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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Factions' Creeping Potential
Thread: Factions' Creeping Potential This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted September 04, 2007 05:29 PM

Quote:
I don't agree.

There's more than enough people who enjoy a challenge and will play the map the way it is intended to be played. Kids of 11 years old are the ones who cheat to make themselves feel powerfull, not 19+ people
Well, when marksmen had the training thing, it was kinda like a bug.

Everyone kept playing with them. You know why? 'cause they wanted to be powerful. And they knew they were imba (and likewise some kind of cheat).

Now that a patch is out to correct that, people have stopped by 'force'. But they couldn't stop before, because they were to blind to win.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 04, 2007 05:40 PM
Edited by Elvin at 17:43, 04 Sep 2007.

@TheDeath
It's not exactly like a high score. Some factions are harder to defeat specific neutrals but in a large map things are pretty much balanced because you get something of each case. Not all maps can be rushed and not all rushes are successful.

Here I am just figuring out how strong a faction can be in the first 2 weeks. Not against another faction, against neutrals which is diametrically different. If you check it a bit magic factions have an easier earlygame but later their advantage begins to wear off so it kind balances off in the long run. No need to play epic maps nor rushing ones, it's the large size that offers the best games. Those are the ones I play.

But I'm not discussing the balance, just showing the potential. Many people out there are like academy/inferno/sylvan suxxors. Also knowing what is possible may give the incentive to try it yourself and improve your gaming skills.

So far do you agree with what you see, have you perhaps done something better or used a more efficient way?
Added the rest of fortress.

Edit: When I add all towns I'll post some conclusions of my own and it will be clearer.
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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted September 04, 2007 05:52 PM

I can only say: He did it again. Good stuff Elvin...
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 04, 2007 05:58 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 18:18, 04 Sep 2007.

Hyhy nice topic I could give my version of fortress coz i like it very much.

Here it is.

Lvl 1 kill with shieldguards

Lvl 2 kill with shieldguards

Lvl 3 kill with shieldguards

Lvl 4 kill with shieldguards

Lvl 5 kill with shieldguards

Lvl 6 kill with shieldguards

Lvl 7 kill with shieldguards


Occasionally you may add skirmishers if you fight against slow pokes like sqires or so. To kill high lvls use rune of ressurection and ressurection spell. Fight is a litle bit long but with Ingvar and hundred of dwarfs i have killed over 30 black dragons week 2

Basically i could give simmilar advice for warlocks with changing shieldguards for scouts and ressurection spell for fireball spell.
and killing slow pokes with furies but i guess everybody knows that by now.

With sylvan killing slow pokes can be done with single sprite. I did this first game i was playing sylvan in toh and it took like 30 min to kill horde of squires so you better use full stack of sprites

I dunno any decent creeping strategy for inferno. I always use war machines since demonlords got very strong ballista and i want it anyway.

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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted September 04, 2007 05:59 PM

Quote:

Fight is a litle bit long but with Ingvar and hundred of dwarfs i have killed over 30 black dragons week 2



If that is true, I bow to you - I shall follow you to the end of everything... You are truely powerful


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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted September 04, 2007 06:08 PM

Gotta love this tactic
Quote:
Lvl 1 kill with shieldguards

Lvl 2 kill with shieldguards

Lvl 3 kill with shieldguards

Lvl 4 kill with shieldguards

Lvl 5 kill with shieldguards

Lvl 6 kill with shieldguards

Lvl 7 kill with shieldguards


Inferno was one of my favorites, because it was hard to creep, and it required a lot of reloads to see the holes and eventual 'escape' from the AI.

I was a hard-core Heroes gamer before, I tried a lot of combinations with neutrals, fought with them to see and discover holes in the AI. I've done a lot of reloads for this 'training'. I've even defeated many Paladins in week 2, with only Fire Trap and some Treant meatshields (yep true). I abused the game a lot.

Now I look at myself, and I realize what I really was doing, and how silly the 1 sprite vs infinity zombies tactic is. Not only that, but all other 'records' so to speak.

"x defeated paladins in week 2 with only treants and Fire trap!"
"y defeated the campaign in 5 seconds"

and stuff like that.

