want anything, again they must take out these laons...then spend the rest of their natural lives (and 14 of their unnatural ones) paying off all these loans.


Yes, exactly my point. If you take them, you are a serf for the rest of your live, working to pay your serfdom.  

Quote:
My question is why couldn't you take the loan to leave? Or in some way save enough to leave. Not necessarily here...anywhere you'd want to go really. I would say research the options and what fits with the things you know.


It's a nice country, with many great people and really great girls Plus, I have not taken a loan yet.. perhaps I will find a way around it.

Quote:
The thought being that since you shared the economic aspects of Poland I have to wonder why so many put up with living that way or dont try to force some kind of reform that is kinder to people.


That bugs me too..

Quote:

We have great schools in this state and the kids who go to college and study hard for their degrees, graduate and suddenly find that they are unable to get a job in their field.


seems much like Poland to me. I used to study biology, but once I realized how hard it is and how FEW biologists are needed in my country, I quit.

Quote:
And rather than break their back at a burger King for minimum wage when they have a degree in criminal justice, they move and rarely return unless it is much later to raise a family.


Amusingly, a lot of Poles hate those who leave our country, calling them cowards, losers, failures and such. Never understood why. They say that all who leave gonna work at scourer in England forever. Stereotypes are BAD indeed

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted July 24, 2007 10:35 AM
Edited by baklava at 10:43, 24 Jul 2007.

Quote:
I hope its better at your countries.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yea especially here in Serbia lololololol

Quote:
The thought being that since you shared the economic aspects of Poland I have to wonder why so many put up with living that way or dont try to force some kind of reform that is kinder to people.

Doesn't work that way. The problem with the masses is that they cannot function on their own, like cattle. Why did the Russian people put up with living under Stalin, or my people under Milosevic (until Zoran Djindjic rised among them as a leader)? Why didn't the American people put up with the war in Iraq etc? Because those who do are simply either eliminated, or negatively propaganded, ignored and in the end - forgotten. I'm not saying that such a situation is in Poland now, but I'm just giving an example about the psychology of the masses. They're afraid of making the situation worse than it is, plus they cannot organize, without a strong and smart leader, but those have to appear at the right time in the right place, which is sort of rare.

Besides, on the level of an individual, it's more or less similar everywhere. Do you remember John Lennon's "Working Class Hero"?

As soon as you're born they make you feel small,
By giving you no time instead of it all,
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
They hurt you at home and they hit you at school,
They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool,
Till you're so f*cking crazy you can't follow their rules,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
When they've tortured and scared you for twenty odd years,
Then they expect you to pick a career,
When you can't really function you're so full of fear,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV,
And you think you're so clever and classless and free,
But you're still f*cking peasants as far as I can see,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
There's room at the top they are telling you still,
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,
If you want to be like the folks on the hill,
A working class hero is something to be.
A working class hero is something to be.

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TitaniumAlloy
TitaniumAlloy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
posted July 24, 2007 11:07 AM

A quote from the greatest guitarist of all time:

"America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve."

Tom Morello
____________
John says to live above hell.

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