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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Clash of heroes: battle #5
Thread: Clash of heroes: battle #5 This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
David_Ryan
David_Ryan


Adventuring Hero
posted October 26, 2001 07:40 PM
Edited By: Hexa on 26 Jan 2002

Clash of heroes: battle #5

Who would you rather pick up:

Elleshar or Thorgrim

Edit: revived!@
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zsa
zsa


Famous Hero
posted October 26, 2001 09:50 PM

I must tell u this. When I first started playing heroesIII, Elleshar was my favourite rampart hero (I thought he was the BEST rampart could offer ). But as I played, my opinion began to change...
If u fight aginst a magic bound hero, thorgrim would be my choice, no discussion 'bout that.
If I fought a might hero... I don't know I'll pick whoever I feel like playing.

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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted October 26, 2001 10:06 PM

My preferrence

I'm more of a might over magic person myself, so I'd go with thorgrim  
I prefer warriors.
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models.  Well ... the ones his age (18-26)  

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RMS
RMS


Responsible
Legendary Hero
-ing yummy foods
posted October 26, 2001 10:12 PM

...he wouldn't be my top choice of a druid, but I'de go with Elleshar...
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DVZ
DVZ


Known Hero
posted October 26, 2001 10:35 PM

Quote:
...he wouldn't be my top choice of a druid, but I'de go with Elleshar...


Who'd be a better Druid than Elleshar? Aeris? LoL.

Intelligence-specialty heroes are some of the top heroes. Thorgrim may sound tempting but the resistance-specialty is not always reliable when hit by mass spell.

I won't even think twice of choosing Elleshar. You can really keep on going on endlessly casting spell when playing Intelligence-specialty game. And when more advanced spells are available, there's no contest that Elleshar will outlast Thorgrim.

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David_Ryan
David_Ryan


Adventuring Hero
posted October 27, 2001 10:34 AM

I choose Elleshar

Resistence is great but only if there's a bigger per cent of it. Thor adds only 1% to the skill per level which is rather meagre. On the other hand, Elleshar makes a bottomless well of spell points. He has saved my ass in great battles. I'm going to give an example.

I battled vs. Luna. What did she have? 50 blackies, 700 Evil eyes, 500 Medusas, 2K troglodytes, 100 manticores and 1k harpies and 20 Phoenixes, Shackles or war, AB (AB!!!)I had 900 elves, 150 War unicorns, etc. My army was easily killed in the battle (imagine, AB) but Luna ran a little out of spell points after casting AB for the seventh time. I could summon 151 Air Elements and having 1,500 SP I summon them until she died. And oh, I forgot she had Tome of Earth magic and I got it! ~Dragon smiles~
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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted October 27, 2001 11:53 PM

Thorgrim. There`s no competition between them. Thorgrim is clearly better. Rangers are better hero class than druids overall. Jenova and Kyrre are good choices for heroes as is Ivor and many other rangers.

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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 27, 2001 11:53 PM

Your battle seems irrelevant, I've never seen such armies on toh maps, or even XL maps (apart from stupid diplo lol) Obviously you have never seen a level 15 or 20 Thorgrimm at work. Yes he is negated by the black orb, but for the most part, magic heroes suck anyway. An example of this is a game I had with A player called Warlock Zedrin on the hourglass map. I had a fine magic hero, managed to find the earth tome, and had about 25 power. So unless he has recanters, H'es history. Now he is hiding his main until week 3, and when I finally see Thorgrimm, it is too late to change. He comes into my area with about 14 ancient behemoths, some birds, ogres and orcs. the battle lasted 5 rounds where I unsuccessfully tried to implo his ancients 5 times (you think I would have learned) Thorgrimm ripped me apart, which goes to show me, that unless you have the black orb, Thorgrimm will beat an army of similar size, that is being carried by a magic hero EVERY time.
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lordlazy
lordlazy


Promising
Famous Hero
Wood cleaner
posted October 31, 2002 04:57 PM

I'd choose thorgrim

By the way...I love magic heroes...but not druids!!!

And please....no "he'll have extremely large amounts of spell points" now....

