|
|
Bones_xa
Known Hero
|
posted September 13, 2011 01:46 AM |
|
|
Quote:
You can influence how your hero will develop (don't jump early on what it will probably be offered again and again),
Hmm, I never thought of trying this. Interesting, but wouldn't that be risky if its a valuable skill?
|
|
zombiewhacker
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted September 13, 2011 02:10 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
I thought leadership gave you the morale skill, not luck.
What he was trying to say is, the skills leadership AND luck can both be easily "replaced" by artefacts, so taking them as secondary skills is a waste.
Okay, gotcha.
Quote:
Quote:
Anyway, sometimes certain artifacts on the map can only be acquired by someone with the Leadership skill. Equipped luck or morale boosters won't help you there.
You really should upgrade your version of H3, because that "feature" isn't present anymore on the latest upgrades..
I've got both, actually. You're right, though, they fixed that "feature" for the expansion packs.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted September 13, 2011 02:35 AM |
|
|
@Bones_xa
Choices have to be made, sometimes they pay, other times you just unlucky. But if you click without taking the time to evaluate situation, then you rely only on luck.
Suppose you play a knight and get at early level up the choice between air and logistic. Hard choice. But there are greater chances that logistic will be offered again than air. Depends also of your playing style/faction. Logistic will help a lot in early game, air in middle/late.
Suppose you play a barb and at early level up logistic and wisdom are offered. Logistic will be offered again more than wisdom, but this time you have to choose logistic, because you need it earlier than wisdom, which has anyway good chances to appear again.
The choice to be made does not depends exclusively on skills probabilities, but also on your priorities. That's why it is so addictive.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
|
posted September 13, 2011 08:47 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Suppose you play a barb and at early level up logistic and wisdom are offered. Logistic will be offered again more than wisdom, but this time you have to choose logistic, because you need it earlier than wisdom, which has anyway good chances to appear again.
It not only has a GOOD chance to appear again, but a 100% chance! Wisdom is offered every 6th level again on might heroes (iirc). So you should never take wisdom over log or air or earth...
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted September 13, 2011 02:27 PM |
|
|
Thanks, I had the vague souvenir Wisdom is special but could not find where I saw it. Good to know.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Supahelli
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted December 04, 2014 02:44 PM |
|
|
Usualy I pick the following:
tactic, offense, logistic, armorer, air, pathfinding, earth, the 8. is most time a skill im forced to pickbut I guess scouting and artellery (for stronghold) is my first choice in this case.
Well I avoid wisdom most of time, since the best spells are lv 1 and u usualy find a tomoe.
|
|
dalgo
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted December 11, 2014 11:51 AM |
|
|
Mikai said:
Which is your favourite combination of the 8 skills you would like your main hero to have?
Yes, I know it depends of map size and the castle you start with, if it is a might hero or a magic one etc. but generaly what is your option?
I prefer a long game on an XL map so my favourite hero skills are mostly travel based. In priority order they are:
Wisdom (essential)
Logistics
Earth Magic (Slow, Resurrection and Town Portal)
Air Magic (Chain Lightning, Fly and Dimension Door)
Offense
Leadership
Pathfinding
Water Magic
I will also need one hero with the Scholar skill and I'll take Navigation over Pathfinding on an ocean map.
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted December 11, 2014 01:15 PM |
|
|
Angelito said:
It not only has a GOOD chance to appear again, but a 100% chance! Wisdom is offered every 6th level again on might heroes
I always assumed this information had been shared by the original coders somewhere; a few days ago I finally found how it was obtained reading "On the internals of offered skills when leveling-up a hero" (http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=17812&PID=354205#focus) and I wanted to thank Dimis, LegendMaker and Xarfax111 for the tremendous amount of work they did to reveal it. Dimis efforts are probably worthy of a Maths degree.
Thank you guys.
P.S. Is good to look at these pages a day after knowing Ubi mention they needed 30.000 hours-work to poorly re-design some features of our beloved H3.
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted December 11, 2014 01:28 PM |
|
Edited by Galaad at 13:47, 11 Dec 2014.
|
dalgo said:
I prefer a long game on an XL map so my favourite hero skills are mostly travel based. In priority order they are:
Wisdom (essential)
Logistics
Earth Magic (Slow, Resurrection and Town Portal)
Air Magic (Chain Lightning, Fly and Dimension Door)
Offense
Leadership
Pathfinding
Water Magic
I will also need one hero with the Scholar skill and I'll take Navigation over Pathfinding on an ocean map.
