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Heroes Community > Tournament of Honor > Thread: Suiciding
Thread: Suiciding This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
karim26
karim26


Known Hero
Land of Snowfall & Sunshine
posted September 14, 2007 08:38 PM

Suiciding

Hello all,

My nickname in the Heroes IV season was the King

......not the King as the best, but more-so because I wouls suicide so many times, hehe.

I have some thoughts as to how to resolve suicides reportwise.

If there is a rule between players that reloads are allowed, then that solves the suicide problem right there.

However, I do play with the no reload rule quite often now, as it forces players to calculate risks before doing something stupid.

I was thinking these set of rules or guidlines:

1) Perhaps in the reporting section, a player who suicides loses the normal points, and the winner only gets a fraction of the points instead of the usual 30.

2) During the game, if there is a NO RELOAD rule and one suicides, perhaps the other player can offer the following to the suicidee: lets reload, BUT if the suicidee wins the game, no-one will report the game.

I just feel that the winner does not deserve to get all win points for never really beating the other player. However, the suicidee deserves to lose points for being stupid.


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insatiable
insatiable


Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
posted September 14, 2007 08:48 PM

hmm theory of relativity..

then we have to make such adjustments for maps like mystic vale or medium randoms...

or some map can be waaay huge..


these all are secondary crap anyway.. just keeps us in a circle, a cult under the beleif of Heroes of Might and Magic, not some stupid ranking system          

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 14, 2007 09:06 PM

I only consider reloading when there is a misclick, in one of my first games destro had not put his nightmares or something in the battle but there have been cases I have lost a battle because I moved with the hunters instead of shooting - damn lag! One single misclick can cause many casulaties and even cost you the game so I think of it as an exception.
If you see that happening too often, well you don't allow it further especially if you don't know the other player

If you suicide it's your problem, you know the risks. You gamble for better or worse.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!

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sq79
sq79


Famous Hero
posted September 15, 2007 09:08 AM
Edited by sq79 at 09:11, 15 Sep 2007.

Hehe interesting post on suiciding..

If they/myself flee/suicide early in game like week1, I usually offer a load, or void game so i can sleep early nowadays. Unless i have records i gotta report loss for suiciding early as well, its usually ok to give a load. But it all depends on opponent i guess

Breaking garrison like in bfh or hourglass or dead mans lake etc ..
Those doesn't justify for a reload, because that's a risk that would increase game winning chances greatly. If suicide there, reporting loss is justifiable.

When get reload, or offer reload and the one who offers it actually lost the game.
I have such a case before with zilo, trust me,i felt damn guilty and i never wanted it to happen again.
So if suicide, i will report immediately to avoid such a thing from happening

Problem with suiciding is too risky fight to ensure a perfect game.
Thinking about it, if the reload is always given, it might not be good for the game. There would be not risk assessment at all which is part of the game.

P.S karim, i think i might have suicided more than u in heroes 5 season And nice to see u back playing.

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elit
elit


Famous Hero
posted September 15, 2007 10:44 AM

When you fight vs random monster and did suicide battle its your problem...no reson for load. If yo misclick and move not right hero/attack wrong unit you can ask your opoent for load. If he trust you he can accept load but he can decline too.
All depend when both ppl play how much trust eatch other. In ToH i have loads/restart only with Sq79...but think we never did it for suicide battle. We are play on HG all random and when we think game is not 50/50 from begining we are restart..its can be day 2-3-4 week 1.

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karim26
karim26


Known Hero
Land of Snowfall & Sunshine
posted September 15, 2007 05:22 PM

I understand that suicidiing is one's fault. However, why should the opponent get 100% of points for that?  When you suicide, you beat yourself, not the opponent who beats you, hence, why should the other get full points for that?


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nevermind
nevermind


Famous Hero
posted September 15, 2007 05:24 PM

..

Quote:
I understand that suicidiing is one's fault. However, why should the opponent get 100% of points for that?  When you suicide, you beat yourself, not the opponent who beats you, hence, why should the other get full points for that?




