|
| Thread: Factions: The good and the bad |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
posted December 01, 2007 10:45 AM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 12:45, 02 Dec 2007.
|
Factions: The good and the bad
Note : There are heroes which changes some aspects of a town 'the bad' list. Not including specific heroes for this list.
Sylvan - The Good. Quick units - Not including artifacts (mini or not) the overall inititive of Sylvan is impressive. The units seem to be balanced as a whole, and have a very good synergy. Seiges - With their ranged and casting units the Sylvan be dangerous on either side of the seige. They don't have to come in and get you if seigeing. Ranged - Though they don't have the most number of ranged units, the ones they do have are deadly. Luck - Even without Ultimate Luck, they seem to benifit from luck more then a lot of other towns.
The Bad - Fragile: with a few exceptions they generally have terrible defense and low hitpoints. Dark - Some dark spells can really cause problems for the Sylvan army. Wood - Never seem to have enough of it, can really slow down production. Has to return to town often to change enemies.
Inferno - The Good - Free additional forces in a fight. Can block ranged units, Can shut down a lot of enemy casters (with familars). Creatures have some very interesting specials. Seiges are a lot less hard as they can create troops inside the castle.
The Bad - Dark - No real counter for it. Without Urgash's skills gating can be slow (it is also hard to get that skill) High inititive creatures can overcome this. Ranged - 1 ranged unit only. If the units gated into a castle are destroyed, they have a hard time breaching a castle.
Necromancer - The Good - Can limit or elemenate deaths due to creeping. Can add resource free units to army on a regular basis. Can use all of the other factions creatures by transforming them into undead. Dark magic - They get it very easily. Morale - they never have to worry about it. Mark of the Necromancer - can overcome mana shortage. Really only has to return to town a couple of times. For spells. Everything else can be done by a secondary hero or two. Teir 7's ability to have raise dead cast on it (and reclaimed units remain after combat) is more benificial then ressurection for other teir 7's due to hp and mana cost.
The bad - Morale - they never get it. Mana- they have mana problems, so something like familiars can hamper their casting. Though with MoTN they can reclaim that mana. Seventh teir creature dwelling is expensive, and the creature is not as strong as most other 7th teir. Light spells can really ruin their day.
Haven - The good - Peasants ... though one of the weakest of the teir 1's they produce gold. With a single certain hero and all the peasants in the army, they can have a good secondary source of gold. (Especially useful from external creature generators, since they take time to pay for themselves otherwise) Training- Making weaker units into stronger units, which imo is a good thing. Once they get going it is difficult to halt them.
The bad - Getting going. Yes, it is possible, but is difficult. Expensive - they are one of the most expensive factions around. Especially with the training (good thing about those peasants huh). Ultimate is one of the worse in the game.
Dungeon - The Good - Fast (and quick) units- Not only do they move often (high init) but they can move far (high speed). Their attack and damage is impressive, as well as their destructive power. Their low teir creatures are as dangerous as some mid teir creatures of other towns. They can use other towns creatures to increase production of 2 of their own creature types.
The Bad - Low growth for most creatures. The increase of their own cretures quickly grows to insane requirements. (Ie 100 black dragons to get a +1 blood fury). Low hp and defense for some key units. Destructive looses a lot in late game. Warlock's luck is harder to get. Limited range ability. Limited range (not counting spells) ability.
Stonghold - The Good -Adabtability. Great hero-creature synergy. Warcries- They can do many interesting things..Damage and attack are high. Teir 7 can attack castle walls. Attacking does more then just damage for them. High creature production. Rage is damage absorber as well as make units get stronger. After a few levels, unstoppable creepers. Can sell creatures for profit in slave market.
The Bad- Very weak vs dark, even with shatter ability. Teir 7 can hurt own units. Tier 1's can turn on you. Without rage, they are some of the weeker creatures. 1 ranged (not counting goblin throwing) and 1 flyer (not counting the thrown goblins). Slow creeping start up. Defending or waiting hurts them. (though just moving a square can fix the waiting issue)
Fortress - The Good - High hitpoints and high defense generally for creatures. Runes are very adaptive. Can Dracogeddon (if you can locate the spell). Castle withstands seiges better. Free creatures when somebody seiges their castle. Potent fire magic even when sp low do to specials (mark of fire, ignite, ect). With a few points their amazing defense becomes amazing offense (the prepair perk). Also with ultimate, their enemies always do half damage further increasing the benifit of their defense and hitpoints. The one exception would be Rangers with Ultimate Luck (the two cancell each other out). Luck based skills may benifit them more then most other towns.
