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| Thread: [MOD TotE] H5/HoF Campaigns for ToE |  This thread is pages long: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 10 20 21 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 05, 2007 12:28 AM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 00:41, 05 Dec 2007.
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I'll make a quick reply here, just to cool thing down a bit (Cepheus and Tobagua are perfect gentlemen until now, and I'd like things to stay this way).
Thank you. Ignore me if I end up seeming a little bitter every so often... it's not intentional.
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I guess you mean replacing some of the "Griffin Eternal" animations every 2 seconds by some more subtle ToE anims. This will be interesting to discuss, and as long as they're neutral story-wise, I guess they could be part of the standard package (at this point, "part of" or "optional" is a detail anyway).
I don't think anyone will add any moustache, though.
No, no, I simply refer to adding the speech animations from Hammers of Fate and Tribes of the East which are absent in the original version. And perhaps replace the Keeper of the Law in Raelag's campaign with Ylaya's model, since they're the same person. That's all, and I can't see how these small improvements would spoil things.
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As I said in my previous post, this won't be included into the standard mod. If an addon package adds the feature and locks all campaigns together, then it obviously won't be compatible with the separate .exe option, as Cepheus explained.
So far, opinions expressed seem to indicate that both options would not be used together anyway.
Alright, I was for this idea but you're the boss after all. Will you be using the HoF "final" version of Raelag in the original version?
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Quick comment: the H5/HoF background cutscenes are already available for ToE as mods. (We need the links on HC by the way!)
Never heard of this so I apologise for my ignorance. 
Dang, I'm gettin' all formal. This does not become me. 
@Tobagua -
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Why would you be unhappy with small, very small and almost unnoticeable moustache added to Da Vinci's Mona Lisa portrait? Well, if that only improves the animations, that would be great, but cutscene editing (not fixing / updating) sounds like making changes to the characters' lines. I hope I'm mistaken.
I think we have an enormous misunderstanding here. Please see my above reply to Sfidanza, I too am opposed to dialogue changes. Not graphical improvements though. 
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Wrapping the original HoF and HoMM5 games in the guise of user-made (OMG!) campaigns and robbing them of their identity (expressed in the inalienable right to have a unique main menu theme and a dedicated Single Player campaign menu) is something I'm strongly against.
Do your worries stem from the idea that the campaigns will be thrown into the User Campaigns folder? If so, I guess you haven't seen this screenshot:
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sfidanza
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 12:53 AM |
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(from Tobagua)
If your basic package contains .h5u files only, than the dedicated .exes can be packaged as an addon + some manual actions on the end user's side. But better make two separate complete downloads.
Don't worry, "additional" is mainly about the mod architecture, as I don't want to maintain 2 sets of file. At this point, the final packaging for the user is a detail.
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(from Cepheus)
No, no, I simply refer to adding the speech animations from Hammers of Fate and Tribes of the East which are absent in the original version. And perhaps replace the Keeper of the Law in Raelag's campaign with Ylaya's model, since they're the same person. That's all, and I can't see how these small improvements would spoil things.
So you mean getting their lips to move when speaking, as opposed to not move. We'll try and see everything anyway, and we'll decide then where it goes.
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(from Cepheus)
Will you be using the HoF "final" version of Raelag in the original version?
No. H5 campaigns will use H5 Raelag as it was originally.
Again, I'm not saying that you can't have an integrated campaign as you're describing. Only that if it's done, it will be as an optional module.
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 12:53 AM |
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Edited by tobagua at 01:00, 05 Dec 2007.
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I've seen this screenshot, I just thought it was the modified User Campaigns menu. Sfidanza explained it was the main campaign menu. However if the User Campaigns menu item will let loading any of the hosted HoMM5/HoF campaigns one by one parallel to the main campaign menu, this will definitely suck. I wonder if the fonts can be scaled for all the three chapters to fit into the screen.
By the way, maybe the dedicated version could feature modified cutscenes with the alternative upgrade versions of the units fighting against each other taken from TotE to indicate from the very first moment that now classic campaigns support the alternative upgrades? If I'm not mistaken most unit models feature the same animations and skeletons, so replacing Arch Devil with Arch Demon in the HMM5 cutscene isn't likely to screw the animation. There's a certain .xdb files that describes all the models and animations used in a cutscene.
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Borsook
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 12:56 AM |
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I for one would be hardly interested in such a version
@Borsook: the misunderstanding here is just that your sentence means the contrary 
"hardly interested" basically means "not interested". The mistake is easy to make, don't worry.
To make it clear for everyone, you would be "very interested".
