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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Raze Objects on the Map (NOT Towns!)
Thread: Raze Objects on the Map (NOT Towns!)
Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 29, 2001 05:54 PM

Raze Objects on the Map (NOT Towns!)

So many threads about razing towns... And I have posted in one of them - "Raize Towns". There I gave an idea from Age of Wonders but no one paid attention to that. Maybe if I explain the idea, you will understand what I mean.
Your hero captures a mine. But then you see an enemy hero, much stronger than yours. It's sure that he will regain the mine. What do you do? Raze the mine so the enemy can't gain resources from it!
But I don't talk only about mines. Other examples - Windmills, Water Wheels, Mystical Gardens, Trading Posts...
One good example could be the Monolith. Imagine that the only way to reach the enemy is to go through a monolith. You do that with a strong hero and after that raze the monolith so that the enemy can't reach you... Maybe the same can be done for the Subterranean gates. I don't know if objects such as Magic Wells, Trees of Knowledge or Star Axes should be able to be razed but it won't be so bad. Still, I think the Obelisks had better not be destructable... This would be really unfair esrecially if the task is to find the Grail...
Buildings that increase the Morale and the Luck should not be razed - no point in doing this since you would like to use them again.
Maybe the Redwood Observatory and the Pillar of Fire should also be destructable - this way you prevent your enemy from seeing the surrounding area.
About buildings like the Naga Bank - no point in razing them because they give you benefit only the first time.
Creature dwellings - well, why would you destroy them? Except when you don't want the creatures but also don't want the enemy to have them. OK, maybe they should be also destructable.
The shrines that give you spells could be also razed - you surely don't want your enemies to learn spells.
Other buildings... I think these were the most important.
Now we come to the problem - how can a razed object on the map be restored? I think of several ways of restoring the buildings:
1-a special unit. Like in Age of Wonders - the Builder. The unit should be neutral and recruited in a special dwelling. The problems are: it probably won't fit in the game and more important - what will happen if you raze the building for that unit???
2-a special skill. There is no such skill in Heroes 4 but what about an expansion? As I suggested for the towns, such a skill could be named Rebuilding. But anyway, it shouldn't be the only way of restoring a building.
3-a special artifact. The same as the skill - even if available, it shouldn't be the only way to restore the razed building.
4-resources. It will cost you a big amount of gold and maybe other resources. Every object will have a different cost.
This is my humble idea. As you see, there is point in razing objects on the map as well as razing towns. But I think if objects are destructable, very probably towns will also be. Anyway, I want to know if you agree with the idea or not...
P.S. Now I think of this - should Garrisons and Keymaster Tents be razed? What about the new Blacksmith in Heroes 4? I want your opinion.

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darkspirit
darkspirit


Famous Hero
aka Zutus
posted October 29, 2001 05:58 PM

I don't think so, do you like the look of an empty map?
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Young moles appear to be in full dispersal which means there are more moles per acre than at any other time of the year

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AncientOne
AncientOne


Hired Hero
posted October 29, 2001 08:03 PM

I think it's reasonable to be able to raize things... but I (of course) have a few details I'd like to mention.

First, you shouldn't be able to raize something unless you can occupy it. A first level hero with a stack of Pixies couldn't recruit Red Dragons, let alone drive them away and burn down their home.

Second, I think you should be able to raize towns. If you're going to be willing to burn down a Halfling Cottage or a Minotaur Maze, then you're probably going to be willing to burn down a larger population, as well.

Third, I think that rebuilding should be an option. Towns would be rebuilt, but wouldn't have all the structures they'd had. Creature dwelling would be rebuilt, but wouldn't have critters available immediately. Mines could be re-opened at normal efficiency. Of course, the repairs to rebuild something would be expensive... but I think it should be possible.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 29, 2001 08:17 PM

"Your hero captures a mine. But then you see an enemy hero, much stronger than yours. It's sure that he will regain the mine. What do you do? Raze the mine so the enemy can't gain resources from it!"

No. You're not meant to do this. There was a spell in Heroes 2 "Haunt" which may be considered. I don't really know the effect, expect that Mine production ceased. If the opponent defeated the ghosts, they can restore production. You are however, not supposed to change the landscape. I prefer this way of making structures (temporarily)inaccessible instead. (And this could be expanded to other types of objects. If places are haunted the enmy can't send a single halfling to retake it so this would be a useful strategy.)