Whats the point in having a magic hero if he have'nt got enough power?

Yes.....Druids will gain much more in knowledge then power......and this will make his specialty even better...but what will you do when you're facing an level 10 warlock with you're for example level 14 druid.....you have the same armies....but wait a minute....you have 5 in power and 10 in knowledge and he have 10 in power and 5 i knowledge...he have visited the mana vortex and have 100 spell points......so you can cast more spells than him...but his spells will be more powerful!!!!

Druids sucks!
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Tagged officially as Noobegian two years ago. This typographic material is strictly copyrighted. All situations containing abuse will be brought to court.

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HeyYou
HeyYou


Known Hero
and beloved food provider.
posted October 31, 2002 11:35 PM

David_Ryan

You didn't have Anti-Magic? Or no Earth Magic? Woulda solved your AB problem.

Earth Magic rules. Water Magic is next.

I like magic heroes, but I played Thorgrim once just to see if his Resistance was really 'all that.' It was o.k., I guess.

I'll take an Intelligence over Resistance though, for this simple reason: Intelligence always works; not so with Resistance.

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Destro23
Destro23


Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
posted November 01, 2002 12:53 PM

Well I can remember one game..

Me vs PLayer A

It was a 2o2 map and in fact... my hero was thorgrim and his was Crag Hack..

He was a tower, I was also a tower.. we had our battle to which full armies where brought about week 3 day 3, so about 4 giants, 9 naga queens, ect..

I had two things win this battle for me.. Ressurection being the smaller of the two.. Anyway THorgrim had enough spell points to basically ressurect most of the units that where being killed... and it came down to him clearly on top and me clearly not

Anyway as the battle continues it became apparent I would lose.. and so my 4 giants ran to a corner, got stone skin, and prayer placed on them... now his force could not kill the stack in a single turn..  He tried and tried to cast spells on those defending giants until he ran out of mana.. by this time I had approximately 50 or so left.. Ressurected my queens and giants and dropped a meteor shower on his force..

Anyway .. the morale of the story.. resistance won me this fight BIG time.  I had 4 of 7 creatures resisting mass slows, inaffective meteor showers.. and probably implos.. although I really don't know.

You know what ellehare would have done vs Hack?

DIED a quick painful death.!!!

Another thing I like about THorgrim, is he is the only Ranger that does not come with a secondary skill, which allows us to better shape him to our strategies.



--------------------
The Dead Walk!!!

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ong_y_j
ong_y_j

Tavern Dweller
posted December 14, 2007 03:15 PM

Elleshar over Thorgrim in all scenarios.

Absolutely Elleshar over Thorgrim

Okay, I'm a noob, but the thing is, I firmly believe that resistance is "over-rated" by heroes playing against magic heroes. Is magic resistance the "solution" against magic heroes? Far from it. So what if your Thorgrim builds himself to 100% magic resistance? By then my expert int. would have given Elleshar more than double normal spell points. Don't forget that Elleshar can pump his own troops instead of casting damage or mass spells on Thorgrim's troops. Thorgrim has no advantage over my Elleshar's troops when I'm pumping my own troops. Last but not least, the ultimate level 5 spells, summon elementals, are dependent with spell points. No matter how I see it, Elleshar's speciality guarantees him an advantage in battle, so long as hes allowed to cast spells, whereas for Thorgrim, he has advantage only against damage dealing magic heroes. No matter how I see it, Elleshar owns Thorgrim. And hate me if you want, I don't see much usefulness of magic resistance at all. At most it protects you from the 1st spell-bombing if I didn't know you have the skill. Its not a "real deal".

Of course, because I'm a noob, I'm looking for all useful comments and criticisms from everyone.

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ruho
ruho


Hired Hero
posted December 14, 2007 06:33 PM
Edited by ruho at 18:41, 14 Dec 2007.

Ok, let's have some criticism

Quote:

ong_y_j wrote:
Absolutely Elleshar over Thorgrim

Okay, I'm a noob, but the thing is, I firmly believe that resistance is "over-rated" by heroes playing against magic heroes. Is magic resistance the "solution" against magic heroes? Far from it.