Wow, indeed I meant "very" not "hardly". For some reason not only did I make the mistake but also failed to see it when it was pointed out to me. I apologize for the confusion and hang my head in shame.
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Borsook
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 01:04 AM |
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- without a dedicated .exe and with H5/HoF/ToE campaigns together: no exit needed at all
Is it really such a big advantage? I somehow doubt players will switch between the campaigns every 5 minutes...
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 01:23 AM |
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Edited by tobagua at 01:27, 05 Dec 2007.
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2 Borsook: Agreed. I think separate savegame folders is a better option. Some players do a lot of saving over the course of a campaign, e.g. before some peculiar moments they would like to replay while learning optimal ways of warfare. You know, before trying to play against skilled humans you might want some practice against the AI since in TotE it's not bad at all.
Giving each chapter a dedicated savegame folder divides the time needed to look up the desired savegame by three and gives each chapter a unique autosave slot. Enough said.
Also I wonder how a single screen will offer enough place for the three campaign menus without blocking out the cutscene entirely (in the screenshot, at least 1/3 is blocked by the enormous scroll).
My last worry is how well hero carryover will work if I'm playing more than one chapter at a time. Probably the file that hosts carryover information can only host characteristics for a single chapter, and this will get overwritten if I finish a mission from another chapter.
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sfidanza
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 01:32 AM |
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2 Borsook: Agreed. I think separate savegame folders is a better option.
... for some players.
Let's not waste energy in arguing which is better. Both approaches have pros and cons, and different people will prefer one or the other. As the 2 options will be available, it doesn't matter.
What can be discussed is, in your preferred case, how you would like things.
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My last worry is how well hero carryover will work if I'm playing more than one chapter at a time.
Carried over heroes are saved for their target mission. So it's not a problem at all, they all coexist peacefully.
Actually, you can even replay a mission you have already finished. Let's say you replay C2M1 and finish it: Agrael will be updated if you then launch C2M2. But your C2M3 Agrael is untouched.
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 01:42 AM |
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Edited by tobagua at 02:17, 05 Dec 2007.
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LOL, this arguing only powers me up. I have nothing against having two versions available for public download at the same time, I just think what you suggest offers no advantages at all. Indeed, people don't switch chapters every five minutes, but what we get in exchange? A crowded campaign selection screen, only one savegame folder and only one autosave slot. Minus the unique cutscenes and menu music. Not much of a deal. Let alone the inability to play multiplayer games against opponents who aren't running this mod while the dedicated version sports none of these drawbacks but only requires to run different executives to access different SP campaigns.
People who mostly stick to the multiplayer now won't even feel that, since they will only launch the additional executives rather seldom, when nostalgia strikes. But nostalgia is nothing compared to the strike of the "you are running a mod that the other players don't have, bye" message. Otherwise the number of HoMM5 mods would skyrocket, but this isn't happening due to that particular reason. We have to refuse from using an ingame-integrated Skill Wheel and other useful mods like enhanced city and combat interface just because of that, too. With dedicated executives, you could at least install these mods for HoMM5 and HoF single player campaigns without ruining synchronization in TotE multiplayer.
Additionally, a fourth modified TotE executive could launch TotE with your favorite mods stored in a dedicated folder as well, while the original TotE .exe will load no mods (provided that the UserMODs folder is empty) so the mod/multiplayer compatibility will reach the highest point possible.
As for your proposal, bringing on new avoidable problems while keeping existing ones is something I would humbly say no to.
Closing the game and launching a different .exe only takes a few seconds and in addition purges the game cache, resulting in more stability and performance. I guess most people spend at least one hour of playing between switching chapters and in real life this may occur say 2-3 times a day if a person is playing more than one chapter at once, and once in a fortnight if they stick to a successive path through the chapters, but the spammed campaign selection screen never goes away.
If possible, out of pure explorer's interest I'd like to see a forum poll here. You won't believe how good it feels when your old HoF and HoMM5 savegames are stored in separate boxes when you're mainly playing SP scenarios and multiplayer games in TotE. This is the way most players got used to since as of now, HoMM5 and HoF have separate savegame folders. Why break established rules? I guess at least 70% of this place's population would support my opinion just because it's more ergonomical. Not IMO but on a much larger, quite objective scale.
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sfidanza
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 07:50 AM |
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Edited by sfidanza at 08:03, 05 Dec 2007.
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Again, Quote:
let's not waste energy in arguing which is better.
Instead, let me show you how I see the menu campaign screen, with the 3 campaigns activated:
Note that the campaign.sav (which decides which missions are unlocked) is the one from vanilla ToE. So you can see that when adding the mod, my progress in the ToE campaigns is not lost.
