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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: ToTe skills - a small analysis :)
Thread: ToTe skills - a small analysis :) This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT»
Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 06, 2007 02:47 PM

Empathy, bah! All heroes skill perks have been changed now you can get all perks what others can have also so why would Necromancers be any different? There is nothing wrong whit Empathy, why would you take Leadership in the first place? Nothing requires it anyway! Leadership is the only thing what could be replaced but why? Because 2% change to get that skill? I understand Barbs will get Shout instead of Sorcery but i don't see really point why Necros should have own skills as well. Sorry guys but stop whining about things what don't mater in the first place.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

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phoenixreborn
phoenixreborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted October 06, 2007 03:09 PM

Quote:
Empathy, bah!  Sorry guys but stop whining about things what don't mater in the first place.


Why should I be forced to pick a skill that has zero usefulness (leadership)?  That shouldn't even be an option so don't tell me not to try to change it.  Empathy is also of minimal use most of the time, like getting navigation on a waterless map.

The point is to have fun and useful skills.

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 06, 2007 03:49 PM

No one forces you to get Leadership not even the Witch Huts (if not changed from H3 times) If Leadership would be useful for Necros like reducing enemy morale then it would be obvious pick for them and more Diblomacy+Herald of Death abusers. No way. Useless skill whit two nice perks thats fine for me.

Tough i admit having a useless skill in the game is a bit stupid. But the perks will do. Now that i think about it maybe Empathy needs a change! What if it would work against the enemy. Just thing about the possible combos! Cloak of Death's Shadow + Sorrow + Banshee Howl + Empathy enemy Wizards and Warlocks would never even get a turn

I'm against the idea of Necro even having a Leadership skill. All heroes should have equal amount of possible skills and having two decent perks in Leadership makes for it. Leadership could be my skill choice right after Light Magic that is
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 06, 2007 05:23 PM

Of course the game works with a useless skill. Heroes 3 was also a great game, even if Eagle Eye was always a lousy skill. But I must admit, than when we face the choice of a useful skill and a useless skill, why should we choose the useless one?
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What will happen now?

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 06, 2007 11:01 PM bonus applied.
Edited by Homer171 at 23:07, 06 Oct 2007.

What towns could actually go for the Ultimate Skills

I made few tests whit Skillwheel 3.0 and listed all heroes what have best starting skills (to gain ultimates) Lowest required Hero level is 22 - 25 depending on the Hero Class. Some heroes needs to make big sacrifices to get their ultimas. Other can have it easier but not necessary as strong ones and other just need to 'wait' little longer.

Barbarians:

Garuna is the only Barbarian hero who can't learn Absolute Rage Ultimate Skill. 2 Heroes start whit non needed skills so they are out. Also you need to leave out 3 other heroes because perfectly build Barbarian hero needs Retribution (whit that skill you can't have Ultimate). So we are left whit 2 Heroes who benefits the most from the Ultimate build up and they are Kragh and Kilghan. Kragh is the most obvious choice if you are trying to get Absolute Rage because he benefits from the Attack skill perks: Battle Frenzy -> Stunning Blow -> Excruciating Strike the most!  Both SB and ES makes the Kragh special ability Pounder even stronger and what counts the most is that you don't have useless skills. That said let's concentrate on Kilghan. Every racial Ultimate skill build up will sacrifice some good skills and come up whit bad ones. For Barbarians these skills are Recruitment and all War Machine perks Catabult -> Goblin Support -> Brimstone Rain. Altough you get the same bonuses as Kilghan from Goblin Support and Recruitment he has already quite high Goblin growth and therefore benifits from this skill more than others.

Demon Lords:

Nebiros is the only Demon Lord who can't learn Urgash's Call Ultimate Skill. There are only 1 Demon Lord who can learn Ultimate on level 23 and it's Grok. Grok already starts whit the needed Logistics and whit his fast legs you can roam the world even faster and go for the Ultimate. But there is a catch. You can't get Warpatch and you need to take useless skills like Corrupted Soil and Flaming Arrows <- Witch would be great for Deleb but War Machines aren't needed for Urgash's Call.

Knights:

All Knights can learn Unstoppable Charge Ultimate Skill but only Laszlo and Ellaine can learn it on level 23. This skill aren't really worth it. If you must have it go for it whit Klaus when he can learn Unstoppable Charge on level 24 and he benefits from it the most when his specialty increases the Retaliation Strike attack along whit Jousting bonus. Skill build up is alright and doesn't spoil your Attack perks either.

