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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: I just can't win with Academy
Thread: I just can't win with Academy This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted July 24, 2007 11:38 AM
Edited by HEBPEME at 11:43, 24 Jul 2007.

I just can't win with Academy

This is getting really frustrating!

Yesterday, i decided (for the 10th time) to give it a try with Academy against my friend who was playing Dungeon.
Map was War of the worlds (me player number 6, him 1).
My hero - Faiz (i took him for the first and probably the last time, my friend used Yrwanna)
From the beginning of the game, everything was fine. I decided to take Faiz because of the thread i was browsing through yesterday, about Academy advanced strategies. So i had dark, summoning, light, enl and sorcery. Of course i took all three masteries of dark, master of blessings and abjuration, master of conjuration, and so on. Couldn't get counterspell but it turned out it would be useless anyway.
Anyway, since that map is quite large, the game went on for few hours. We were both around lvl 25 and my stats (without minis) were att 7, def 14, sp 18, kno 34. Also, we both had a second town from our faction since week 10 (approximately) so i built it up to lvl 7 creatures relatively fast.
So let's fast forward to the battle:

We agreed to meet and fight since it was around 2:00am and i get up early for work
We met on the grassy terrain somewhere on the middle of the map. My army (all upgraded ofc) - 750 gremlins, 450 gargoyles, 340 golems, 235 mages, 120 djins (lost about 40 of them total due to many stupid quick combats against strong neutrals but time was much more important so i sacrificed them as they were never a decisive force in Academy), 89 rakshasa and 43 titans.
His army was - 350 assasin, 240 furies, 330 minotaurs, 150 grims, 110 hydras, 67 matriarchs and 37 blackies.
I had minis on all creatures naturally and with my knowlidge they were ofc quite strong. I made several combinations but i mostly boosted initiative and defence since i lack it against Dungeons high attack. His stats were att 21, def 17, sp 21, kno 17 (i think).
I also had ring of celerity! (and a bunch of good artifacts but not the best)
And the battle was on. When i first saw the ATB bar i wasn't that frustrated. I could see that he had boosted his initiative as well, but my primary objective of course was to block that f**king grim raiders! His first attack was with furies against my djins. Lost 38 of them, no big deal. So with the rest of my djins i tried to block grims first turn. I placed them ok BUT it turned out that my friend had windstrider boots equipped for the battle (wtf?!) along with the aura of swiftness (he took leadership probably the first time in his life) and so he elegantly rode by my shocked djins who watched them ride by in disbelief
Of course the second those filthy lizard-riding-pointy-ears-morons pressed those spears against my "mighty" mechanical idiots aka titans, the whole stack was long gone (if i recall well luck triggered)! So naturally i snapped. Lost it. I was on the edge of tossing my chair in my friend's face or my monitor Somehow i calmed down and we continued our battle. Some rather unimportant units got their turn and it was time for my idiotic hero to show what he's made of. And he is made of dark magic. Puppet master time. Who else but grims (revenge is best served cold!) Although they were far from playing i couldn't help that devilish laughter inside awaiting my turn with them! BUT then my friend's blackies decided to intervene. They reached my gargoyles who were next to 89 rakshasas. Fire, chaos, smoke and screams have covered the battlefield. Somehow, whole 15 rakshasaa managed to escape the horrifying bad breath of those lizardly black monsters. And the fight could end right there but we wanted to make it official so we kept "fightin" (better to say, i kept feeding my troops to his predators). Even when i got to play with posessed grims who were kneeling before my hero awaiting for his evil instructions, and even though i turned them against their best friends blackies, damage was pretty low due to several stacks blocking the longer route to the impact. They killed maybe 5 black dragons, the rest of them retaliated with fury mutilating 40 grims. I forgot to mention that my stack of gremlins somehow murdered 5 black dragons but only from few tiles away, but that was it. So he lucky shot my 200 archmages, killed about 90 of them with matrons, minotaurs slowly but surely approached and finished the job. I have tried to act using MotW + resurrection, but bringing back 15 rakshasas from the other side just made furies more furious. They killed alot of them, while hydras finished the job. I was so pissed that i officialy stated not to play Academy against another human player until MAYBE the TotE and alt upgrades. Or maybe until i LEARN how to defeat any other faction with those ganja-smoking-elephant-riding bastards.
So theories are nice but making it happen in a real human vs human game is another thing. I am beginning to think Academy has serious issues even with more versed player then myself (regarding Academy only ofc).
They are way too weak. Too much depend on magic. Even with exp sorcery my hero had only few turns (it wouldn't bee too much different if i had Ihora, trust me).
Basically, maybe the outcome would have beed different if i properly blocked his grims, but i really didn't think that he will have +2 speed for the first time in his life and we play HoMM against one another for more than 6 years.