Hey that's pretty close to the skills I'd pick on XL maps if I play Tower. Just replace Leadership with Armorer
Water I rather pick it with a Knight Hero for Mass Prayer (I know Wisdom needed but sometimes such choices aren't that bad  ).
Anyway with time I really don't optimize much anymore, I enjoy best having multiple heroes and pick skills I tended to avoid before, less power but more fun, for me at least.
BloodSucker said:
a few days ago I finally found how it was obtained reading "On the internals of offered skills when leveling-up a hero" ([url=a few days ago I finally found how it was obtained reading "On the internals of offered skills when leveling-up a hero" (http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=17812&PID=354205#focus) and I wanted to thank Dimis, LegendMaker and Xarfax111 for the tremendous amount of work they did to reveal it.
Hear, hear !
____________
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
posted December 12, 2014 08:29 PM |
|
Edited by dimis at 20:30, 12 Dec 2014.
|
bloodsucker said:
I wanted to thank Dimis, LegendMaker and Xarfax111 for the tremendous amount of work they did to reveal it. Dimis efforts are probably worthy of a Maths degree.
Thank you guys.
P.S. Is good to look at these pages a day after knowing Ubi mention they needed 30.000 hours-work to poorly re-design some features of our beloved H3.
You are very welcome! Also, let's not forget maretti, Ecoris, angelito, Binabik and of course AlexSpl. Everyone in that thread had put lots of effort and had contributed a lot!
As of your last question, let them release the new version and we can go over a few things if necessary. What may break will be the limited skill trees that are currently generated. However, that's not a big problem because there is a wider model for prediction anyway. So, even if new random number generators are used on level-ups, we can already predict their long term behavior (even if we give a probability distribution over the outcomes on individual level-ups). I doubt that they are going to change the whole level-up mechanism, so things like getting Wisdom offered every 6 levels should still be there, plus a few more exceptions. Anyway, let's wait and see. Perhaps a few test simple test cases will be sufficient. I am not very worried though about the big picture. 
____________
The empty set
|
|
looom
Adventuring Hero
Flying High
|
|
posted December 13, 2014 12:44 PM |
|
Edited by looom at 12:47, 13 Dec 2014.
|
Offense
Armorer
Air/Earth magic
Wisdom
Logistics
Earth/Air magic
Archery (priority varies, might not even get it if I'm playing something like Inferno)
anything useful, most likely Tactics
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted December 13, 2014 04:49 PM |
|
|
dimis said:
You are very welcome! Also, let's not forget maretti, Ecoris, angelito, Binabik and of course AlexSpl. Everyone in that thread had put lots of effort and had contributed a lot!
Yes, sorry that I failed to mention you guys.
I wasn't aware you were still an active member but since you are I have an observation to make.
You dismissed magic heroes under the pretext their are less used as mains but if we believe these exceptions were created by the same person who created the all skill tree or at least they were an entangled group of developers, don't you find likely they have used the same aproach (with other groups of skills) for magic heroes?
Imagine how differently we would play magic heroes if we were sure that Logistics will always be presented at the same level or that Offense, Tactics and Armourer will be presented alternatively every X levels.
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted December 14, 2014 03:17 PM |
|
|
Well, I am not an active member any more. I showed up once I heard of the "official" HD HoMM3 and came here to see what people say about it. As of the `HC Supporter' that you see next to my name, let's say I feel that I still owe a few things to this forum.
Other than that, magic heroes are of no special interest to me. In fact we had concluded what is happening to them together with Alex, but I think we/I never wrote everything down here on the forum. So, if my memory serves me correctly, there is no such thing as exceptions on "might" groups of skills like offense, tactics, logistics and so on. The same exception groups are used for magic heroes too; i.e. Wisdom and Magic Schools. I think the only difference is that the period in which these exceptions show up is either the same period as in might heroes or half of that (or something along these lines; it's really a long time ago). In other words, exceptions for magic schools either show up every 2 levels or every 4 levels, and the exception on Wisdom is either every 3 levels or every 6 levels. In any case, it is very easy to verify all these things. Unfortunately I can not do it at the moment - I have no Windows installation anywhere near me. Perhaps I will come back to this one in the next 2-3 weeks so that we can have it written down somewhere, but meanwhile you - or anybody else - can do their own experiments and post their findings. I will of course revive the `internals' thread if I do so.