Necromancers:

Zoltan is the only Necromancer who can't learn Howl of Terror Ultimate Skill. Naadir, Deidre and Vladimir can learn Ultimate on level 23. Howl of Terror build up needs both Dark and Summon magic school so let's take hero who benefits the most from the Ultimate skill and that is Banshee specialist Deirdre. This Ultimate build up is not perfect but it's still decent. You might miss Haunted Mines or Master of Mind (Mass Slow\Confusion) but other than that you get alright skills in the progress. It's good Ultimate if you manage to get it. -8 to enemy morale is very good.

Rangers:

Ylthin and Ossir can't learn Nature's Luck Ultimate Skill. All other Rangers starts whit skill what aren't needed for Ultimate so every hero needs to be at least level 25 to reach Nature's Luck. There is no special hero who would benefit from the Ultimate or it's build up more than others. Skills are typical Logistics, Luck and Light. Skill perks aren't either great or horrible but if you manage to get Nature's Luck you have got yourself the strongest Ultimate Skill in the game.

Runemages:

Svea is the only Runemage who can't learn Absolute Protection Ultimate Skill. Ingvar and Brand are the only Runemages what can learn Ultimate on level 23. Both heroes benefits the same from the Ultimate Skill. Build up is bit strange. Master of Earthblood -> Exorcism -> Runic Armour <- That's brobably the only reason why Summon Magic is required and not Light Magic. Other than that the build up is pretty good. Best Destruction and Defense perks what you could ask for.

Warlocks:

All Warlocks can learn Rage of the Elements Ultimate Skill but only Sinitar and Vayshan can learn it on level 23. I would personally take Sinitar when he can cast more of those Empowered Spells whit Elemental Rage damage. For Destructive you must Master every element and forget that Ignite. Other that that it's perfect build up. Too bad Rage of Elements is no good.

Wizard:

Nur is the only Wizard who can't learn Arcane Omniscience Ultimate Skill. Narxes and Jhora can reach Ultimate on level 22! Don't get fooled by that tough. Sorcery and Enlightenment are good skill and whit nice perks but the problem is you need strong magic and fast whit Wizard. Fact that you need War Machines whit Catapult -> Remote Control -> Tremors perks doesn't help you whole lot. That's 6 wasted skill slots. For now this Ultimate Skill is unreachable at least in competitive game against human opponents. Realistic time of getting Arcane Omniscience is on levels 29 - 34.

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 07, 2007 03:08 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 03:09, 07 Oct 2007.

Quote:
But I must admit, than when we face the choice of a useful skill and a useless skill, why should we choose the useless one?


sometimes we choose useless one because
a) it is required to open another skill
b) we dont want to take other skills that will open new skilltree  and we wake useless perk that doesnt destroy our hero build

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FireSpirit
FireSpirit


Famous Hero
with warm hands
posted October 07, 2007 10:03 AM

Quote:
Quote:
But I must admit, than when we face the choice of a useful skill and a useless skill, why should we choose the useless one?


sometimes we choose useless one because
a) it is required to open another skill
b) we dont want to take other skills that will open new skilltree  and we wake useless perk that doesnt destroy our hero build

In those cases the skill would be useful to pick, not useless .
____________

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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted October 07, 2007 10:50 AM

nice summary homer. Seems almost like Nival tried to balance Natures Luck a bit by giving none of the Sylvan heroes a headstart.
Too bad they didn't try to even out the Ultimates themselves instead.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 07, 2007 11:14 AM

Quote:
Quote:
But I must admit, than when we face the choice of a useful skill and a useless skill, why should we choose the useless one?


sometimes we choose useless one because
a) it is required to open another skill
b) we dont want to take other skills that will open new skilltree  and we wake useless perk that doesnt destroy our hero build


Sorry, you kind of missed my point: I was more aiming at the whole development concept: Why should we choose to have a useless skill in the game (i.e. Leadership for Necromancers) when we could have a useful one to replace it and still retain the same perks we want to be there.
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What will happen now?

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 07, 2007 03:58 PM

Of course having useful skills is better than having useless skills, Im just saying that in current situation sometimes it pays of to take useless skill over useful one because of other factors than its strength.

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grow
grow


Adventuring Hero
posted October 17, 2007 09:09 AM

all in all it makes anticipating enemy really hard lol...a guess

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nothing is predictable
grow me

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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted October 17, 2007 11:10 PM

How would you build up the Wizard? - There are so many useful skills they can get, but many of them often has a lousy skill to learn before you can get the good stuff.. - So give me some ideas?
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 18, 2007 12:04 AM
Edited by Homer171 at 00:11, 18 Oct 2007.