Soooo, any thoughts, disagreements with my conclusions,...anything?


P.S. So sorry about the long post BUT i had to write it since anger is still strong within me

Later my friends

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted July 24, 2007 12:11 PM

If you wish we can try playing that match with me using academy. Though not that late in the game
____________
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Map also hosted on Moddb

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HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted July 24, 2007 12:17 PM


Are you threatening me ?
Sure we can. As soon as you get an "a" on your exam

Seriously, anytime. I just have to tell my girlfriend i have some stuff to do, so tell me in advance She is probably gonna start throwing things at me for playing too much heroes

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted July 24, 2007 12:20 PM

Lol go easy on her - she does not understand Btw check your hc messenger, you missed something.
____________
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Map also hosted on Moddb

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HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted July 24, 2007 12:57 PM


I will try to be easy and thoughtful

HC msngr - checked&replied

See ya

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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted July 24, 2007 02:01 PM

I think the main issue is that you picked defense on your mini-arties. As you saw in that battle, defense did squat since your stacks pretty much died from one attack each, defense or not. For miniarties, I always pick attack and initiative (for gremlins I *might* sub HPs for attack). You mainly lost that fight because Warlocks are way more "might" than Wizards and your friend played to that advantage (building a might warlock).  

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted July 24, 2007 02:11 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 16:04, 24 Jul 2007.

I can give you some tips, things that I use when I play with Academy.

1. Choosing the right skills and abilities:

Enlightenment:
-Intelligence
-Scholar
-Arcane Intuition

Summoning Magic:
-Master of Conjuration
-Banish
-Wall of Fog

Sorcery:
-Arcane Training
-Counterspell
-Erratic Mana

Luck:
-Magic Resistance
-Resourcefulness
-Spoils of War
(Never choose Soldier's Luck with a Wizard!)

Light Magic:
-Master of Blessings
-Master of Wrath
-Master of Abjuration
or
-Master of Blessings
-Master of Abjuration
-Suppress Light

2. How to organize your creatures on tatics mode:
The way I organize them:

The Golem can be replaced with the Gargoyle, and the Djinn can be replaced with the Rakashsa Raja.
Remember to clear the area around the Mage. His shots will hurt your creatures as well, if you put them in front of him.
The Gremlin is well hidden this way. Even when the Golem goes to attack somewhere else, large creatures can't attack the Gremlin (Except of Fire Breath of Dragons)

3. How to use the creatures correctly:
Every creature in the army has a clear role on the battlefield.
The army works together as a group. The shooters are your main weapon. They should shot, and the most of the other creatures should defend them from attackers.

Tactical use of each creature:
Master Gremlins-Shooters. Defended by the Steel Golems, and might fix them when it's needed.
Gargoyles-defensive creatures, that usually used as assistant to the Rakshasa Raja against attackers of the shooters.
Steel Golems-Tanky units that protect mostly the Master Gremlins.
Arch Mages-Shooters with extremely powerful spells. Not protected at all, since their shots hit friendly units as well in their way.
Djinn Sultans-Offensive units with very low HP, that should be used quickly before they get killed.
Rakshasa Raja-Tanky units, attack enemies that come to attack the shooters.
Titans-Shooters, that use their large bodies to defend the Gremlins, and can be used as melee attackers, since they do full damage on melee attacks, as well.

I hope it helps you.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted July 24, 2007 02:17 PM

Hmm.. Most of the time
Enlightenment: Scholar,Arcane Intuition,
Summoning Magic: Master of Conjuration, Banish, Wall of Fog
Luck: Magic Resistance, Spoils of War

Are of limited to absolutely no use. Not all abilities are useful and the wizard needs to level up in many areas to be effective. Best to save them up for more important things.
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HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted July 24, 2007 02:27 PM
Edited by HEBPEME at 14:33, 24 Jul 2007.