I totally agree with karim , I've stated once before that sucides should have its own report category but no one listens

As usual i'm part of the minority , And thats a good thing

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lkru33
lkru33


Promising
Famous Hero
3x NFL Pick'em Champ
posted September 15, 2007 05:49 PM

Lets look at this scenario:

Player 1 is having the game of his life and will more than likely win the game outright.

Player 2 suicides.

Player 1 offers a reload (wanting to play out the incredible game he has going after 4+ hours).

Player 2 declines the reload.


Does Player 1 get only a fraction of the points for the win?

I would suggest that if a reload is offered and declined, then the winner should get the full amount of points.
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karim26
karim26


Known Hero
Land of Snowfall & Sunshine
posted September 15, 2007 08:58 PM

yep.....i agree with you on that one. Makes sense. offer Reload, if rejected, then allow full points.

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nevermind
nevermind


Famous Hero
posted September 15, 2007 09:37 PM

..

Quote:
Lets look at this scenario:

Player 1 is having the game of his life and will more than likely win the game outright.

Player 2 suicides.

Player 1 offers a reload (wanting to play out the incredible game he has going after 4+ hours).

Player 2 declines the reload.


Does Player 1 get only a fraction of the points for the win?

I would suggest that if a reload is offered and declined, then the winner should get the full amount of points.


Actually your right here and on the case of points i'm not sure if i agree with karim , Any change of points system should be thought about heavily i'm not sure if there is a solution that can't be "exploited" , But what i really would like to see in my record and others is a seperate sections for wins and losses that were result of sucides ,As i see it that would make a clearer picture of one's true record  , As of now the records don't tell the whole story ..

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cycleguy
cycleguy


Adventuring Hero
Runs through cornfields naked
posted September 15, 2007 10:54 PM

Quote:
If you suicide it's your problem, you know the risks. You gamble for better or worse.


Good quote Elvin

More than half my losses invlove me suiciding trying to break that damn HG garrison...One would think I would have the hang of that map by now.  Not once have I even considered altering the scoring system because I underestedmated a computer stack or garrison, nor do I ask my opponent to let me try again until I get it right. I usually just say something like "lol gg I suicided wanna report and play another?"

Most people who know me know I play no reloads, in my opinion reloads do two things (1) favor the more agressive player (2) makes a long annoying tedious game reloading turns youve already waited 30minutes once for.


If I suicide I lost because my strategy was poor, my opponent deserves those points for the time he invested in the game.


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vesuvius
vesuvius

Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
posted September 16, 2007 01:22 AM

since homm2, if I suicided, I reported my loss.  No if, and or butts.  My latest was a hero tourn suicide vs. mellomir.  I lost and reported my day 6 game.
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted September 16, 2007 01:56 AM

Well when i used to play I tried to be as fair as i can.
I find a reported game over suicide is a wasted game.
I like a good game & I always tried to make the game as pleasant as possible, even if I did kick thier butts .
If i suicided then I would leave it up to them.
If they suicided I will have a restart.
Even if it was vs Flamingo
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karim26
karim26


Known Hero
Land of Snowfall & Sunshine
posted September 16, 2007 02:41 AM

question of honor

true....true.....

you take risks, you die, you lose.

However, this is called Tournament of HOnor, and I think that an honorable thing to do is offer a reload case by case.

I agree that trying to break garisson in record time and dying on that, well you deserve to lose. Its got to be case by case.

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sq79
sq79


Famous Hero
posted September 16, 2007 05:47 AM
Edited by sq79 at 05:59, 16 Sep 2007.

Hmm now the problem is there is option to flee no matter how bad the battle went, so its not a suicide after all since there is option to flee

As cycle said, suiciding is usually because of very agressive play. If lose the fight, can always flee and get punished for losing the army because of overconfidence. Why isn't that possible ???
Example, does a player deserve the load if he tried to take on lots of emerald dragons with week 2 troops and suicided ?
Or taking on utopia with only 90 marksmen and 6 peasant etc ..

Can you imagine the game outcome if suceeded ?

