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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: The 8 skills of a hero
Thread: The 8 skills of a hero This thread is 30 pages long: 1 10 ... 19 20 21 22 23 ... 30 · «PREV / NEXT»
looom
looom


Adventuring Hero
Flying High
posted December 15, 2014 11:29 AM

shouldn't such discussions belong in the Heroes 3.5 board?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted December 15, 2014 11:35 AM

Certainly not.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted December 15, 2014 01:20 PM

looom said:
shouldn't such discussions belong in the Heroes 3.5 board?


Just because I used the word WoG (looking for a way to extend a test for SoD, BTW) doesn't mean the thread is now infected.

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BlackMagik
BlackMagik


Adventuring Hero
posted December 15, 2014 11:12 PM

I seriously doubt the game devs figured on players tearing into the nuts and bolts of game mechanics as has happened.

It's too bad the devs didn't leave in a feature that was present in Might & Magic : Gates to Another World (yes I really am that old)...the Brain Detox temple in Middlegate allowed the player to erase unwanted skills---once for any character.

Much of the angst about acquiring skills could've been eliminated by this single feature.

It's obvious that what skills a player chooses has a number of parameters. Style of play; available heroes; type and size of map; single or multi-player; faction; availability of artifacts; etc.....

It's also obvious that there are certain skills that are much better than others...some that are darn near essential...some that are near useless...and some that are in between.

It's certainly been an education reading through this entire thread (an I'm serious about that) and kudos to the folks doing the research into the mechanics of skill offerings and level ups

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Trek
Trek

Tavern Dweller
posted January 29, 2015 10:17 AM

Alright, I am quite unsure why people are so adamant about Might heroes and Tactics. I am still not sold on these ideas and feel more at home with Magic anyways. Yes, Orb of Inhibition is nasty, but I have rarely encountered it.

I am by no means a noob, as stated in my first post in another thread, but without further ado:

Wisdom
Intelligence
Logistics
Earth Magic
Air Magic
Fire Magic
Water Magic
Sorcery

Anything else feels like a compromise, barring Pathfinding in certain maps.
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kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted January 29, 2015 01:28 PM

People are adamant about might heroes and tactics because of experience. And it alone. If magic heroes were better on general basis, they would prove to be better over the years and years of multiplayer games.

The above holds true only for certain conditions, which is, large or bigger maps, and moderate restriction on hit and run. As far as I know HW is played with very little restrictions to magic, and yet magic heroes which are main do not prove to be better. They have their uses, but leading huge army to a victory over another huge army of opposing player is rarely one of them.

Among your chosen skills sorcery strikes me as not so useful, even among magic heroes. Armorer would allow you to last longer, tactics to protect your troops, all of which are better than patheticly looking 15% of damage...

Besides, having all 4 magic schools ia cool, allows for many strategies and tactics, but the problem is that most of the tactics allowed will never be used. It's better to devise a strategy working for most cases with greater efficiency (earth+air+offense+armorer) than one that works always but with smaller efficiency (earth+air+water+fire).

That being said, it is still the matter of preference which skills you choose, and on what basis. But if your criterium is current multiplayer efficiency then purely magical approach won't do it as well as might one.

Cheers

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Trek
Trek

Tavern Dweller
posted January 29, 2015 02:16 PM

Um, ok...

I've been playing this game since it was released dude... It's bizarre that a large number of people seem convinced that Might is strictly better. You assert certain information as being universal truth and my experiences differ greatly from what you state. But thanks, I guess.

How about you be less condescending and dismissive? I'm sure you've passed me off as someone who doesn't know what they're talking about already though, given what you have said.

Oh well, I maintain that my skillset works for me.
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kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted January 29, 2015 07:19 PM
Edited by kicferk at 19:20, 29 Jan 2015.

I am and was sure you had certain experience with the game, and that is why I only gave short examples of skills more useful IMO than some of yours, without specific details.

I might have sounded a bit rude, but please understand, that might vs magic is not a debate that came in here in recent days. It has been argued over and over again, with people advocating magic usually being familiar with singleplayer or hotseat games, but less familiar with competetive online multiplayer. Your claim that "it has always worked for you" only seems to show that you are one of them.

To expand my point on "experience" part: if magic heroes were better, then someone should have noted that, just as you did. He would then proceed to use this knowledge in online games to kick butts of experienced but closed-minded people using might heroes only. Then some people would notice how he kicked their butts, and they would figure out, at least some of them, that magic heroes rule.

However, the case is quite an opposite situation. In rare cases magic heroes are a reason for win, but in large majority, they are not. There was a tournament held recenly on Heroes World, War of mages, with only mage heroes allowed to be main. Its victor, Maretti, won all of his games but one, using the most might variant of magic heroes: battle mages. If truly mage heroes were better, it would not be a likely or even reasonable outcome, given skill of his opponents.