@ TemjinGold:

I did make several mistakes, of course, but there was not much i could do.
I thought about it a little bit after the battle but eventually came to a conclusion that there was no possible way i could have won the battle and here is why:

You are partially right about the def, but i had initiative on all mini arties + ring of speed so it came to around 35% total (i think), but he had the ring of speed (+20%) and i think he had also ring of celerity (+10%) and several other arties boosting certain creature types ini. Plus dungeon has naturally higher ini with important units than academy and there it is. I couldn't possibly get to act faster with titans plus ATB bar randomness can be really iritating (and yesterday it was). If somehow i placed my djins better (in tactics phase) so that they have been able to strike grims and not only place them from the far left where they were to 2 tiles in front of grims, perhaps i would kill 40 of them and i would block them which is the only real role for djinn in game that late. Then he would lose his turn with them or he would attack djins maybe, but that wouldn't be too smart (i had HP,DEF and INI artifact on djins) because he certainly wouldn't be able to kill the remaining djins from one blow without jousting and he would lose some more due to retaliation. So, next he again plays with black dragons only this time he has to make a choice who should he strike. He would probably choose titans over rakshasas and then i would probably have time to cast phantom forces on rajas with hero. Or i would puppet his matrons or even grims, but never mind. Whatever i would have done, dungeon units just inflict too much damage to academy units. At this stadium of the game, i think that not even the most experienced academy player would be able to achieve victory
over dungeon. And let us not forget that my friend did not cast a single destructive spell (believe it or not, he was affraid of my magic mirror mostly, and he knew that i had spell damage reduction around 80% on minis) but turns out that he didn't even need to!!!
That was embarassing! He beat me with a warlock that didn't even cast. He only layed one frenzy that got mirrored to his minotaurs and they turned around and evaporazed the stack of assasins - that was damn funny Poor assasins didn't have the time to figure out why their friends have turned against them It was also unbelievable how often his luck triggered even though it was only 2 (due to my cursed ring).And i had luck 4 or 5 (depends on the creature) and barely saw too lucky rolls. Although, again, i think it wouldn't matter.
So, you get my point

And btw, ofc i equipped gremlins with +HP, +ATT and +INI mini That's why they killed 5 blackies and got to live to a second turn

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HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted July 24, 2007 02:38 PM


@GeenieLord:

I agree with you when it comes to positioning the troops. For the abilities, i don't fully agree. But i got impression from your post that you think i am a noob I am not that good of a academy player but of course i know all those things about units and stuff I was just trying to point out thier weekness against might oriented dungeon. And my friend just confirmed me over the phone a minute ago, that he didn't even take attack skill at all!! He said he thought about it alot, but figured that since academy has low defence and not too impressive HP, he realized he can take some more important skill against me. Turns out he was right.
Thx alot for your effort and advices

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted July 24, 2007 03:54 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 15:55, 24 Jul 2007.

Quote:

@GeenieLord:

I agree with you when it comes to positioning the troops. For the abilities, i don't fully agree. But i got impression from your post that you think i am a noob I am not that good of a academy player but of course i know all those things about units and stuff I was just trying to point out thier weekness against might oriented dungeon. And my friend just confirmed me over the phone a minute ago, that he didn't even take attack skill at all!! He said he thought about it alot, but figured that since academy has low defence and not too impressive HP, he realized he can take some more important skill against me. Turns out he was right.
Thx alot for your effort and advices

I actually think that Academy is great against Dungeon. But everyone is good with different thing.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 24, 2007 03:57 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 15:57, 24 Jul 2007.

First off, I have to point out that this could perfectly well have gone into the existing Academy Strategy thread.

But since the damage is done, let me leave a few comments. First off, I have to adress a couple of things in what GenieLord writes, particularly this statement:

Quote:
Gargoyles-offensive creatures, that usually used as assistant to the Rakshasa Raja against attackers of the shooters.


which to me is a plain absurd statement. Gargoyles as offensive creatures are about as effective as Peasants as tanks. Gargoyles should be used as tanks, possibly with Defensive + Armor Crushing minie arties to wear down creatures that attack them. I prefer to place them diagonally in front of my Mages, which blocks large creatures, but still leave Mages to use ranges attacks straight ahead - and use spells.

