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| Thread: Open maps, closed maps, random maps |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 14, 2001 04:10 PM |
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Once more I bring it to the top 
But just because I want Rychen to see how alot of those ppl that dont like HG actually thinks about TOH. At least thats what Im hoping.
In my little world, ppl thrashing maps they dont like, are only meant as a joke. Maybe coz they dont play that facet of the game well, or perhaps because they dont enjoy it as much.
Perhaps its time we became a little more respectfull to the players that do enjoy and are good at playing a different type of Heroes than ourselves.
Defreni
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted November 15, 2001 05:18 AM |
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Well said!!
I'll admit that I tend to look down at those that claim certain maps are bad. It always comes across as whining to me. A good player wins through skill on any map. Don't whine because you lost or won due to luck. This is what I hear a lot of in the tournament I run. I find it sad to see the same thing in toh.
There are certain maps I don't like, but I don't go around trashing them or making fun of people that like them. But perhaps, I am just missing the joke.
Regarding maps; I still think that Mad Unicorn says it best in those posts where he looks at maps.
In the end, all that is needed is more respect. We're all players here, and deserve respect, no matter what type of game we prefer.
jiels (who likes fests ;p)
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted November 15, 2001 09:02 AM |
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Yes
Hey Mocara- good analysis on BfH; first time I heard someone get to the important point on that map like that. It's exactly what it's about- controlling the middle. It is the most chess like map in play style I know of in ToH maps, but many ToH maps(especially open style) can be played more strategically. I believe the closed maps are more tactical in the definition of close order battles versus long term planning which is strategy. In closed maps it comes down a little to the strategy of what you do after when the map finally opens and what you based your hero build on vs your opponents, but it is mostly a tactical race map- you negotiate your armies through as many heroes every turn as possible to open your resources quickest and thereby gain an advantage. Missing a chain by 1 day can be difference between victory and death before you even meet your opponent.
Of course keeping the pressure on in the open maps is much more fun, I don't get as much pleasure from building a giant hero and army as from manipulating an opponent so they move where I want them to at the proper moments.
Actually almost all games come down to controlling the middle- in fact I have won must often on BfH by luring my opponent into the middle town where they are slowed even with a logistics hero and sending in multiple scouts so sneak around edges of the map and steal his castle. Of course that is also dependent of my hero being stronger so they are a little desperate I don't gain middle town without opposition, but... sometimes they also do it thru over confidence. I really don't like to siege on that map since it's extremely hard to gain a large creature or hero level bonus versus any decent player, I've had more sieges when at the end I had only a few creatures of one stack left on that map than any other. I'd rather steal a week's production from them or else make them run their main ragged preventing it or trying to chain enough units back to their town my main can strike with assurance... anyway, lots ot strategies you can try on open maps, whereas most closed maps have limited options.
The limited options is why those maps are often accused of being luck based- with only a certain amount of things possible, it isn't as much a mental game as benefiting from your artifacts and spells to win a victory.
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted November 15, 2001 09:23 AM |
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yeah, you're right about that jiels.
Analysis of maps:
I think the reason I dislike dw and hg, is because when I play them, there exists more fear than fun.
Fear of what? $#!%%y relics, a crappy utopia, opponent having both gold mines (dw) ... it becomes more of a competition (or race) than an enjoyable game to me.
To be perfectly honest, ALL my losses on these maps were from either of two things (or both):
- being @$$ed with relics (or opponent getting lucky)
- being @$$ed with spells (while opponent gets implo & res.)
Likewise, I probably WON most if not all of these from my opponent being unlucky like this as well.
I have not yet found one counter example with my 14 games (on dw & hg).
You know, the more I think about it ... the more I realize that these maps are not "luck" maps ... rather, they are "relic races".
- Whoever can get to their relic first and / or can get better or more relics than opponent wins.
- It is a race of hero development ... whichever hero can grab more power-ups.
- Whoever can retrieve their "stoic watchman" first to receive another relic.
