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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted October 29, 2001 09:56 AM |
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Repeating History
Watching this board and all the people who post in it rant about Homm4 has kinda been funny over the last few months. And I've watched people rant over Homm3 for god knows how long now. It's gotten me thinking about the future of the board and what sort of stuff I'm going to be reading when HoMM4 comes out.
Will it be the same old tired stuff?
Will people be complaining about a new method of hit and run or the advantage that Preserve has over other towns? Are they going to be discussing the lameness/importance of secondary skills in H4 just as it was during the days of H3?
The Altar of Wishes will always be wishing. If not about expansion packs, then about Homm5. And I have no doubt that once people start talking about expansions, then we're going to be seeing the same old rehashed ideas that we've been seeing for months and months. People are going to be talking about Ice Towns again and Egyptian towns and creatures to include.
Are we going to repeat history? Are we doomed to discuss the same things about the same game for an eternity?
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UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
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posted October 29, 2001 01:23 PM |
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Offtopic: Moderator's note
This post is a bit off the stated topic of discussion for this forum, namely Heroes 4 wishes, information, speculation, etc. Normally I would move it over to the Tavern. However, I am interested in how the regular posters to the Altar may reply to this, since it concerns this particular corner of HC and no other.
Accordingly, this thread will stay over here on the Altar a bit until it drops off into the sunset. (The sunset being roughly defined as Page 3)
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted October 29, 2001 01:31 PM |
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Well tell me Haak, how many times can you wish for the same thing in the same game?
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted October 29, 2001 06:11 PM |
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I feel urge to response...
This thread is maybe little bit OFFTOPIC but anyways...
Altar is for wishing and I'm the genie (LOL)
Have anyone really heard about Electronic Arts Sports series? Like NHL 2001 and FIFA series?...
Every freaking year EA comes up with new game into series. NHL game comes in September when NHL (national hockey league) starts in North America. Yes...every year a new sequel. What this means? Entirely new game every time?
Of course not but like movie sequels these games have same kind of plot every year and only graphics and some details are different.
Gameplay has gone through some major editing in few times. But this has usually meant that game has gone from one extreme to other. This is very true especially with NHL series which I really like. Unfortunately there aren't any other hockey games around or at least really serious ones so EA doesn't face any real competition.
EA has once give out three soccer games in span of one year. One in fall then next in spring and final in the summer. Crazy? Yes. And gameplay changes were minimal but all those games were sold many games.
I have been also in many messageboards about these EA games. Mostly about NHL and FIFA series. Believe it or not but same discussions are gone through every freaking year. Common questions are:
What is wrong with this years game?
What was wrong with last years game?
What should be in the next years game?
And the list goes on and one...
This is kinda funny thing especially with NHL series because there have been some good editors out which helps you edit player data and that way allow gameplay changes little. Everyyear someone has find new way editing the game and everybody has their view how it should be edited. This discussion goes forever without any remorse towards other posters. Also it's funny that every time everybody gets partly frustrated because there are some things so badly in the game and something so close being good that it's really hurting. Of course problems change each year from one to another.
Tell you the truth that same thing happens with real NHL season. Who will be this years champ? And stuff like that are discussed every year.
So I believe the same goes with future HoMM's. Everybody is excited about new game and want their opinion about it. Somebody isn't happy how the game is and comes to complain. It's about cycle which is important in peoples lives. There are some wishes that people always have. Maybe someone want to change HoMM entirely game to realtime and stuff like that. There are always also "hardcore-war-strategists" (Monster word) that want game have more realism and more detail.
People need to share their experience about the game and tell what they expect from future products. I think it's essential for humans that we share our feelings.
So there will be those egyptian and oriental towns always be wished. Some wishes change some don't. Just like in life in overall.
Some things change....some things never change.
Or at least it looks like that to us.
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 29, 2001 09:42 PM |
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Edited By: Djive on 29 Oct 2001
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When it comes to rants I'm sure it will be the old tiring stuff. When it comes to rants on popular heroes subjects I don't see any chance of change at all. Forums like this with new members coming in all the time are doomed to suffer from the standard rants from time to time.
Overall the discussion will be the same, but with new names for skills and attributes since the game has changed. There will be some new topics for heroes 4. The new way of handling heroes is sure to be one of the topics being discussed.
You will also see discussions like: "Everybody builds for Magi instead of Gold Golem because Gold Golems are useless." Basically, we will probably see long discussions telling us there's really only one alternative in how to build our level 2, 3 and 4 buildings because one creature is much better than the other.
Lameness of secondary skills will not be as abundant since you now select 4 skills when you open a new Primary skill. This changes game play. People will still say that Navigation is bad as a secondary on non-water maps, and if Navigation is required as a prerequiste for other skills people will complain about that. All in all the subject will reappear.
For the towns, I believe there's not going to be any new towns. It's as difficult to add new towns in heroes 4 as introducing a new colour in Magic the Gathering. There's an opening for a new Might town in the Stronghold style but with something else than the Breeding Pit. But for Magic towns they'll probably have 5 new towns or they'll ruin the symmetry of the game and probably cause an outcry. Five new towns in an expansion pack?? I think not.
Quote:
Are we going to repeat history? Are we doomed to discuss the same things about the same game for an eternity?
Yes. This is a good summary of wait awaits us.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted October 30, 2001 08:17 AM |
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Ice Town? What a cool idea.