"But I don't talk only about mines. Other examples - Windmills, Water Wheels, Mystical Gardens, Trading Posts..."

No. I don't think so. Imagine what happens if an enemy sends in a few stealth Heroes into your teritory and start destroying everything. Defending your towns from such a menance is Ok, but you just can't defend every adventure object against plundering. The real use for what you're asking is sabotage from the outside.

If you feel you have to destroy resources for any other reason it likely means you've lost the game and the only effect you get is that the enemy hero goes for your army. (They cold have went for the mine/waterwheel/windmill instead but if you've destroyed it they'll certainly go for your heroes.)

"One good example could be the Monolith. Imagine that the only way to reach the enemy is to go through a monolith."

No monlith's are not meant to be destroyed. This would destroy their purpose on a lot of maps. Many maps will sport quests and needs a transportation mechanism to an area which they know cannot be reached in any other way. If you build a map around this, then the monlith really must be indestructible. And the same goes for subterranean gates since they're often used in the same way.

"I don't know if objects such as Magic Wells, Trees of Knowledge or Star Axes should be able to be razed but it won't be so bad."

No. You want to give bonuses to heroes for visitng new areas so these should also stay.

"Maybe the Redwood Observatory and the Pillar of Fire should also be destructable - this way you prevent your enemy from seeing the surrounding area."

"The shrines that give you spells could be also razed - you surely don't want your enemies to learn spells."

=> Yeah, but mapmakers could often use these for spells they want your hero to learn at a certain point. If the AI destroys the shrine the game has ruined the map design. Besides you want the Shrine for your other heroes (scholar seems to be gone as an ability.)

1-a special unit. Like in Age of Wonders - the Builder. The unit should be neutral and recruited in a special dwelling. The problems are: it probably won't fit in the game and more important - what will happen if you raze the building for that unit???

=> But surely building that particular building must be doable without the Builder.
=> Anyway, this doesn't feel like Heroes.

2-a special skill. There is no such skill in Heroes 4 but what about an expansion? As I suggested for the towns, such a skill could be named Rebuilding. But anyway, it shouldn't be the only way of restoring a building.

=> They'll need to introduce anew primary skill and three secondaries for this. I somehow doubt they'll do that.

3-a special artifact. The same as the skill - even if available, it shouldn't be the only way to restore the razed building.

=> Yes.

4-resources. It will cost you a big amount of gold and maybe other resources. Every object will have a different cost.

=> This would be doable. One thing about destroying objects. To even consider destroying an object you would have to take an army to it and break it. However, doing this delays your escape from the strong hero you were talking about. And seeing a ruined mine there's no doubt what that army will move for. So basically, ruining the mine just makes it all that more likely that the enemy will not care about flagging the structure, but will chase you down as the first priority. If for nothing else to prevent you from destroying anything else.

"P.S. Now I think of this - should Garrisons and Keymaster Tents be razed? What about the new Blacksmith in Heroes 4? I want your opinion."

No. Garrisons are just used as a place-holder for troops to guard an entrance. Keymaster tents are for all players. They're not meant to be raised either.

Also if you keep destroying all these things the one responsible for the destruction should be penalized further. The dwellings destroyed are for the good of the people, not specifically the players but the whole country. In other words, your Heroes should receive penalties for the bad reputation all this looting and razing. And hrmm.... shouldn't they loose the title of Hero and be called Villains after such shameful acts?

There's already a number of buildings which can be visited only once, and this is a form of "making unusable" for opponent. I believe this should be kept on a low level.

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UnkaHaakon
UnkaHaakon


Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
posted October 30, 2001 10:45 AM

By a curious coincidence, I was goofing around with Warlords II this evening, and got a quest to raze an enemy site (one of his ports). Although this gained me the benefits of the quest, it also caused the unaligned AI players to regard me with a high degree of suspicion. I then took the town the port served, and rebuilt the port to get its advantages. Nothing terribly unbalancing there, but my diplomatic stock still plummetted.