Let's see what advantages do magic heroes have over might heroes.
1. If main fight happens VERY soon, magic will have better chance to have expert magic school
2. Magic ones will prolly have bigger Spell Power, so (some) spells are more efficient
3. Magic ones will probably have more spell points int he end fight
Can't think any other obvious advantages right now...

1. & 3. aren't usually  essential, so the biggest asset is powerful damage spells (or maybe sometimes Summon X Elemntal). Resistance may not be the best counter against magic hero, but if his only asset, the big bad spell, happens to be resisted even once, the situation looks very bad for him...
Quote:

So what if your Thorgrim builds himself to 100% magic resistance?


Not important, but Resistance grants 5/10/20% magic resistance so in real game that's (100%) not gonna happen.
Quote:

By then my expert int. would have given Elleshar more than double normal spell points.


Spell points doesn't really matter when u are fighting versus might hero with a magic one. You just want to take him down with damage spells asap, because that's your only real asset. Make a fight with map editor where a magic hero with Primary Skill ~5/5/10/15 gets attacked by a might hero with Primary Skill ~15/10/5/5 and expert Offence who casts mass Haste and has moved his troops towards you thanks to expert Tactics and see what happens (for example with 4 weeks full army). You'll realize that magic heroes really don't want (actually can't ) end fight last so long that spell points would make a difference.  
Quote:

Don't forget that Elleshar can pump his own troops instead of casting damage or mass spells on Thorgrim's troops. Thorgrim has no advantage over my Elleshar's troops when I'm pumping my own troops.


That is exactly one common delusion on magic heroes assets. Let's take an example. You cast mass Prayer on your troops. Well the might one cast it too and your "advantage" is gone and because might hero's army deals much more damage and takes much less damage than your troops (thanks to higher Attack -and Defece Skills and more probable Offence & Armorer) you are in trouble.
Quote:

Last but not least, the ultimate level 5 spells, summon elementals, are dependent with spell points.


I guess you mean Spell Power. But on the other hand Elementals in might hero's army are much better, because of the higher Attack -and Defece Skills and more probable Offence & Armorer. And because might heroes do much better against the map they'll get better artifacts sooner so actually their Spell Power won't (often) be that much lower than magic heroes'. So no obvious asset there either.
Quote:

No matter how I see it, Elleshar's speciality guarantees him an advantage in battle, so long as hes allowed to cast spells, whereas for Thorgrim, he has advantage only against damage dealing magic heroes. No matter how I see it, Elleshar owns Thorgrim.


Elleshar's speciality guarantees him an advantage in fights that last so long that high spell points matter. That won't be the case versus might hero. And yeah he won't even always be able to cast those spells( Recanter's Cloack, Orb of Inhibition ).

As a might Hero, Thorgrim will most often have an advantage over any magic hero. Unless very early end fight, i can't see any chances for Elleshar.
Quote:

And hate me if you want, I don't see much usefulness of magic resistance at all. At most it protects you from the 1st spell-bombing if I didn't know you have the skill. Its not a "real deal".

Of course, because I'm a noob, I'm looking for all useful comments and criticisms from everyone.


Ahem, if you'll make that example fight that I mentioned previously you'll see that the success of the "1st spell-bombing" is essential if u're gonna have any troops left to make a second or third one.

Resistance may not be the best skill, but it has its advantages. You won't have (nearly) any benefit of it vs map, but if u happen to get it just before the main fight it could easily decide the result if it happens to take place just in the right place.

Oh, and you don't need to kowtow here even if you feel like other are more experinced.

Hopefully it all was put clearly so you might learn something.

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Salibu
Salibu


Hired Hero
posted October 04, 2008 05:08 PM
Edited by Salibu at 17:14, 06 Oct 2008.

Elleshar in a landslide.

Your example of losing to Thorgrim just showed bad spell choices on your part.

Heres why:

If you fight Thorgrim ..you dont cast offesive spells...you cast summon spells...you just keep summoning massive amounts of earth or air ele's...now when you have more then him you can spread out your eles....and start ressurecting your previous troops...Elleshar easily tramples Thorgrim if the person behind the keyboard uses the correct strategy per fight. Basically unlimited spell points will beat any might hero...every time.