- Whoever can get to the middle castle first to get more spells ... and secure the area to get more relics.
I prefer maps where skills (and a little bit of luck)determine the game ... and have grown ill of maps where the relics decide the winner. <-- and the relics will over 90% of the time.
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted November 15, 2001 02:30 PM |
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Bfh
Hey Everyone,
It's me again. That annoying little sob.
Anyways, I just wanted to throw out my 2 cents with Bfh.
Ichon that's a very interesting analysis of Bfh, I agree with most of it and felt like offering up my opinion of said map.
I've played it 3 times, but the map always played the same. Day 1-3 take mines, days 4-5 take reources from fight and go after the major artifacts in middle if they are good. Usually I meet my opponent in the middle day 6-7. Fights ensue. At the onset of week 2 there usually is a definate victor in the scout wars and nothing left to do on the map. With nothing really left to do, one person tries to kill the other. Game ends week 2 or by early week 3.
This has been my experience on the map. It played the same all of the 3 times I played. And with the 3rd time, I was bored of it.
For open maps I prefer the Bfps and survivor. Jb also has some decent open maps, imo. At least there are more things to do on those.
But this all just my opinion. It doesn't mean anything.
Also, how do you guys play this map? Do you go rndm castle/hero? Because one of the times I played, my opponent picked a ballista hero and came after me week 1 with that exp ballista. On this map it certainly seems that certain castle types are at a disadantage. Or am I the only one that plays with people that try to kill you week 1 if they are Stronghold and have Hack?
jiels (that annoying little sob  )
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted November 16, 2001 06:47 AM |
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BfH
Well, the games are usually pretty short on BfH, the longest game I ever played was only 1 month long on it. Besides controlling the middle in that map taking the ocean gold early is key.
Besides the middle town and library keeping enemy scouts out of our land is fairly important. The few times I messed up early in that map I always recovered because it's such a short map if your opponent comes after your town and you don't think you can win, you can almost always race your main hero out of the darkness to take his own starting castle and get some more spells + a few stats.
As for being attacked week 1- the most often is when I play vs Rampart or Tower it seems. Especially when I'm Stronghold. Tower heroes can get 60 mana week 1 fairly easily and decent spell power, with magi and nagas chained on day 6 or 7 to attack. Stronghold with only the 1 behemoth and assorted Tbirds week 1 is fairly weak even with ballista- just not enough HP's vs a strong magic bolt which a tower hero can cast multiple times with magi and skill in a magic. As Rampart... Grand Elves- if you don't have a good magic bolt and your opponent gets lucky starting a couple heroes with 4-6 elves on each one plus the week 1 starting elves...
Personally I prefer to attack week 2 on that map since I can get at least 1 decent major arty from middle and my full army with the gold from the ocean. I even made level 10 once with a logistics hero in week 2 and taking the chests for experience rather than gold by using him as a scout then retreating on day 4 to gather the homegold and then go straight for the library. It was risky, but since it worked... ;-)
Yeah, many open maps more fun the BfH, but it always is fun for me since the confrontation is so fast and those scout wars actually matter a great deal.
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 16, 2001 04:33 PM |
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Damn, Ichon.
U do play that map fast.
I even went to late week 3 before Frank killed me on it.
And usually my games on that map goes to week 3, some even to week 4
But yeah BfH is and I thinl always will be obe of my favourite maps, just coz ur interacting with ur opponent so soon.
Defreni
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RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
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posted November 17, 2001 01:43 AM |
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Open Maps Rule
Open maps rule. Especially BFH, because in one game, I forgot to scout the underground in bfh2, so my opponent surprised me. Forcing me to bring my main hero to defend in case he tried to rush me. But in the process, I was able to rush a big scout to the redwood observatory and see almost everything he was doing, including stealing a few mines, For a while. That map taught me a lot of strategy and gave me a lot of losses, too. But failure comes before success.
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Go Red Sox!
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted November 17, 2001 01:05 PM |
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Thanks Ichon for answering my questions, I appreciate it.