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romanov77
Known Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 08:45 AM |
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Thats impressive....I like that!!
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Revolver
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 11:19 AM |
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sfidanza youre great that's exactly how i pictured it. i can't wait for you to release the mod(not saying that its already done but if you would release it this way you will make me very happy)
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 12:01 PM |
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Edited by tobagua at 12:27, 05 Dec 2007.
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Looks great, but the icons look as if they were could be painted over stylized spell scrolls. Or maybe make a HoMM3 themed menu with a column of large icons on the right and a text menu on the left?
I've just thought of a compromise solution that would probably eliminate the need for several different packages. After seeing the crowded screen gone, I also thought that the TotE and HoF cutscenes aren't as magnificient as the original HoMM5 one. I'd miss them much though.
So here's the deal. My idea is to make another (third?!) version of the mod which still uses a unified campaign screen, but uses a workaround for the 'sorry guy, you run some mods so no multiplayer for you' issue and features a nostalgic cutscene, though none of the original ones.
The idea is: there will be one additional .exe, and this one will make use of a mod folder other than UserMODs. Firstly, this folder will contain a file that defines all the main menu changes. Secondly, it will host the two first chapters of the game - no need for the UserCampaign folder at all. Thirdly, it will host any other desirable user mods. Finally, none of these will load if you run the regular TotE executive so you won't get any synchronization errors while using it for multiplayer against non-modded opponents.
(Please note that your initial proposal still requires a second TotE intallation and quite obvious .exe switching to be able to play normal multiplayer games, so a second non-modded vanilla TotE executive serves the same cause but this approach saves a few Gb of disk space)
Once you launch the extra .exe, you basically see what's in your screenshot above there. All your favorite mods load as well. You can play all the three original chapters switching between them right in the main menu, also you can play any user campaigns and single player scenarios or do battle in multiplayer against people using the same mod and at the same time have a possibility to launch the same installation of TotE in the non-modded mode, effectively allowing for normal multiplayer, so the mods vs. multiplayer issue is gone for good.
Since there will always be some people in multiplayer games not using your wonderful package, the necessity to keep an non-modded TotE executive is quite obvious (because the mod ruins vanilla synchronization anyway). But hopefully most people will download and install it, so 90% of time you will be using the extra executive - offering all the possibilities in an all-in-one package, and gradually more people will migrate onto the new platform, so multiplayer will largely based off your mod. This results in both maximum multiplayer compatibility and almost no switching between the .exes.
What goes to the cutscene, I propose the HoMM5 one but with Inquisitor and Arch Devil replaced with Zealot and Arch Demon as to indicate the improvements introduced by the mod and the established link between the old content and new game mechanics. I know an Arch Demon isn't as showy as an Arch Devil, but at the same time he looks much more brutal (due to the lack of cartoonish flames replaced with a lacerated, ash-covered appearance and the sinister red glow) and after all, the dark red / brown color themes of both the Arch Demon and the Zealot fit each other perfectly as well as the overall color pattern of the whole cutscene. The original one, featuring an Arch Devil and a helmless Inquisitor looks quite 'heroic' and 'epic', while the new one will look merciless and brutal (let alone the holy book attached to the Zealot's chest).
As for the savegame slot issue, I wish you were of the same opinion with me about the three .exes. A single .exe means no support for different savegame folders, but maybe you could revamp the savegame screen to allow for more savegame slots fitting in. Though I will miss the neat savegame sorting into three folders.
I just don't like confusing the community by offering two almost indentical downloadable packages with the only difference in design (which will be ridiculously incompatible in multiplayer as well, though having virtually the same content), so I propose this compromise solution. Also your initial solution ruins the vanilla multiplayer and that's a no deal at all. You can have it your way with all the chapters selectable from the same screen, but still keep it compatible with regular multiplayer, as described above.
P.S. Also I could try to obtain the original English versions of HoF and HoMM5 and reverse engineer their installation packages and completely replace their content so they would install your portable HoF and HoMM5 campaigns atop TotE asking for a valid HoMM5/HoF CD-key in order to proceed with the installation, otherwise it will be cancelled. Or maybe submit the campaigns to Ubi and ask them to do the same. That's the best solution to any legal issues. But even if Ubi are too busy to care for that, I could do with the original installers, using their outer shell with embedded CD-key check to protect your campaigns against illegal use. The packages will only be a few Mbytes larger than a .zip file.
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Borsook
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 02:00 PM |
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Again, Quote:
let's not waste energy in arguing which is better.
