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| Thread: An Elegant Heroes Redesign |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 16, 2007 10:19 PM |
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I don't see what the problem is, the new gameplay is better and more varied.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted September 16, 2007 10:34 PM |
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Game play could be a bit faster, and bit more focused on adventure map conquest and a bit less on building a perfect hero.
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MornVatreniVuk
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 17, 2007 12:41 AM |
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You guys try to play on my mighty computer and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Some things are just too slow. Like the loading time.
And there are too many bugs.
Also, i can barely see some things that are placed on the map because of some tree or mountain blocking my view (Yes, I do know how to rotate a map, but it bores me).
I'm not saying that it's a bad game, but I remember, in the old days of H3 & H4 - I start the game and 5 seconds later I'm already playing. And the saving time is a bit long (If I want to save every day, which I did in previous games).
The old Heroes were much more simpler, but in a good way.
Yes, the new gameplay is more varied, but not more practical
Yet again, I'm not saying that it's a bad game, I mean, that's pretty much of what I play these days (alongside PES6).
So please, don't get me wrong.
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aulfgar
Hired Hero
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posted September 17, 2007 01:56 AM |
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@Elvin
The Instant Travel bug is still around. If I do not disable it it takes about 5-8 minutes per turn on the AI turns, on the same map if I disable it it takes about 2-4 minutes. So its not as game breaking as before but it still kills game play, for a relatively minor spell.
The main issue is that it appears to calculate movement by the number of tiles recursively with IT, which makes each of its footsteps take much longer as it checks for distance on regular move and then on IT movement and chooses the "best" path for each step.
But anyhow I have seen on this the most recent patch of 2.1 that with IT it takes much longer for AI turns that without IT.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 17, 2007 02:30 AM |
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@MornVatreniVuk
Agreed I hate the loading times and camera obstacles. I was just referring to the gameplay in general.
@aulfgar
Damn I thought we had heard the last of it.. It was in 2.1 that I stopped playing single because I joined toh. I only remember the iron throne scenario that became a pain sometime in midgame, I guess it must have been the bug. Funny because I restarted it today so I'm probably in for the same treat.
Though the turn was never THAT long, I think it was a minute maybe a little more. I'll find out soon enough 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 17, 2007 09:36 AM |
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I can confirm the IT "bug", at least in HoF 1.5. After finishing the regular campaigns, I played a few RMG-ed maps, and noticed that by the time the AI reached level 15, AI turns would grow vastly in time needed. I've timed several turns at more than 10 minutes - and yes, I have a fairly fast computer (P4 at around 3GHz, 2GB mem) bought back in january this year, so that can't be it.
I distinctly recall that the map "Maahir's Gambit" was ruined for me because of that very same spell. If you remember that map, you will know that it has a lot of narrow canyons, running parallel to eachother in semi-circles. The joy when you combine that with IT ...
The obstacle issue is bothering me most in the Underground, where you have the cave walls. Even though the cave walls appear translucent when you are looking at objects and caves through a wall, you cannot click the objects. Very annoying. I end up rotating the camera a lot in the Underground, which does irritate me in the long run.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 17, 2007 09:44 AM |
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It could also be the memory leak i don't think it is addressed yet.
So, any more suggestions? 
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted September 17, 2007 01:20 PM |
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I know there is a mod for this, but having the skill wheel available ingame.
More spells per page in the book.
Archers and Spells able to hit the shooters in the castle walls.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted September 17, 2007 03:36 PM |
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Ahh... So true what you said about the Heroes... we definetly/despratly/seriously need female models come on!! It can't be THAT big a problem. This is not even being feminist or something but dude... it's just much nicer. I don't like how they cheated with the warlocks... they are kind of both? And you are absolutely right about the Heroes specials... come on!! Either they are superheroes or they are just medicore to unconsiderable?!? And yeah... please please Nival/Ubi design guys... reconsider the design of some of your inferno crimes... please?? Take a look at Grok and Nymus... it's kind of frustrating...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 19, 2007 01:00 PM |
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An interesting point was used in the Things, small and big thread. While not really a priority what if each race had their own language as well as an understanding of common for their alliances? It would be funny to see some not understanding native well(like Zathras from Darken  ), others using a mix of common and their own - occasionally throwing native catchphrases and pure faction campaigns(say dungeon only) could use subtitles for translation 
Sure, Malassa's bile and forge and fire sound original but they are like a translation of what they'd say. I have read forgotten realms in greek and I did not like it - that's the feeling it gives. On the other hand in pirates of the dark water an old fantasy cartoon while the characters speak common they may say 'moi chi tat' ot 'jongo longo' when surprised/annoyed
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For the record I'd expect the haven and academy empires have a similar language with only a few cultural differences and sayings.