Now, back to subject, I think I mentioned that you are free to continue to use whatever skills you want to, I don't see how i could forbid you to do that. But I would also like you to answer some of my points, namely: questionable usefulness of sorcery and redundance of having all schools of magic at the same time.

Cheers

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 29, 2015 08:03 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 20:22, 29 Jan 2015.

Trek said:
I am by no means a noob,





yes you are. This is why life is an extraordinary experience, all the days we discover we are noobs in some field, thus have the opportunity to learn.

Here you go, listen to kicferk and say thanks yoda.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 29, 2015 08:30 PM

kicferk said:
There was a tournament held recenly on Heroes World, War of mages, with only mage heroes allowed to be main. Its victor, Maretti, won all of his games but one, using the most might variant of magic heroes: battle mages.


Well, knowing Maretti it's even a surprise he considered to play in a contest where he has to opt for Gundula or Dessa over some low-life barbarian like Gurnisson or Jabarkas.
If there is a guy in the world who doesn't agree with latest opinion is our champion.

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BlackMagik
BlackMagik


Adventuring Hero
posted January 30, 2015 02:46 AM
Edited by BlackMagik at 02:52, 30 Jan 2015.

Quote:
It's bizarre that a large number of people seem convinced that Might is strictly better. You assert certain information as being universal truth and my experiences differ greatly from what you state.


Simple logic will tell you that what everyone is saying is the truth.

As designed by the NWC dev team, any melee hero can cast any spell that a specialist mage can...provided they take Wisdom as one of their skills. Furthermore, any melee hero can use high-level magik items like the Tomes, Wizard's hat, etc....

Every melee hero starts the game with 6 attribute points...spellcasters start with 5....

Melee heroes progress faster in the attk/def categories that are critical to close combat success...

Several melee heroes have Offense or Armorer as a specialty, which gives them an even bigger edge in close combat. No spellcaster has either one of those as a specialty, although they can choose one or both as skills if offered....

There are no inherent skills that any mage hero has that a melee hero can't have (although there are two specialties-Intelligence and Sorcery-that they can't).

So when you put all those together, why would you ever play a specialist mage when you can have what any of them have....plus a close combat advantage?

Now if the dev team had done traditional D & D things like restrict the kinds of spells a Knight or Barbarian, for instance, could learn;  and imposed class restrictions on equipment (no Tomes, no Wizard's Hat, etc); then things might be more equal.

Even then, you might have to implement something like a Spell Power number (by, say, combining Intelligence level & Sorcery level) to determine how likely an opponent is able to resist a spell (over and above what Magic Resistance grants) or remove one.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 30, 2015 03:42 AM

BlackMagik said:
Several melee heroes have Offense or Armorer as a specialty, which gives them an even bigger edge in close combat. No spellcaster has either one of those as a specialty...


Ops, quite untrue!!! Gundula is a magic hero. One of the only two Offense specialists is a magic hero, as well as one of the three Logistics specialists (Dessa). Wich cames to prove something else: the most might of all races has a definitive advantage in heroes quality, including the best two magic class skill specialists.

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BlackMagik
BlackMagik


Adventuring Hero
posted January 30, 2015 10:31 AM
Edited by BlackMagik at 11:15, 30 Jan 2015.

Quote:
Ops, quite untrue


Technically, you are probably right. But I've personally never considered the Battle Mage as in the same spellcasting class as a Wizard/Witch/Druid/etc. Skill advancement from level 2-9, a BM has a 50/50 split might/magik; at 10+, it remains the same 50/50 split. Every other spellcasting class is slanted heavily to magik over might from level 2-9; and less so at level 10+ except Necro and Heretic which go to a 50/50 split like a BM.

Still doesn't negate that the game is slanted heavily in favor of melee heroes because they can equal, in magik use, anything a pure mage can plus have a close combat edge...

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 30, 2015 03:20 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 15:54, 30 Jan 2015.

BlackMagik said:
I've personally never considered the Battle Mage as in the same spellcasting class as a Wizard/Witch/Druid/etc.


Ok, but in this case I can argue that Neela is not a might hero for the same reasons. Alchemist have the quite the same probabilities with might and magic prims as Battle Mages...
We have to agree on desagreeing. Where we agree and was the crucial point of the dscussion is: might is favoured over magic. They even cheat it out by giving better heroes to Stronghold or making sure Wisdom and magic schools are offered to might heroes while natural fighting skills are extremely rare in most magic heroes skill tree (and here is where you're most right: not for Battle Mages, they easly get Offense, Armourer and Tactics).


P.S.:About that "I'm not a noob" from Trek...
Quote from Angelito in this same thread in May 2005 "You try to break (in Jebus) in the middle week 3 day 1 in most of the times...". As you may know, standard break for elite players in Jebus is now week 2 days 2 to 4 and I saw it more then once day 7 week 1.
So, tactics have evolved a lot in the last 10 years and skilled players maintain same position "snowy might completly overpowers magic".
I was thinking about Salamandre's sugestion to ban Solmyr and maybe we should make a petition to nerf him to Lightning Bolt specialist in future editions of HD. It is true, most of us (me included) thought for long he was the model for an hero while he is quite miserable when compared to Offense and Armourer specialists as well as Log and even many magic heroes like Brissa, Luna and Ciele.