Well whit Wizards my hero pic would be Havez and first i would try to get Ballista -> Trible Ballista skills and then Intelligence followed closely by Summon Magic. Summon perks aren't that good you just need to hope you will get Conjure Phoenix from Mage Guild meantime Phantoms are good. Sorcery is a must of course and perks Arcane Training -> Counterspell -> Arcane Excellence are just fine. Enlightenment whit Intelligence -> Graduate -> Wizard's Reward will boost your Knowledge and Spell Power even more. Light and Dark schools are also good magic choices if you like to "play it safe". Dark is perhaps better but it is countered often by Knights, Rangers and is useless against Necromancers.
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 18, 2007 12:08 AM

Hmm fire warriors isn't that bad and elemental balance/banish can save your hide against certain factions.
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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 18, 2007 12:13 AM
Edited by Homer171 at 00:15, 18 Oct 2007.

Yes Banish and Elemental Balance are good against evil doers Necros and Demon Lords or other Wizzy. If not play whit Havez then other Magic school would be in order.
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted October 18, 2007 10:27 AM

I can tell you this: I wanted to know this So I could build Zehir good- His starting skills is, lvl 9: Advance luck - Resourcefulness . Sorcery . Summoning - Master of life . Enlightment - Intelligence.

What I hate here is: What do I choose for Sorcery?! Because I think Arcane Excellence is bad... And the other things i can get sucks too (If I get Counterspell).

And I cant figure a good Summoning build. Master of life.. I can live with that, but if i find a mentor that can unlearn i would maybe do it. Since i can get another perk, and Banish is needed for later games again demons.
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.

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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted October 18, 2007 12:59 PM

I pretty much have the same problem. With Zehirs awesome spellpower and knowledge and the mana cost reduction from Archmages, there hardly is any point in any of the Sorcery perks, while Sorcery itself is a must. Distract might be kind of fun though. Magic Insight is useful to be able to cast Fireball and Circle of Winter to heal your golems whilst damaging their attackers, and Arcane Brilliance isn't too bad either. Same with Summoning Magic. Expert Summoning is a must for Phoenix, but the +4 spellpower perks hardly make any difference. Fire Warriors is a nice perk though, and so is Banish (as I figure he'll face Inferno heroes).

As for Luck, I actually dropped that at at the first memory mentor I came across. Warlock's Luck is pretty pointless without going for Destructive Magic, and while Resourcefulness is kind of handy, I'd rather have that on my squire. I picked up Mentoring just for the that ^^. Spoils of War is fun on paper, but the effect is barely noticable.

For the other slots, I picked War Machines (nice Ballista with that knowledge, and First Aid Tent is kind of important since you'll be far away from towns often) and Logistics. I even took Leadership until the first Memory Mentor since I wanted to try Artificial Glory, but then dropped it because said skill just didn't want to show up.

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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 18, 2007 01:12 PM

Usually its good to have main skills like sorcery and enlightenment with no additional perks. Perks are usually less powerful than main abilities, with some exceptions of course.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted October 18, 2007 09:07 PM

Yeah, it's so unfair that master of wrath makes haste like 14 times better: 7 stacks affected instead of 1 and 20 hero init instead of 10.
I'm most saying that we should get mass implosion or something but some +4 spellpower is just not good enough. +2 knowledge/spellpower=bad too. On the other hand intelligence is a good example of a strong and balanced perk.

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Nirual
Nirual


Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
posted October 19, 2007 10:10 AM

Quote:
Usually its good to have main skills like sorcery and enlightenment with no additional perks. Perks are usually less powerful than main abilities, with some exceptions of course.


Most perks are about as powerful as one skill level or even 2. Case in point are perks like Estates or Intelligence that were skills back in heroes 3. Their effect is exactly the same as the basic skill (Estates) or Advanced (all Logistic Perks, Intelligence, Archery) of old.
Some even are as powerful as the Expert skill (Arcane Intutition aka Eagle Eye, which got boosted even beyond that by letting you see the enemy inventory, Scholar).

Of course, most perks are more situational than the main skills (Navigation, anyone?), but they can be very powerful if used right. Leadership by itself is overkill if you have a one-faction army, some morale artifacts and map loaction boosters, but it's perks like Empathy are where the real glory comes in (and Attack - Retribution, which is potentially more powerful than Expert Attack itself!)

The only basic perks that are always pretty lacking are the summoning magic ones. That 4 spellpower doesn't really cut it for anything compared to the Mass/Area goodness from Light and Dark or the added effects from Destructive Magic. Sure, it can help for classes with usually low spellpower, but it's still a weak perk compared to other magic perks.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.

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