Orcs too though their language should have evolved after them living on their own for centuries.
Sylvan and dungeon sharing a common ancestry I'd expect a similar language though I'd favour more melodic for sylvan and serious/intriguing for dark elves for artistic flavour. So I guess a different pronounciation.
Dwarves, nagas and demons of course their own language. Especially demons would be interesting to see talking in a hard to understand ancient language. The thought of the H4 Malustar bio comes to mind where his name is too hard to pronounce for the other races
You may argue that this is not worth it, maybe too complex to even consider. Gameplay comes first and foremost.
As with the other features I mentioned I favour game diversity and giving the game a unique flavour, a distinct feeling and culture.
Every little bit can make a game stand out and be remembered.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted September 19, 2007 01:17 PM |
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Sigr Dverga!
(Old Norse: "Victory for the Dwarves!" I looked it up and it gave it propper grammar and everything!)
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted September 20, 2007 06:00 PM |
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Edited by Nirual at 18:15, 20 Sep 2007.
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Quote:
You guys try to play on my mighty computer and you'll see what I'm talking about.
I know what you mean. In fact, it's still an issue if I play long enough. Seems HoMM5 is a bit badly programmed ressource-wise. The graphics aren't THAT great, but of course a long way from the previous games.
HERO SCREEN: used to confuse me quite a bit, although I got used to it. The suggestions made are good, but I can live without.
SPELLBOOK: definitely agree. Fortunately, I mostly focus on one type of magic, but it still is a hassle especially for Warlocks. And why are Runes even listed in the spellbook? They aren't "cast" by the hero in any way!
CAMPAIGNS: Cutscenes are fine for me, except the "hero talking to unit" sequences that are overly used in the single player scenarios (and quite often at the start of a campaign mission, too). In fact, they can even be a bit confusing since it's sometimes not clear who is speaking.
MAP EDITOR: I haven't really used it, but I can say this: Warcraft III kept my interest for a long time because there were so many unique scenarios created by the community in addition to the normal ladder. It's hard to make such a great editor, of course, but the more effort you put into it, the more play value you give the game. 'Nuff said.
RANDOM MAP GENERATOR: I've seen some pretty good RMG's in other games, whereas the HoMM 5 seems to be pretty lacking so far. Try limiting the randomness by defining the playing factions first and creating native terrain in a certain radius around the starter towns (and neutral towns, too). There can be room for completely random terrain somewhere inbetween, still. Most RMG's I know do just that.
MICROMANAGEMENT: I usually forget about Windmills and such about mid-game. How about this: You can flag Windmills and such, and automatically recieve the bonus at the end of the week, unless a hero visits it during the week (be it yours or an enemy, or even an ally).
Dwellings are fine by now, although the caravans are a bit unreliable. Not only do they sometimes not move at all when there are heroes or caravans in the way, and by the way I mean ANYWHERE on the path. They also tend to get into the way of heroes. How about them walking through other cavarans and heroes of the owner, unless they stand exactly where their movement would end, in which case they move as far as possible. And heroes should also be able to walk through their own caravans. At least, the caravan should vanish when the hero has taken all units in it. Instantly.
As the OP said, some racials are way to much micromanagement. Academy and Rampart come into mind, in addition to making the heroes extremely dependant on their cities if they want to make the most of the racial. The other racials seem fine, although Training seems a bit restrictive now, since the 7/20 troops per week are wasted if you don't use them, and it's hard to make any use of it early on because it's so expensive.
BUILDING COSTS: What I hate there is that in most maps, you have one mine of every kind regardless of faction, and then you need huge amounts of some ressources and almost none from certain others. It's halfway okay if the ressource in question also comes from the silo, but how are Fortress players supposed to come up with the huge amounts of wood required for most of their buildings? I usually have Archdruids before I have all 3 tiers below because their buildings cost mostly ore, which is otherwise barely used by this faction. Of course, trading ore for wood doesn't really help at the default ratio...
other than this gap between usual ressource income and requirement, the costs seem to be fine.
TOWN: I agree on most points made by the OP, although I don't mind triple prices. Still better than always needing a Warmachine Factory for heroes that specialize in siege weapons, like I often do. 4500 is steep, but worth it if you specialize in Ballista. The ammo cart on the other hand... 2250 is a bit much wether you specialice Siege Weapons or not, since that only adds 3 attack for ranged units. On the other hand, 750 is pretty cheap for unlimited ammo. I've meet few AI heroes smart enough to kill the cart, unless they aimed area spells at my ranged units.