Elvin, I am not talking about your specific list, but about creeping in general, and how any faction can see a lot of 'potential' from simple abuses with ANY hero. I like your list as it doesn't state too-hard-core abuses like the Fire trap thing, but more 'on-the-ground' creeping stuff. For me, it was one of the most interesting 'creeping tactic' threads around lately

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phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted September 04, 2007 06:44 PM

But the playing field is even.

Because by now everyone knows all the tricks.

In my few online games it has come down to human vs. human strategy.  The battle really could go either way.  Barring 1 or 2 games where I simply couldn't get the proper resources.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 04, 2007 10:26 PM
Edited by Elvin at 00:14, 05 Sep 2007.

Quote:
I like your list as it doesn't state too-hard-core abuses like the Fire trap thing, but more 'on-the-ground' creeping stuff. For me, it was one of the most interesting 'creeping tactic' threads around lately

Sure it does I just don't mention firetrap all over As for abuses take another look, inferno is up
And thanks.

Edit: Did the last part. I should follow with an analysis but do not expect it before Thursday as tomorrow I have too much studying to do.
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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted September 05, 2007 01:33 AM
Edited by Azagal at 01:43, 05 Sep 2007.

Just read the inferno part... Well it certainly is effective but kind of skill dependant as you said. I mean any faction gets a mayor aid trough War Machines creeping. It most definetly helps Inferno a whole lot with > tier 4, but from my experience > tier 4 are also manageable with the inferno units. Of course you are right when you say that the way you handle it you'll save many ressources needed for Ceberi/Nightmares/Misstresses.

Quote:
Mind you I'm not saying it takes no brains to imagine ways to exploit AI , my point is that in most cases it isn't what one might call strategy.

Quote:
And don't worry I agree about what you say.. There is a reason I don't particularly like inferno.


Excuse me? Maybe I understood you guys wrong but name me one faction that creeps without exploiting the AI... What is wrong with gating+mark of the dammend?If that isn't considered "strategy" then I don't see how Marksmen+peasent stacks = precice shot is "strategy".

I'm really not the guy who likes exploting the AI, honestly. I like games without cheap tricks. I agree with most of the things TheDeath said but I just find it kind of unfair to say that Inferno depends on abusing the AI or only creeps efficently with exploiting the AI.

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dschingi
dschingi


Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
posted September 05, 2007 01:46 AM

It's hard to draw a clean line between tactics and exploiting AI weakness. For me everything allowed by the game in a battle is fine to be used for any purpose atm. Ok, maybe except the 1 sprite for a million squires thing

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 05, 2007 01:48 AM

In some cases it does. For instance when you use the imps and demons formation and use gating to make the AI turn back instead of coming for your creatures. And if that is not enough you also depend on the fact that the AI will often target the warmachines or gates instead of your units.

Now, think how a semi intelligent person would play the battle if he could control the neutrals.

You saw how you can manipulate wraiths to use harm touch instead of killing you or how you can force the paladins into healing each other as you kill them. Yes this I consider an abuse but unfortunately it is effective.

The reason I dislike it though is that it takes much micromanagement and  is too time consuming compared to other factions. I definitely prefer the clean fury attacks, academy's motw spell combos and sylvan's hunter shooting. I don't feel like cheating, I just prefer something more direct
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted September 05, 2007 01:50 AM

you know its good the AI can be exploited like this in a way . if the AI was too good you wouldnt need that much imagination. because nothing would work
of course people call the AI terrible. so theres no real "pleasing everyone" Either the game is too damn easy or its too damn hard
Theres people who complained that mission 5 level 5 was impossible and in the next week or so complained how easy it is to finish everything in the game
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 05, 2007 01:55 AM

Combat AI is pretty good with some specific exceptions where it acts unreasonably.
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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted September 05, 2007 02:21 AM
Edited by Azagal at 02:21, 05 Sep 2007.

Quote:
In some cases it does. For instance when you use the imps and demons formation and use gating to make the AI turn back instead of coming for your creatures. And if that is not enough you also depend on the fact that the AI will often target the warmachines or gates instead of your units.
Sorry but No. In the strategy you provided us with (which ,again, certainly is very effective) you depend on that fact. But its also manageable without. But yes of course your gated units play a major part in your creeping, of course you'll use them to block,steal retale or trick the enemy into attacking them. But that is strategy not abusing. And it is just as straight forward as Inferno can be and it's just straight forward as any other Academy MotW spell combo. Only the MotW combo is less time consumming and often easier (this is just my personal opinion).