Instead, let me show you how I see the menu campaign screen, with the 3 campaigns activated:
What resolution are these pictures taken at? Will the menus appear correctly at lower res?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 05, 2007 02:30 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 14:32, 05 Dec 2007.
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As for the savegame slot issue, I wish you were of the same opinion with me about the three .exes. A single .exe means no support for different savegame folders, but maybe you could revamp the savegame screen to allow for more savegame slots fitting in. Though I will miss the neat savegame sorting into three folders.
It is altogether just a matter of opinion which isn't worth arguing over. Plus, this version will probably be released too anyway, so there's no point in worrying about it.
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I just don't like confusing the community by offering two almost indentical downloadable packages with the only difference in design (which will be ridiculously incompatible in multiplayer as well, though having virtually the same content), so I propose this compromise solution. Also your initial solution ruins the vanilla multiplayer and that's a no deal at all. You can have it your way with all the chapters selectable from the same screen, but still keep it compatible with regular multiplayer, as described above.
I think it would be better to release all three versions, that way everyone is satisfied. Understand that no matter how convenient or safe it may seem, there will always be people who would prefer the quick-and-easy mod for TotE rather than a bunch of .exe files and seperate savegame folders which can create unnecessary time-wasting and confusion. I do not see the multiplayer community ever performing a total switchover to an unofficial mod which only affects the Single Player campaigns, either. Probably just my pessimism talking.
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Also I could try to obtain the original English versions of HoF and HoMM5 and reverse engineer their installation packages and completely replace their content so they would install your portable HoF and HoMM5 campaigns atop TotE asking for a valid HoMM5/HoF CD-key in order to proceed with the installation, otherwise it will be cancelled. Or maybe submit the campaigns to Ubi and ask them to do the same. That's the best solution to any legal issues. But even if Ubi are too busy to care for that, I could do with the original installers, using their outer shell with embedded CD-key check to protect your campaigns against illegal use. The packages will only be a few Mbytes larger than a .zip file.
This seems like risky territory again and even though I realise your way is safe enough, I think it would be best to just supply the package(s) for TotE and be done with it rather than toying around with the old versions.
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 02:55 PM |
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Edited by tobagua at 15:03, 05 Dec 2007.
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Hmmm, probably you don't get the idea that only one additional .exe is introduced in my compromise solution. Only one. It allows to play everything from a single menu. All the chapters, user campaigns, et cetera, et cetera. The regular executive isn't changed and launches TotE in a fashion that it doesn't recognize and activate the mod. So you can play vanilla multiplayer which is the most widespread and accepted form of HoMM multiplayer today.
If you installed this just as a mod, don't you see, it breaks vanilla multiplayer and you have to make a separate installation of TotE without the mod to be able to play multiplayer. Which naturally means .exe switching and a waste of a few Gb of disk space.
Three versions of the same package is too many in opinion, especially since none of these versions are mutually compatible in multiplayer. If a single version is issued, there's a chance that people will begin migrating from vanilla multiplayer to this mod, since it only affects the menus and changes nothing in the game mechanics. Provided the mod has only one variant, it could become a kind of an unofficial expansion to the 3.1 version of TotE and a widely accepted component just like the tournament edition and WoG mods for Heroes III.
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This seems like risky territory again and even though I realise your way is safe enough, I think it would be best to just supply the package(s) for TotE and be done with it rather than toying around with the old versions.
The only old data I use are the installer shells, see above. The content of the installers is wiped out and replaced with the modular data. The thing is that those installers know how to do CDkey checks for HoF and HoMM5, that's all. I don't think trying to protect Ubi's legacy from piracy on our own can be risky at all. If they let the mod be released without CD-checks, then there's no need in such actions, though.
All in all, my compromise solution is something more on Sfidanza's side that on mine, and you can't avoid using two executives if you want to play both the mod and regular multiplayer. You can't do both with a single .exe. So at least one extra .exe needs being added, because making copies of the whole game is an even more annoying practice.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 05, 2007 03:17 PM |
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Hmmm, probably you don't get the idea that only one additional .exe is introduced in my compromise solution. Only one. It allows to play everything from a single menu. All the chapters, user campaigns, et cetera, et cetera. The regular executive isn't changed and launches TotE in a fashion that it doesn't recognize and activate the mod. So you can play vanilla multiplayer which is the most widespread and accepted form of HoMM multiplayer today.
I am quite aware, thanks.
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If you installed this just as a mod, don't you see, it breaks vanilla multiplayer and you have to make a separate installation of TotE without the mod to be able to play multiplayer. Which naturally means .exe switching and a waste of a few Gb of disk space.