I know how to play most closed maps, but am still a little unsure on some of the open ones. My losses to stronghold players are mostly on random maps with 200% difficulties, they tend to go for a kill while I'm out getting resources. *sigh*
My losses on Bfh were usually due to a wizard or warlock with magic arrow and 7 stacks of level 1 creatures. Right behind this "scout" has been my opponents main, which then hits me after I have wasted all my spell points on said "scout." It's a smart move, just one that is very annoying, and based on luck of the draw. Or not if they pick tower.
I still don't think a map is well designed if it can be cleared in one week. But I admit this is my just my opinion.
I do have wins on open maps but I have never found them very satisfying or fun. An example (not on Bfh), I beat this lt. last season by rushing him week 2, taking his capitol week 2 day 7. I sent scouts in his area to distract him and keep his attenttion focused as I snuck my main up through the underground. Week 3 day 1 I buy his troops and he conceeds.
The reason I rushed him was because he had 2 castles and I was scared that he was building them. After the game I take a look at the last save to see why he conceeded and discovered that he hadn't even started building his 2nd castle. 
In my opinion, I wrecked what could have been a fun game because I was anxious. Now, you can say I out played him or even that I out thought him. But in my mind, that wasn't it at all. I won because I attacked him when he wasn't expecting it. I won because I reacted out of fear, sound as that fear may have been.
What I have been hearing from other open maps players is very similiar to my experience, little thought, mostly just reaction. If a big hero is coming your way you either run away 'til you are stronger, try to weaken the hero so you can defeat it later on or you attack it in the hopes of killing it. Does this really take deep thought or tactical strategy?
For me, most of this game is simple cause and effect. If you throw a rock up in the air it comes down, if you invade me I either; fight back or run away. I admit that I am probably insane and am reducing this too much but hey, that's what I keep hearing about other maps. Turnaround is fair play.
You can call this human interaction but really, where is the human? If I want human interaction I go to a club, play some street hockey or go hang out with friends. That's real interaction imo.
For me the best part of this game is testing my skills against other players I respect. Nothing is as good as a win over someone I thought was better then me. I could care less about the map, as long as I play well and have fun. And so far it's working for me. 7 dragon skulls adorn this ex-Lt's trophy case this season.
Anyways, sorry for the long boring post. I hope we can discuss this intelligently and I hope you all realize that I am not trying to flame. But if you feel offended, go ahead flame me, I dare you!
Ichon, Maxym, Defreni, and Mocara, all of you guys are intelligent players and I enjoy most of your posts even when I disagree.
jiels(the stupid and boring)
ps. Defreni if you read this, tell who ever made the Odin's Missing Eye clan page that they did a GREAT job!
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted November 17, 2001 05:02 PM |
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Quote:
Ichon, Maxym, Defreni, and Mocara, all of you guys are intelligent players and I enjoy most of your posts even when I disagree.
so mine aren't enjoyable?
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 17, 2001 05:10 PM |
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Hehee Jiels, Give gcredit where credits due
Titan_888 made our awesome homepage, but ill be sure to say to him what a marvelous job he has done. I allready showered him with so much praise, that hes blushing just if I say aloha  J/K offcourse. But yeah Im kinda proud being in that clan, with that homepage.
Regarding open maps, yeah, we disagree alot there. I allmost solely played open maps season 2 and 3, and Ive never tried anything like those u describe.
Not even Frank rushed me on BfH. But each to their liking.
Btw played my second game on HG yesterday, I must admit I still prefer SD3 or Invader anyday over that map, if I have to choose closed maps
Defreni
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maxym
Known Hero
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posted November 17, 2001 09:29 PM |
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@ jiels
I think i can see where you are coming from. I think we should disregard all those comments about human interaction, we all know what player's mean when they talk about human interaction in a game. Btw street hockey, hanging out with friends or going to a bar also top my list of human interaction.