Quote:
Now, think how a semi intelligent person would play the battle if he could control the neutrals.

Yes your right any person in his right mind would slaugther your imps and would never boarder to even look at your gates... but come on don't tell me any other faction wouldn't have just as many difficulties creeping against a "semi intelligent person".

Quote:
You saw how you can manipulate wraiths to use harm touch instead of killing you or how you can force the paladins into healing each other as you kill them. Yes this I consider an abuse but unfortunately it is effective.

I never said that it isn't an abuse and of course you are right it is an abuse and when I said I don't like abusing the AI I mean that I don't like to play this way. My point is that you also can manage to kill the Paladins without this (abusive,no-fun,cheap) trick but of course you'll have a much harder time.

Quote:
The reason I dislike it though is that it takes much micromanagement and  is too time consuming compared to other factions. I definitely prefer the clean fury attacks, academy's motw spell combos and sylvan's hunter shooting. I don't feel like cheating, I just prefer something more direct

I can't argue with you there and you are most deffinetly right when you say that creeping with Inferno can be very time consumming and needs a lot of micromanagement but that doesn't mean that they have to exploit the AI to be effective.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted September 05, 2007 02:38 AM

Summoning, dark and war machines are very abusive vs AI but we just have to live with that for some time I guess. 2.2 HoF will hopefully make AI ignore the "right" things.
Summoning is so good vs AI because it's cumulative. I mean a phoenix MAYBE(for some weird reason..) can't kill something week 1 BUT
a phoenix + arcane armor can do 2x more.
a phoenix + arcane armor + raise dead can do ~5x more(arcane armored phoenix can be healed by raise dead with -20% penalty)
+elementals can provide distraction from a phoenix
+AI normal behaviour vs fire trap to get the picture:
a phoenix(and maybe elementals) "leads" AI through minefields(and maybe firewalls)

The obvious spell that enhance this already too ridiculous picture is mass slow. Not to mention that frenzy and puppet don't care about stacks' quantity..

So, the things that own AI the most are:
1. I-don't-care-how-much-is-in-a-stack frenzy/puppet
2. I'm-so-hot-cuz-I'm-so-cumulative summoning
3. The "detail" that 1. and 2. are cumulative AS WELL.

That's why for very efficient creeping it's good to build a magic guild up to lvl4(maybe 5) week 1 for magic factions.
Might factions, for really effective creeping, have to go for war machines and magic.

Still, it's very map dependant.. For example, the best creeping warlock should take summoning and log.. but the question arises: is it really worth it? How important is getting somewhere earlier?
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 05, 2007 07:06 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 07:15, 05 Sep 2007.

I completly dont understand you guys. AI is here for you to abuse it, it always have been in homm series. Real challenge is to beat good human players. So i dunno why i sense guilt in some pple that they beat ai over and over again with the same pattern. I have gone through every single player mission in homm1 but since then heroes become multiplayer only game for me.

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peddroelm
peddroelm

Tavern Dweller
posted September 05, 2007 09:02 AM

TRUE MULTIPLAYER

LET THE HUMAN OPPONENT PLAY THE CREEPS .

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 05, 2007 09:34 AM

I have a two comments on the latter added parts:

Inferno > I understand the reason for choosing 4 Demons as your decoy stacks, but I have tto say that in case the Gated part comes to play an important role, you should rather sacrifice a couple of Imps, because they gated units will arive ~2 times as fast as the gated Demons because Imp Initiative >> Demon Initiative. That might make a very decisive difference. Also, one thing that can be very useful against slow, large units (like Hydras, Wights, Rakshasa, Bone Dragons, etc) is making a "Gating Wall", i.e. placing the gated stacks with 2 square intervals ahed of the place where the enemy reaches on first turn (depending on speed and whether it flies) - in this way, you can effectively make a wall which large creatures cannot pass through which can buy you a lot of valuable time. Particularly useful if you have a Ballista in your army and/or in combination with powerful Mark of the Damned.

Haven > Don't underestimate the value of the Ballista. It may not be the ultimate long-term investment, but as I see it, with a faction that can have so much trouble with its creeping as Haven can, it might be a matter of survival. It depends on the richness of the map, I suppose, and also which skills you are being offered, if you can easily get levels to reach Divine Guidance you might work around it, but if you play a poorer map, and get offered War Machines very early, for me that's deffinitely a life-saver. Even if I might theoretically have gone throuh without it, I'd take it anyway because it speeds things up and is so reliable.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 05, 2007 10:53 AM
Edited by Elvin at 10:58, 05 Sep 2007.