I bet we could get alot of interest in discussing that...
Thanks for the great original idea!
Let's go start a thread...
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted October 30, 2001 08:22 AM |
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Yes...
We could have an icequeen there...
That would be really COOL!
It's massive attack would destroy EVERYTHING.
WOW!
But no humans to that town. Humans suck!
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted October 30, 2001 08:25 AM |
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Do we have geniunely new things to talk about? I'm failing to see hotly contested issues once HoMM4 is released simply because there are less towns and less creatures and the basics of the game appear to be unchanged. Which is of course to be expected with the release of a fourth installment of a series. But Magic has become pretty stale as a card game. There are only so many different ways you can lay down the same cards.
The failure to add diversity to the game and indeed reel in ideas for the sake of balance makes things less contentious. If things are PERFECT, will people argue about what's better than what? The logical answer goes to everything being balanced, so any 'whats better' threads that may be started in the future run dangerously close to being null and void even before someone has even thought of them!
I am a firm believer that balance over diversity is a discussion killer. I think that balance of the game overall needs to be balanced with diversity itself. How many of you dislike the fact that Angels are regarded as the most powerful level 7 unit in HoMM3?
I know I sure do! And nothing spurs people to greater achievement than thinking of themselves as the underdog and generating discussion and argument about things which have been created as unequal. Nothing more satisfying that killing a stack of archs with a stack of hydras and some good spells.
People find a way to overcome inbalance through use of diversity and these methods ultimately lead to the kind of discussions that about HoMM3 with Hit and Run, Implosion, etc etc.
Everybody who seems to post in the Altar of Wishes and who greedily awaits the release of HoMM4 also despise ToH maps for their perfection and dedication to balance.
I for one, know exactly how boring balance can be.
Sometimes its good to be a little lopsided. If everything in HoMM4 was perfectly balanced then there'd be no real need for conflicting ideas and I thought that conflict of opinions was what this board was really all about.
*smile*
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted October 30, 2001 12:53 PM |
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Are you sure?
That future HoMMs will be perfectly balanced?
I think not.
There are always some strategies or creatures that are seen better than others.
There will be newcomers who have new views and also I think HoMMIV will be much more controversial than example HoMM3 was compared to HoMM2.
There will be those same wishes again but I think only limits are that example heroes can now fight. I can bet some people say it's not good they fight...they are too weak/powerful. Things like that will come up.
HoMMIV is completely new game. Period.
But I think most of the discussions will be "old" for some of us who have been there and done that. I remember being speaking about HoMM3 when it was coming and people talked about the same issues like those.
I believe this same "repeating history" thread was there too as topic.
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 30, 2001 10:44 PM |
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overall I have to agree with Sha_Men but a few comments of my own.
"The failure to add diversity to the game and indeed reel in ideas for the sake of balance makes things less contentious."
I believe that almost every change they've made makes the game MORE difficult to balance. These things include:
- Less levels per castle.
- Less types of castles.
- Unique spells for each school.
- Heroes fighting in combats.
IMO the fact that they have reduced diversity makes the game more difficult to balance. (The less you have to pick from the more balanced the choices have to be.)
"How many of you dislike the fact that Angels are regarded as the most powerful level 7 unit in HoMM3?"
Well, if you can get them by week 1 and still have the chance to buy out all the troops, then of course Angels will come out on top. On resource poor maps and Impossible difficulty it will take you a very long time to get the Angel dwelling. That kind of map suits castles that doesn't require 12 of each precious resource to be able to build a level 7 building. Not to mention the cash.
For the level 7 creatures Devils, Hydras and Behemoth are cheaper and less powerful, but in return you're likely to be able to build their dwelling 1-2 weeks sooner on some maps.
This is not different from Heroes 2 . It's a lot easier to get Cyclops and Paladins than Black Dragons and Titans. On the other hand: when the opponent has built the BD dwelling, you'd better stand outside the castle with an army ready to take out the warlock or you'll soon be in serious trouble.
"I for one, know exactly how boring balance can be."
As you said there's a balance between diversity and balance. On the other hand sometimes diversites promotes balance in itself.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 03, 2001 01:59 PM |
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Quote:
Are we going to repeat history? Are we doomed to discuss the same things about the same game for an eternity?
eh? we nearly already are theres loads of threads discussing similar ideas, wishes and methods,and theres a good reason for this since theres only a few things to talk about in a game.
Its obvious we are going to discuss nearly the exact same things when 4 comes out as with heroes 3. Whats the best creature,hero,skill,team,artifact,way of winning with a team,maps,spell,etc etc etc etc
With any game your restricted to what you can talk about and the restriction is the game.
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted November 03, 2001 02:11 PM |
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LOL...or arachnid in your case...
Quote:
With any game your restricted to what you can talk about and the restriction is the game.
It's like this:
"With any joke your restricted to what you can talk about and the restriction is the other one's message."
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 03, 2001 03:19 PM |
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Everyone needs there limits shamen.
Ive dug myself into a happy little rut in this community and ill be damned if im going hoist myself out of it!
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted November 03, 2001 10:43 PM |
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Sure, some discussions will repeat themselves, but truly, human nature is the only thing that doesn't change; technology and ideas do. Therefore, after playing Heroes IV, I'm sure that people will get new ideas for what they want, and old opinions about things(e.g. Dragon Golem) might be changed. We are certainly not doomed to a cycle of redundancy.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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