The main reason why you lost is probably that when you come to late game, Might dominates Magic, and Dungeon is a better Might faction than Academy is, even with minies. Had you attacked him much earlier in the game, you would almost certainly have gotten the upper hand with the combination of Dark + Light Magic.

Also notice that his stats were much more might oriented than yours. In fact, his Attack which is equal to Spell Power is quite unusual, and even if he didn't take the Attack skill, he certainly put something into boosting this value, where Warlocks would normally focus on Spell Power (which would turn out less usefull in late battle). With Might skills like Leadership and Luck, he was probably much better prepared than you.

Also, you must have been able to block his Grims by placing Djinns right in front of them - unless there were 3 empty spaces next to them? Normally, you can block them like either of these:

X       X
X        
GG      GGDD
GGDD    GGDD
  DD
        X
X       X
X


Only if he has 3 spaces open around his Grimms (either 3 on one side or 2 on one side and 1 on other) will he be able to go around your Djinns. Of course, your Djinns will die, but Frenzy will work well on Grimms before the act second time.
____________
What will happen now?

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted July 24, 2007 04:03 PM

Quote:
First off, I have to point out that this could perfectly well have gone into the existing Academy Strategy thread.

But since the damage is done, let me leave a few comments. First off, I have to adress a couple of things in what GenieLord writes, particularly this statement:

Quote:
Gargoyles-offensive creatures, that usually used as assistant to the Rakshasa Raja against attackers of the shooters.


which to me is a plain absurd statement. Gargoyles as offensive creatures are about as effective as Peasants as tanks. Gargoyles should be used as tanks, possibly with Defensive + Armor Crushing minie arties to wear down creatures that attack them. I prefer to place them diagonally in front of my Mages, which blocks large creatures, but still leave Mages to use ranges attacks straight ahead - and use spells.

I just confused between offensive and defensive.
There's no need to execute me for that.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 24, 2007 05:30 PM

Quote:
I just confused between offensive and defensive.
There's no need to execute me for that.


Oh ok, I'm more relieved then.
____________
What will happen now?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 24, 2007 05:53 PM

Academy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dungeon


just my 2cents.

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HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted July 24, 2007 06:30 PM


@Alcibiades:

Sure i could have blocked grims better, but since my djins were far left and his grims far right, i couldn't reach the tile in front of them,so i placed them on the tiles that grims would have to go around and while doing so, they would normally run out of movement. But he had +2 speed and that was exactly how much he needed to get to my titans and sweep them away.
You are probably right about might prevailing over magic in the late stages except, maybe, for destructive magic used by warlock. Several times while playing as a warlock, my spells did enormous damage that i had to take screenshots in order to be sure that i wasn't dreaming hehe

Anyways, this post might belong to academy advanced strategies, but with all due respect, this thread had nothing to do with any strategy. I just opened my soul ,told a story about the clash of two huge armies and about the disadvantage of one of them. My frustration and anger do not belong to advanced strategies


P.S. Next time, i am rushing with academy for two reasons: first to try to win IF and while academy still has that option and second - to end the game as soon as i can, cuz i couldn't handle another marathon that leads to my destruction

Cheers

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted July 25, 2007 05:15 AM

Lucky Raiders..ugh...what can you do?  Luck is brutally effective.  Raiders are brutally effective.  +2 Creature speed for Dungeon in this battle is awesome.  1st turn Furies...Raiders and Blackies hitting whatever they want.

What would help Academy in this case?  Hero knowledge and power of arties doesn't seem to scale as well as Ubi thought it would.  Dunno.  Do you sac an entire category of magic and get you some defense?  What else can you do to blunt the obvious attack and damage advantage in this fight?

You had an obvious numerical advantage that should've worked to your advantage.  MotW and Phantom Forces won't do squat if all you've got is 15 of your level 6s to do your fighting.  

Does Academy just suck that bad?  I assumed that it would have been the opposite; that with the mini arties your creatures should be stomping the opposition what with +30% initiative and all the other trimmings.