HEROES: Indeed, a serious overhaul is needed in many cases. Ellaine is only good for hiding in a save spot and sending all peasants to her for extra cash. Many heroes specialising into a specific creature are pretty boring unless the creature is one of your favorites. How about complementing them with a related combat ability and /or special perks like Irina, who gets Battle Dive for her normal Griffins, or Klaus with a stronger Retaliation Strike (even though I never use it)already? Most others are stuck with the attack power and defense boost, sometimes health boost.
And why are most of the more unique specials only available in campagins and single player scenarios? I see that most of them could potientially be very powerful or pretty useless in competitive gameplay, but with some tweaking, they should work out regardless.
Skills alos generally need a lot of tweaking. There should be more options to get a good hero. Dungeon is especially bad since you bascially have no other option than making a strong spellcaster with Destruction and Luck for the awesome Warlords Luck. Otherwise you are completely passing out on the potential of their racial. Chains are a fun idea, but not nearly as effective.
ORIGINALITY: Like the older games were any better... Angels and Devils looked like coming straight from the christian bible.
Gargoyles fit pretty well into the oriental theme they've given to Academy, in my opinion.
STARTING OPTIONS: I'd love more starting options like a few tier 1-3 units, rare ressources, low level spells for the starting hero, just about anything you also see in the campaign boni, just toned down the level of the current boni.
Good AI? Don't get your hopes up.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 20, 2007 06:57 PM |
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Agreed for the most part The windmill part has often been suggested because that was the H4 way and I'd like the option to have more starting army or spells. That would feel like a campaign, always loved picking the bonuses
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted September 20, 2007 09:04 PM |
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Edited by Nirual at 21:59, 20 Sep 2007.
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Quote:
Agreed for the most part The windmill part has often been suggested because that was the H4 way and I'd like the option to have more starting army or spells. That would feel like a campaign, always loved picking the bonuses
It was? Hardly played that one, just had the idea myself. Guess H4 was good for something after all. The alternative upgrades seem to come from there too, only more variable.
Edit: I wonder if someone will make a mod like WoG for H3 sometime. Seems like there are some good ideas floating around.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 20, 2007 10:00 PM |
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They certainly are more balanced now and at least you can choose to retrain them into the other upgrade. While a good idea it was poorly implemented. H4 had some good ideas but suffered on the implementation.
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted September 20, 2007 10:21 PM |
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Quote:
They certainly are more balanced now and at least you can choose to retrain them into the other upgrade. While a good idea it was poorly implemented. H4 had some good ideas but suffered on the implementation.
Not to mention that the basic gameplay was completely changed.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 29, 2007 03:42 PM |
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It's time for taking another look at the redesign proposals with the recent release of the demo. Of course it's just a demo and we may be missing many more things but I see some progress already - it's evident that they are paying attention to the fans and what they want.
LOADING SCREEN
What do you know, we get a speech while loading at least in the campaign. Better than waiting, staring at a filling bar
INTERFACE
We get some nice new options as kingdom overview and wait button. Better late than never There may be more things but I went through the demo in a hurry for lack of free time.
SPELLBOOK
While I cannot see any spellbook changes the barbarian 'spellbook' shows signs of creativity. The warcries are scribed on a red piece of cloth weaved between two bones and switching between adventure and combat spells turns it around Just look at it!
MICROMANAGEMENT
Although we cannot see it in the demo Sir Charles has confirmed that the arties from artificer will now increase in value retroactively whenever your knowledge changes. What remains to be seen is what happens when you remove knowledge arties  I don't remember about avenger but I'm positive I heard about it becoming simplified as well. All in all the game is getting better.
Hope to see more good implementations in the future  And less things to complain about
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 29, 2007 04:02 PM |
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I'm not sure if the change to the loading screen with the voice-over is a good one. Even though English is my second language, there have been such voice-overs that I found hard to understand. Partially because the voice was somewhat hard to hear, partially because of the music and other background noises playing through it.
For the hearing impaired or people who are worse in English, the lack of subtitles for those voice-overs can be a pain.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted September 29, 2007 04:04 PM |
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my only complaint about the spellbook for Barbarians is the thing on the uppper right, the sortof Y thing. There are buildings that let you buy Talismans like that for your hero that give them Adventure spells. The talisman should change accordingly, yet it is always the same. Also, about Kingdom Overview: There are options to build and buy creatures without having to go into the city. Awesome idea.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 29, 2007 04:05 PM |
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I will agree to that of course. I actually wondered if they would be implemented in a cutscene with the release of the game.
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