(fully clothed one at least )
But your comments about being unsatisfied with what is in my opinion great win over two castle LT. is quite telling. What else is missing in that game? A nice, ingenous final battle where you can outmanouver his army?
Quite important component of a good game IMO, but not as crucial one as it if for you. In my last game with Mocara the final battle consisted of my 2 AAs taking out his lone centaur in his main town. Not much of a climax, eh? But the game has been immensely satisfying because of the human interaction almost from the getgo. Innumerable scout battles, twists and turns, tricks and feints, and constant surprisal at what you opponent comes up with next. This is the part you summed up as:
"If a big hero is coming your way you either run away 'til you are stronger, try to weaken the hero so you can defeat it later on or you attack it in the hopes of killing it."
I guess we derive our enjoyment from different aspects of the game, the chase and pinning down of an elusive opponent, and thrill of a completely unseen map vs. running your side most efficiently, tactical prowess and being able to aoutplay an opponent on even terms.
I am not putting one over the other, btw. I would like to play a few games with you, but i have to warn you, i would consider being taken out with two castles a very satisfying loss and would be in awe of you. I am a terribly slow player and while i can do some things well rushing is my worst side.
hmm got to see what maps he plays....
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"What is life? Work followed by television."
"1985" Anthony Burgess
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 17, 2001 10:13 PM |
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Great quote Maxym
Niels Bohr......
Dane offcourse
Defreni
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maxym
Known Hero
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posted November 18, 2001 06:30 PM |
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yeah, i like this quote too, really applies to some of our more illustrious HoMM players...
I am looking for a new one though, well actually i got a hilarious one from "100 years of Solitude" but it would require a teological discussion. There used to be a thread about life, universe and everything but i don't see it anymore. Some of those posts would fit the profile, hehe
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"What is life? Work followed by television."
"1985" Anthony Burgess
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 19, 2001 12:17 AM |
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Hehee, and then u pick my favourite book aswell, ur a sneaky Bastard
Just to draw me into a philosophical discussion, but the Mods have become tough after Zud took over, guess we wont be able to hold it here
Defreni
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jex
Known Hero
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posted December 04, 2001 08:00 AM |
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Criss Cross
Hey all,
I have a map question for jb239 and other criss cross players.
The question is: Whats up with dim door being on the map???
Is this a mistake.....or just an unspoken rule that no one uses it.
I just finished playing Castrated on it. I build up to lvl4 guild in the middle. He took the castle and build lvl5, then dim doored away. I was just about to hit him without his troops. I took the castle back and got dim door too. So it worked out fine.
He surpised me, I have played the map 30+ times. And never have I seen someone get dim door on it. Do I have a bad version of the map?
It was a good game even with it in. But I could see it being a huge advantage if one player doesnt know about it. And doesnt take air magic. Just wondering....
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted December 04, 2001 08:29 AM |
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yeah, I think all map makers who make closed maps oughta take out DD and fly.
In one game I had on "supreme ruler" (mostly closed map), my opponent found angel-wings from a shipwreck survivor.
So here's Dessa with boots of speed, flying every which way. Just doesn't seem right ... does it (for making map)?
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26)
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 04, 2001 02:39 PM |
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Well DD isnt taken out on CC1 and 2, the ones with either behe or giants as guards. Ask Sal about that, me and Titan took him out that way season 2.
But in all newer version it has been taken out, at least the few where I looked at map ed.
Defreni
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted December 04, 2001 11:10 PM |
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dim door on cc
U can get dim door and fly n midle castle on cc remix.
Last season i lost a div game just because i didnt know these two spells are enabled in middle castle , and i dun think i'll ever forget they are enabled since then
Dimensionschaaf
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted December 05, 2001 02:47 AM |
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well
if your gonna include dd or fly on a closed map make it unusable to make a sneak attack on your opponent like cursed ground for dd and a HUGE mountain range that u cant get over with fly unless of course u see the whole map.
open maps it depends on the grounds about dd should be excluded off most open maps. fly all depends.
Random maps suck so no point on argueing about them 
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