____________

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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted July 25, 2007 05:49 AM

Quote:
@ TemjinGold:

I did make several mistakes, of course, but there was not much i could do.
I thought about it a little bit after the battle but eventually came to a conclusion that there was no possible way i could have won the battle and here is why:

You are partially right about the def, but i had initiative on all mini arties + ring of speed so it came to around 35% total (i think), but he had the ring of speed (+20%) and i think he had also ring of celerity (+10%) and several other arties boosting certain creature types ini. Plus dungeon has naturally higher ini with important units than academy and there it is. I couldn't possibly get to act faster with titans plus ATB bar randomness can be really iritating (and yesterday it was). If somehow i placed my djins better (in tactics phase) so that they have been able to strike grims and not only place them from the far left where they were to 2 tiles in front of grims, perhaps i would kill 40 of them and i would block them which is the only real role for djinn in game that late. Then he would lose his turn with them or he would attack djins maybe, but that wouldn't be too smart (i had HP,DEF and INI artifact on djins) because he certainly wouldn't be able to kill the remaining djins from one blow without jousting and he would lose some more due to retaliation. So, next he again plays with black dragons only this time he has to make a choice who should he strike. He would probably choose titans over rakshasas and then i would probably have time to cast phantom forces on rajas with hero. Or i would puppet his matrons or even grims, but never mind. Whatever i would have done, dungeon units just inflict too much damage to academy units. At this stadium of the game, i think that not even the most experienced academy player would be able to achieve victory
over dungeon. And let us not forget that my friend did not cast a single destructive spell (believe it or not, he was affraid of my magic mirror mostly, and he knew that i had spell damage reduction around 80% on minis) but turns out that he didn't even need to!!!
That was embarassing! He beat me with a warlock that didn't even cast. He only layed one frenzy that got mirrored to his minotaurs and they turned around and evaporazed the stack of assasins - that was damn funny Poor assasins didn't have the time to figure out why their friends have turned against them It was also unbelievable how often his luck triggered even though it was only 2 (due to my cursed ring).And i had luck 4 or 5 (depends on the creature) and barely saw too lucky rolls. Although, again, i think it wouldn't matter.
So, you get my point

And btw, ofc i equipped gremlins with +HP, +ATT and +INI mini That's why they killed 5 blackies and got to live to a second turn


I understand that you couldn't have won that fight. What I meant was that you picked a tree that was essentially dead weight (which doesn't help it). The real problem was the fact that you tried to win through might. Warlocks get a large portion of their levelups in Attack but Wizards get nearly all of their levelups in Spellpower/Knowledge. Meaning if you try to fight him mainly with might, you will simply lose due to the levelup situation. All other things equal, might tends to hold an advantage in long games (his blackies extend that advantage as your spells don't work on it) while magic has an easier time gaining the upper hand in shorter games.

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HEBPEME
HEBPEME


Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
posted July 26, 2007 09:24 AM


@TemjinGold:

You are right. But you have to agree that i didn't have much choice. If i was to rely on magic mostly (i'm just speaking about this particular fight, not in general) i would have lost the same way and here is why: frenzy would be useless considering grims positioning after the first attack. The closest unit would be mine so - no reason to do that. It was already too late for mass slow since he killed most of my important units in one blow. So i figured out that i needed more creatures FAST and i puppeted his grims That seemed like the most logical solution. I could have tried with the phantom forces but who to phantom? My titans dead, only 15 rakshasas and around 100 archmages that wouldn't inflict too much damage. Plus he could easily destroy the phantom stack with his hero using magic as there was no better thing for his hero to do anyway. I think that i had to concentrate on rushing him maybe or to get a destructive magic instead of summoning along, of course, with better placement of creatures before combat. But it is incredible how lucky my friend ALWAYS is. I usually jump from happiness when i find ring of celerity, while he has the ring of speed + celerity 90% of the time. Also, i am the one beeing offered the ring against the word of light in the artifact merchant and he gets the cursed ring or the ring of the broken will , and so on and so on...
But the damage is done, we started a new game yesterday. Since we always play random factions (it's more fun that way), i got Haven and he got Academy So it's payback time
I will inform people about my overwhelming victory over his academic ass

Cheers

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted July 26, 2007 09:37 AM

Make sure you don't lose, academy is good
____________
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Map also hosted on Moddb

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