I have a very live example in a recent game with betruger in dead mans lake, he was inferno and i was haven, game went perfect for me breaking the spectrals early week3 with 90 marksmen, then he came rushing for me and i was taking utopia before chaining the army back, but with only 90 marksmen and 6 peasants, i simply suicided at the utopia and fleed back to town and fought the battle with ard 50% lesser troops.
Problem here is, with the utopia and remaining army not lost, battle outcome would be haven which was proven when we did another trial fight after the report, but the greedy fight in utopia lost me the game.
If he had given me a load, and i won that fight, it would have left a bitter taste in the win.

Most often some players think it is very skillful because of the early big fights they can take on. But that's not what the game is all about.
I feel there's alot more things in heroes

It doesn't feel good on both sides if a player offering the load loses out the game because he gave the more agressive player loads.

A misjudge on fights = loss, simple as that

Misclick was a different story though, depends on the player would like to offer it, and he would reserve the right not to in fact...
Karim's case was one off case if he would like to explain it

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Elit
Elit


Famous Hero
posted September 16, 2007 06:46 AM
Edited by Elit at 06:51, 16 Sep 2007.

Karim no offence but your suggestion is not right for many ressons. I will show you few from them.

1. If we accept for diferent report and "load" rule result will be alot argue every day. For example 1 side can be mad on second for bad going his game and start fake suicide every turn for give less  points his oponent.
2. When 2 ppl play 1vs1 its to see who is play better. If 1 side cant decide his battles and did suicide this know he is play less good this game.
3. One side loss every battle smal part from his army. Second dont have losses and after it suicide in 1 battle. Why he need can ask for load?

I'm not sure do you remember your game vs me on HG when you play Dungeon. If you remember my hero did portal and not kill your guard when can do  it. I did it because its part from my plan to give you chance for loss army befor final battle. After few turns you did this "mistake" to try breack and loss most from your army. This piss you so much...so we load, you give few turns to can come to you for final battle with your full army. We did  very close battle and i won.
 But i risk to give you chance for loss army , because if you have resurect and kill guard with zero losses this will cost me game for sure. So tell me honest do you think i'm not deserve my win and if you won second battle after load will be righ for void game?

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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted September 16, 2007 09:39 AM

That is why you compromise.
You follow the toh rules.
Optional rules has to be compromised, otherwise there will be confusion & anger.
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nevermind
nevermind


Famous Hero
posted September 16, 2007 10:59 AM

Quote:
Hmm now the problem is there is option to flee no matter how bad the battle went, so its not a suicide after all since there is option to flee


Fleeing while losing all your army is same as suciding , You virtually can't win the game so might as well surrender..

In any way i thought about this long back when homm5 was developed that problem exist from homm 3 and My idea to fix it is simple - a surrender button , Much like when playing against another hero ..

You pay a small price to keep your troops and you can regain hero and troops in town, Also if anyone thinks of the exploit of hit n run on monster the answer is simple , Any units killed return to life (or in a logical story sense , Letz say the units replace the old ones by hiring new ones with the money given to them - so also can be a relative cost between the surrender and number of units dead on the battlefield..)

In any way ofcourse the developers of homm 5 were not aware of this problem , Since they know jack about playing homm and ofcourse never bothered to consult with the veteran homm players who knew the weaknesses of homm.
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 16, 2007 03:06 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 15:11, 16 Sep 2007.

When i play i always calculate risk of possible suicide. I rarely risk a game for faster creeping but sometimes it happens and im ready for consequences. Some times there are situations where theres no escape from and you lose good game with a bad luck. Thats why i always give other people load if they want, i dont like to waste a good game coz of some unfortunate early move. When i suicide i always ask for a reload , I can understand when somebody doesnt agree but i dont really like it. I think ladder games arent that important to be so harsh. I feel that everybody deserves one load in ladder games, its not a single elimination tournament. Of course introducing that rule would give incentive to aggressive play so i guess thats not be a good idea as well, but i like having such informal rules. All in all we are all here to have fun.

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phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted September 17, 2007 02:46 AM

So the informal rule is "only reload due to misclick" ?

I mean I usually go with what I agree on with whoever I'm playing against.  I usually agree to play only with people who are demonstrably honorable by checking their records.

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