Perhaps some map structures could be able to be destroyed, and also rebuilt, for a suitably hefty fee? And with suitable penalties for said destruction, such as lowered luck or morale in the nexr combat? Or, if a creature dwelling is destroyed, all wandering stacks of that creature immediately become 'Savage' in revenge. I don't think every map structure should be able to be razed, but a little pillaging could be fun now and then. Of course, if this option became reality, you can bet I'd want a pretty darn good Scouting specialist patrolling my lands with enough troops to take out that Stealthed yutz who'd be running around knocking off my mines. And a Stealthed yutz of my own to return the favor.
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"

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Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 30, 2001 11:31 AM

Well, this is an important discussion. The spell Haunt can really be a solution. But the problem is that if you cast it and no one attacks the mine, the creatures that haunt the mine will become too many... This way even you won't be able to regain the mine if you decide that you need it.
By the way, Djive, I think that you haven't understood well my thoughts. You say that if the enemy razes a Monolith or a Subterranean gate and you must go through it, the game will be spoilt. You are wrong. If they raze the Monolith and you have to use it... you will just repair it! See, when you raze a structure it remains but is unusable. The destroying is meant not to be forever, it just makes you reconstruct the building and thus lose resources if you don't have a special unit/skill/artifact... or even a spell. What about an adventure spell that reconstructs a razed building? Of course, it will require a lot of spell points. Anyway, my idea is that razing just makes difficulties for the enemies.
Now I see that there is really no point in razing Mystical Gardens and Windmills. Who will want to rebuild them for a small bonus? But it's not the same with the mines, Monoliths, Library of Enlightenment (which is really worth reconstructing)...
Razing may be suitable for a definite moment when you need to prevent the enemy from getting benefits and after you control the area you may want to rebuild the structure for your own needs... So this is a temporary strategy. But it is a strategy that can make the game more interesting.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 30, 2001 12:51 PM

"By the way, Djive, I think that you haven't understood well my thoughts. You say that if the enemy razes a Monolith or a Subterranean gate and you must go through it, the game will be spoilt. You are wrong. If they raze the Monolith and you have to use it... you will just repair it!"

Sure, but if you can repair a ruined building then you would also be able to construct a new one. So why would you need to go to the Monolith to repair it when you should be able to make a new one beside your Capitol and be able to protect it.

You could of course say that you wouldn't be able to create new dwellings/structures on the adventure map, but if you have the technology to do it then what's there really to stop you from doing it?

"Now I see that there is really no point in razing Mystical Gardens and Windmills. Who will want to rebuild them for a small bonus? But it's not the same with the mines, Monoliths, Library of Enlightenment (which is really worth reconstructing)..."

Actually, there would be a point in destroying these. I believe it was said somewhere that once flagged they would produce resources weekly, without you having to visit it.

My opinion of LoE destruction:
Any player who destroys a Library of Enlightment should be declared a Traitor and have a 100,000 Gold warrant on his head, and 10,000 Gold for the head of any hero belonging to that player. Anyway, that's my feeling on the subject.
(I wonder what a LoE in heroes 4 would do. No primary skills to increase any more.)

When it comes to Monoliths I don't think there will be the same outcry from the population, though I believe that this structure should not be easily destroyed, and not easily reconstructed either. (You'd probably need a high level spell to do either.)

"Razing may be suitable for a definite moment when you need to prevent the enemy from getting benefits and after you control the area you may want to rebuild the structure for your own needs... So this is a temporary strategy. But it is a strategy that can make the game more interesting."

You could allow razing but it should have its price. UnkaHaakon made some suggestions. Generally, any act of destruction should have some repercussions for the perpertrator.

When it comes to mines, there will perhaps be an option to abandon the mine. This would mean that the opponent would have to reopen it, if production is to be resumed. I believe 3DO has already hinted that mines will start as abandoned and may possibly run out of resources so this would be possible for mines. (And abandoning a Mine could be done without repercussions.)

Wouldn't all this razing and constructing slow down game-play?

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Sha_Men
Sha_Men


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
posted October 30, 2001 01:23 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 16:52, 19 Jan 2008.

I think...

That raizing could be turned off from mapeditor...
That way you couldn't destroy certain things in certains maps.
Also I think that raizing some objects should be obsolete in first place...Example monoliths could be protected with magic.

Then comes the idea that one could himself put "Magic ward" there to protect some buildings. There could be spell for it. Of course it could be taken off through powerful magic...


Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
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