@Azagal

Quote:
I never said that it isn't an abuse and of course you are right it is an abuse and when I said I don't like abusing the AI I mean that I don't like to play this way. My point is that you also can manage to kill the Paladins without this (abusive,no-fun,cheap) trick but of course you'll have a much harder time.

Sure, find me a way to kill them week 2 and I'm with you

Quote:
I can't argue with you there and you are most deffinetly right when you say that creeping with Inferno can be very time consumming and needs a lot of micromanagement but that doesn't mean that they have to exploit the AI to be effective.

That fast no they can't. And not in all situations you could have otherwise bypassed.

@sdfx

Quote:
Summoning is so good vs AI because it's cumulative. I mean a phoenix MAYBE(for some weird reason..) can't kill something week 1 BUT
a phoenix + arcane armor can do 2x more.
a phoenix + arcane armor + raise dead can do ~5x more(arcane armored phoenix can be healed by raise dead with -20% penalty)
+elementals can provide distraction from a phoenix
+AI normal behaviour vs fire trap to get the picture:
a phoenix(and maybe elementals) "leads" AI through minefields(and maybe firewalls)

Except
a)It is unreliable in spell availability.
b)You'll almost never get phoenix+arcane armor by week 2.
c)Pursuing mage guild 5 that fast means less units and high risk of getting the wrong spells too.
d)Even humans cannot always predict where the mines are and if they do there is little to be done about it. Units always move straight they can't go around because you told them.
e)Who has the mana to keep casting summoning? Only wizards and necros that are lucky to get knowledge quickly, motn is not enough with 1-2 knowledge.

Sure summoning is cumulative but it has flaws and it is a gamble. Plus it is indirect so it cannot instantly curse or damage a high threat unit as a master hunter.

Quote:
That's why for very efficient creeping it's good to build a magic guild up to lvl4(maybe 5) week 1 for magic factions.
Might factions, for really effective creeping, have to go for war machines and magic.

Still, it's very map dependant.. For example, the best creeping warlock should take summoning and log.. but the question arises: is it really worth it? How important is getting somewhere earlier?

If you are sure to get expert in both schools by week 1.. I covered before why I think it a bad idea. A warlock with summoning? 1-2 firetraps -> out of mana. 1 summon elementals/phoenix -> damn mana over again. Only wizards can do taht because they have the mana and the mana regeneration due to high knowledge. Dark ritual consumes too much time.

@Alc

I've used imps on occasion but I prefer to avoid it because every imp counts in the final battle. 2 imps here, 4 there...I've used the gating wall but forgot to mention it Added!

About haven I've used the ballista and it's not worth it unless you want to rush. By week 3 when you get the cavaliers your sheer defense can get you through everything so you just focus on those you can by then. Faster and easier yes but the tradeoff is not spectacular. Maybe if you could get flaming arrows or you use Vittorio that gets a bonus.

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kermit
kermit


Known Hero
Soul hunter
posted September 05, 2007 11:52 AM

On Versions: I was talking about version 1.5 of the game which I happen to posses. Behaviour of AI vs summoned/gated units is irrational, it simply ignores those units... Thus gating units in back line won't work on the other hand gates can be used as unpassable obstacles.

Just one very abusive thing to do in siege: gate a bunch of horned demons in the middle of defending troops, and make them use their area  atack. Watch the computer stand there and defend. You can easily figure out variations...

On Inferno Balista: Balista is 1500 + 1000,
Balista damage is atack dependent, so in general inferno with it's high atack can make a good use of it, but far from always...
balista damage is ridiculous (10 damage or so) without war machines skill, Even with the skill, you still need your character to have very high atack fast, and this might not happen.
So it is only interesting to spend so much cash if you get both the war machines and balista skill AND high atack... prior to that your balista will be a moskito bite to any decent stack. You'll be better off buying another hero or saving the money for some costly castle upgrade.

Using 1 unit stacks ... :
This is not solely inferno abuse, this can be done with nearly any faction... and it's really abusive... I never play this way unless I'm really frustrated by the map design



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