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BlackMagik
BlackMagik


Adventuring Hero
posted January 30, 2015 06:49 PM
Edited by BlackMagik at 19:06, 30 Jan 2015.

Quote:
Ok, but in this case I can argue that Neela is not a might hero for the same reasons.


An Alchemist's primary skill progression is 60/40 (might/magik) through all levels. At level 10+, the progression is the same as any other might hero except for Death Knight and Demoniac. At levels 2-9, her progression in might primary skills is higher than any in the mage class. She is a might hero, AFAIAC....

As far as agreeing to disagree...I didn't disagree with your point about Battle Mages, as they are classified in with the mage group. But their skill progression is unlike any other in that group and is closer to that of a might class. Which leads my personal opinion to be that they play more like a might hero than a magik one

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted January 30, 2015 07:14 PM

Trek said:
Um, ok...

I've been playing this game since it was released dude... It's bizarre that a large number of people seem convinced that Might is strictly better. You assert certain information as being universal truth and my experiences differ greatly from what you state. But thanks, I guess.
...
The big difference here might be you have never encountered a human opponent during your long history of playing Heroes 3. Computer player on H3 is so weak, you can just click next turn for a month at least (L or XL maps...) and just start your gameplay on month 2 and still win 98% of all games.
Try to battle against an experienced online player and learn the difference. Don't be too surprised if he will knock on your door week 2 or 3 and swipe you out of your town when you just started making party because you have managed to build your capitol just right away...

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 30, 2015 07:38 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 20:53, 30 Jan 2015.

BlackMagik said:
Which leads my personal opinion to be that they play more like a might hero than a magik one


Well, I believe you didn't read the thread where Dimis tests the way wisdom and magic schools are offered but it goes like this:
Might Heroes recive a chance to learn Wisdom at level 6 (necessarly) if it has not been offered before, they will recieve it again every 6 levels (necessarly) if not before. The same goes for one (at random betwen possible) magic school every 4 levels. This leads to: ALL magic heroes will have the chance to learn Wisdom and AT LEAST one magic school betwen the 8 skills. So, I tought maybe magic heroes would have the same possibility to learn some might skills only we are disregarding it...
Tests show the oposite, Wisdom and one magic schools are presented every THREE levels; Gundula, Dessa and Terek included. Only as they have great starting skills you don't feel so affected by the problem of having to choose magic school after magic school if you don't want to make the amazing choice betwen mysticism and eagle eye.
Battle mages are better then other magic classes (true) because they get good might classes more easly but the main difference is BECAUSE (except for sorcery and eagle eye specialists, crap) they start with a usefull might skill. Compare them to Alchemists; Wisdom and Offense; Wisdom and Resistence; Wisdom and Tactics versus Armourer and Scholar, Offense and Mysticism, Scholar and Intelligence, Advanced Scholar. It's not so much that they behave like might but that they start with skills that lead to better development.


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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 30, 2015 10:48 PM

Armorer and offense specialists should be banned from multiplayer, for fair sake. I never understood they act like damsels in wlc when it comes to logistic or mulich, when it comes to red rush or misplaced guards, yet they find absolutely normal to be lucky to the point of getting the hero whose 7 stacks will inflict xx% more damage, every battle round. Incomprehensible to me.

As for skills, there are two patterns: multi and solo. In multi I place also the random maps, because this is why they were made for. In solo I place custom scenarios, and here indeed you will succeed if you use the pattern "all schools" + intelligence. AI in custom maps is boosted thousand times more than human player, and armorer/offense will not help, where cheats as berserk and force field will. + intelligence to support the long and costly resurrect phase.

But one can be an expert in beating AI and still be a complete noob on what is best to pick, then lose in no time to someone experienced online.
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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
posted January 30, 2015 11:01 PM

Best skills ever:

Eagle Eye
Scouting
Luck
Mysticism
Navigation
Learning
First Aid
Scholar



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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 30, 2015 11:13 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 23:21, 30 Jan 2015.

Salamandre said:
Armorer and offense specialists should be banned from multiplayer, for fair sake. I never understood they act like damsels in wlc when it comes to logistic or mulich, when it comes to red rush or misplaced guards, yet they find absolutely normal to be lucky to the point of getting the hero whose 7 stacks will inflict xx% more damage, every battle round. Incomprehensible to me.


Agreed.

Salamandre said:
But one can be an expert in beating AI and still be a complete noob on what is best to pick, then lose in no time to someone experienced online.


Worst, maybe it only happened to me but the first games I played against humans I remember to "instintively" try to trick them with fodder. It didn't work

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