Thorgrim is great...but only at advanced levels...Elleshar is great right away.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted October 04, 2008 05:51 PM

Quote:
...Thorgrim easily tramples Thorgrim if the person behind the keyboard uses the correct strategy per fight. Basically unlimited spell points will beat any might hero...every time..
Interesting statement. Have you ever played vs a human opponent? I would love to invite you into a non-rules game (except diplomacy) where you take Elleshar and I take Thorgrimm.
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Salibu
Salibu


Hired Hero
posted October 06, 2008 05:14 PM
Edited by Salibu at 17:22, 06 Oct 2008.

I have played humans many a time.

If we had the same army I would win with elleshar.
Every.Single.Time.

Heres the reason...

Elleshar's special would still be useful...yours would not be useful at all in any way shape or form....

I would use my entire mana supply to summon earth ellies and ressurect...Elleshar wins in a landslide...

Think about it...

If we meet low level..your Magic Resistance isnt as ridiculous as it is later...so I can now "attempt" to use magic on you...

If we meet high level...I could easily have 1000+ mana points...
Elleshar usually has Earth Magic...

So everytime you attack I am counter attacking and either just ressing the troops or summoning Earth Ele's

To be honest I dont understand what logic people can use to defeat Elleshar with Thor unless you have magic hindering items...

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted October 06, 2008 05:48 PM

Quote:
Your battle seems irrelevant, I've never seen such armies on toh maps, or even XL maps (apart from stupid diplo lol) Obviously you have never seen a level 15 or 20 Thorgrimm at work. Yes he is negated by the black orb, but for the most part, magic heroes suck anyway. An example of this is a game I had with A player called Warlock Zedrin on the hourglass map. I had a fine magic hero, managed to find the earth tome, and had about 25 power. So unless he has recanters, H'es history. Now he is hiding his main until week 3, and when I finally see Thorgrimm, it is too late to change. He comes into my area with about 14 ancient behemoths, some birds, ogres and orcs. the battle lasted 5 rounds where I unsuccessfully tried to implo his ancients 5 times (you think I would have learned) Thorgrimm ripped me apart, which goes to show me, that unless you have the black orb, Thorgrimm will beat an army of similar size, that is being carried by a magic hero EVERY time.


Why the hell would you try to cast implo on Thor? Its a lot more clever to cast ressurect on your creatures, or even summon elementals

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted October 06, 2008 07:39 PM

Quote:
I have played humans many a time.

If we had the same army I would win with elleshar.
Every.Single.Time.

Heres the reason...

Elleshar's special would still be useful...yours would not be useful at all in any way shape or form....

I would use my entire mana supply to summon earth ellies and ressurect...Elleshar wins in a landslide...

Think about it...

If we meet low level..your Magic Resistance isnt as ridiculous as it is later...so I can now "attempt" to use magic on you...

If we meet high level...I could easily have 1000+ mana points...
Elleshar usually has Earth Magic...

So everytime you attack I am counter attacking and either just ressing the troops or summoning Earth Ele's

To be honest I dont understand what logic people can use to defeat Elleshar with Thor unless you have magic hindering items...

You won't face Thorgrimm with the same army...I'm 100% sure..
And your spellpoints won't help a dime.

My invitation still stands...
Come to Gamespy and face me on a big map
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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Salibu
Salibu


Hired Hero
posted October 07, 2008 04:43 PM
Edited by Salibu at 16:44, 07 Oct 2008.

Ok...I will have to get set up for online play again...I havent played online for a few months...

What is your ICQ?

I am at work but I will ICQ when I get home...and I can get set up and we can play.

What re the rules?

Am I to assume you are somehow going to have the Red Orb right away?

lol

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted October 07, 2008 04:54 PM

I don't have ICQ. Just download Gamespy arcade basic (for free) and enter the lobby for Heroes 3. There you wil find 20-40 players each day. I got the same nickname as here.

And no, I don't plan to get the red orb right away. We even can rule it out if you want
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