What about people who don't play multiplayer and would actually prefer just using the mod instead of a seperate .exe file, like myself?
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Three versions of the same package is too many in opinion, especially since none of these versions are mutually compatible in multiplayer. If a single version is issued, there's a chance that people will begin migrating from vanilla multiplayer to this mod, since it only affects the menus and changes nothing in the game mechanics. Provided the mod has only one variant, it could become a kind of an unofficial expansion to the 3.1 version of TotE and a widely accepted component just like the tournament edition and WoG mods for Heroes III.
There is no such thing as too many versions, choice is always a good thing. Plaster huge bold-text notices all over the thread that the third version allows you to use multiplayer as well if you want to, but let people make their own choice between the three mods all the same.
I still cannot see people who exclusively play multiplayer feeling the need to bother installing this single player mod at all, which is why it will probably not become widely accepted by all.
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 03:25 PM |
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Edited by tobagua at 15:46, 05 Dec 2007.
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What possible harm do you see in an additional .exe? If you play singleplayer only, you can safely delete the original TotE executive and get along with the modified one.
I aim at compatibility, since this mod can eventually become worldwide accepted and multiplayer will be mostly played with it installed via the modified .exe. For this to become widely recognized, only one version is required, that's all.
Most people play both multiplayer and singleplayer (custom scenarios by the most part), so the small caste of multiplayer-only players will have to migrate when the majority migrates.
Unification will make it possible to include the four most famous user fixes that bring a relief only comparable to a situation where you had an ass full of nails and suddenly there were none.
1. The first fix adds a button in the hero screen that brings up a fully functional Skill Wheel right ingame. Imagine how many Alt+Tab or Quit+Restart sequences it can save for a person who does some serious character planning. Unless you know all the skill dependencies by heart.
2. The second fix adds a screen button for all the necromancers which brings up a comprehensive table concerning Dark Energy costs for different types of undead and the creatures used as materials.
3. The third fix saves a lot of screen space in the battle mode. Quite self-explaining:
4. The fourth fix gives a much clearer idea about the city building requirements and dependencies.
None of these ever touch the game balance or mechanics, and all fit into the interface in a very immersive fashion. Moreover, those are a must for anybody who doesn't know all the formulas by heart. Just imagine having an ingame skill wheel in Multiplayer.
If there's a unified mod aimed at improving TotE to the limit instead of changing something, then people will tend to migrate to it.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 05, 2007 03:28 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 15:36, 05 Dec 2007.
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What possible harm do you see in an additional .exe? If you play singleplayer only, you can safely delete the original TotE executive and get along with the modified one.
I see no harm in it, I may just consider things easier when I'm working with one.
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I aim at compatibility, since this mod can eventually become worldwide accepted and multiplayer will be mostly played with it installed via the modified .exe. For this to become widely recognized, only one version is required, that's all.
Then what possible harm do you see in releasing two additional lesser-known versions to cater for everybody? You get your extra .exe files, I get my "throw it into the UserMods folder" version. Others get the big multiplayer version. There's no harm in that...
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Most people play both multiplayer and singleplayer (custom scenarios by the most part), so the small caste of multiplayer-only players will have to migrate when the majority migrates.
I would not consider the caste all that small. And if the majority doesn't migrate?
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Borsook
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 03:33 PM |
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What possible harm do you see in an additional .exe? If you play singleplayer only, you can safely delete the original TotE executive and get along with the modified one.
While, as I said before I like the idea of separate exes, the harm of what you propose above may come (for some users of course) when nival decides to release a patch for tote.
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 03:40 PM |
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Edited by tobagua at 15:44, 05 Dec 2007.
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2 Cepheus: see my previous message, I've just edited it. Several versions threatens possible unification, without unification we can't make a regular practice of the most useful user fixes for Heroes. The primary concern is the ingame skill wheel. You said you were concerned about load time and Alt+Tab doesn't work for everybody, so having an ingame skill wheel must be a really smart game addition in your opinion
After all, if you don't play multiplayer and somebody doesn't play singleplayer and somebody plays both, why not make a single version to satisfy everybody? A compromise is better than a multitude of mutually incompatible solutions. None of your rights or interests is harmed if there's an additional .exe, so no reason for reproaching.
2 Borsook: if a patch is released, then the whole lot of HoF and HoMM files have to be revised and part of them repackaged, since every HoMM5 patch addresses all the three chapters of the game. That's why I think there's no use releasing the mod prior to the 3.1 patch.
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