Now, while all the above are very easy to verify with a few experiments, there were details that were pending. Essentially these details have to do with the actual implementation and having the ability to predict the actual skill tree (for magic heroes) after a few level ups. I was not really interested in exploring this, so I left it as it was.
The other reason that I did not write about these things, is because eventually I should have backed up my answers with concrete numbers (*), which essentially meant writing more code for the various cases. Since I did not have the time back then, and neither do I have the time now for something that does not appear to be anywhere near the top of my priority `to-do' list, I reserved from posting.
(*) What one really wants to see, is something like this (AR for might heroes) so that there is an actual comparison for magic heroes too.
____________
The empty set
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted December 14, 2014 10:48 PM |
|
|
dimis said:
meanwhile you - or anybody else - can do their own experiments and post their findings.
Thank you for your awser.
My knowledge of maths is about 9th grade. Most of the theory in your tests I can follow but to put it up with a test myself I would have at least to go back to high-school, probably reincarnate.
But if u already know my guess isn't truth and probabilities to recieve magic schools are even increased then magic heroes are really a lose bet cause then there is almost no chance to avoid getting the useless magic skills, like experience seems to show.
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted December 15, 2014 12:42 AM |
|
|
Actually we can verify my general claim with just a handful of experiments per faction. All we have to do is to follow the AR (Always Right) policy; i.e. on every level-up we pick the right option (i.e. the new skill that is offered). Then by level 8 all the exception groups will hit the hero because the waiting time is always less than 6 level-ups.
Now, if my memory also serves me correctly, there is one class of magic heroes that behave as if they were might heroes; i.e. Magic Schools every (at most) 4 levels and Wisdom every (at most) 6 levels. If we go through the relevant posts in the forum I think this is actually mentioned somewhere. I think this has to do with Elementalists, but do not trust me blindly here.
Finally, for the tests, say we pick an Elementalist and another magic hero from any other faction. Then we can do just 10-20 level ups and record all the offers on the left slot (upgrade) and all the offers on the right slot (new skill). We follow the policy to always pick the new skill. This will verify the period for the exception groups that I was referring to. It's really easy, I just can not help and do even such a simple experiment because I have no Windows-machine anywhere near me and it is sort of a pain to install Windows+Heroes on Parallels right now given my upcoming schedule. But feel free to do the above and post results. Seriously, with our current knowledge, I think that 10-20 level ups per faction are enough so that we can recall what was happening in the big picture. No probabilities, no maths.
____________
The empty set
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
posted December 15, 2014 01:47 AM |
|
Edited by dimis at 01:48, 15 Dec 2014.
|
Actually, we do not need to check anything; here we are.
+3/+3 for Wisdom/Magic Schools for all the magic heroes, apart from Elementalists who have a +6/+4 period just like might heroes.
____________
The empty set
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted December 15, 2014 02:03 AM |
|
|
dimis said:
Actually we can verify my general claim with just a handful of experiments per faction. All we have to do is to follow the AR (Always Right) policy;
I'm guessing you are not very familiar with WoG, right?
There is a "No skill limit" patch. Since I believe the order in wich skills are presented is not modified we could test the AR policy for 26 levels each hero and we would have the exact position where a specific skill was offered to every hero, this would also test if in fact there are differences betwen heroes in the same class and all.
The only problem I see here is to be sure neither WoG nor the patch modify the skill three but I guess Salamandre or Bersy know that, they have been envolved with the project for years.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted December 15, 2014 02:16 AM |
|
|
|
Wog uses same text files, so nothing is changed in probabilities. But if you use no skills limit plugin, the results after the eight skill will be random, they are erm picked, not on txt files. So not an accurate way to test.
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted December 15, 2014 02:20 AM |
|
Edited by dimis at 02:26, 15 Dec 2014.
|
You don't need to test again anything. I just gave the link with the statement by AlexSpl for the exception of Elementalists.
Also, I am not sure what the "No skills limit" patch is, but the question at hand has nothing to do with probabilities at this point. Hope it makes sense.
____________
The empty set
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted December 15, 2014 04:08 AM |
|
|
dimis said:
You don't need to test again anything. I just gave the link with the statement by AlexSpl for the exception of Elementalists.
Also, I am not sure what the "No skills limit" patch is, but the question at hand has nothing to do with probabilities at this point. Hope it makes sense.
Sorry, when I started to wrote the last post you didn't had finnished yours, so I didn't notice it until now.
I just finnished one test for each priest and in fact the first magic school was always presented at level 3.
Their results are so bad that I guess I will never pick any magic hero except necromancers and elementalists.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