The Bad - A bit on the slow side (both speed and init) without runes. 2 ranged units, but one of them is rather weak ranged (but a good special that can compensate) If catapault goes down, may be difficult for them to seige. Unlike mages, spending resources to buff their units results in temporary advantages. Very resource dependant.
Academy - The Good - Can creep effectively with few units. Can get to near limitless mana. Can learn every spell (their ultimate). Can overcome most of the "The Bad". Mini-arties can change the outcome of any battle in their favor. Great creature synergy.
The Bad - Generally weak units. Resource dependance. (Maybe the fewest difficulties of any town)..Not all tactics work all the time. Ultimate does not give mass spells or perks (though it does cast them at expert level).
These probably are not all, and are generally subjective...but please give us your idea of what is good and what is bad about the various towns.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
posted December 01, 2007 12:17 PM |
|
|
Quote:
The Bad - Banish - hurts them bad. Dark - No real counter for it. Without certain skills gating is slow. Ranged - 1 ranged unit only. No flyers. If the units gated into a castle are destroyed, they have a hard time breaching a castle.
1. Banish is not the killer it used to be... besides if the enemy hero uses Banish you as the Inferno player can be reaaaally happy as it only damages your gated unit which is much better than him doing something against your real stacks.
2.There are no skills that speed up gateing... But if you ment to say it's slow it depends on your unit insofar... Nightmares and Familiars arrive quite quickly the rest is sometimes much to slow yes...
3.All the Devils are Flyers. Teleport count's as flying. It even says they are flyers in their description.
Quote:
Haven - The good - Peasants ... though one of the weakest of the teir 1's they produce gold. With a single certain hero and all the peasants in the army, they can have a good secondary source of gold.
Ehm what... ~100~200~ gold a day won't make that big a diffrence. Not even in the long run I mean the town hall gives you 2000 a day.
Quote:
Dungeon
The Bad - Creeping...though it recently has gotten a boost.
Ok I'm not a skilled Dungeon Player but Dungeon is one of the best creepers in this game... if not THE best with Stalkers. But even without Stalkers they are very good creepers.
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 12:23 PM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 12:31, 01 Dec 2007.
|
Quote:
There are no skills that speed up gateing
Not even Urgash's Call? (Or whatever the insta gate ability is).
Sorry, don't count teleporters as flyers. Just me though.
And while peasants don't really produce that much gold, that is true, every little bit helps. I did note it was a secondary source of income (ie not to be used as a main source).
Dungeon can creep, especially now, don't get me wrong. It's just a bit harder then some of the other towns. Though I also am not the best Dungeon player.
Edit : And I've played games where I was able to pump out 2000 gold a day with peasants. I had over 1k peasants, that with training as much as possible. Just never lost a single peasant. Did have a lot of external huts that produced peasants however. Feel free to give your view on the towns. After all, this is just my experiences with the towns.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 12:34 PM |
|
Edited by Nirual at 12:37, 01 Dec 2007.
|
some notes on undeads:
Good: all units are immune to bad morale effects, many Dark magic curses (Decay, Confusion, Frenzy, Puppet Master and of course Curse of the Netherworld) and poison.
Bad: also immune to certain Light magic spells, Regeneration and Ressurection (Divine Vengance however is highly effective due to the high growths of rather weak creatures).
Also, Fortress has 2 ranged units, not one.
____________
In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 12:42 PM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 12:44, 01 Dec 2007.
|
Yes, Fortress has two units. Corrected the statement. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I will also fix the teleporter/flying thing (by specifying they do have a teleporter). Much appreciated.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 12:49 PM |
|
|
Quote:
The Bad - Fragile: with a few exceptions they generally have terrible defense and low hitpoints.
Yeah, like unkillable wind dancers, sturdy unicorns and amazing treants?  Druid and dragons' survivability is ok, if you picked ossir, arcane archers' survivability is also acceptable for a ranged low level unit. So in fact the only truly fragile unit is the dryad.
Quote:
Since their heroes also don't help much with the defense part
!?
Defense is their prime stat..
Quote:
Their attack and damage is impressive
Their attack is impressive, yes, but they never managed to impress me in combat when it comes to damage. Of course we're talking 'bout units.
Quote:
as well as their destructive power. Their low teir creatures are as dangerous as some mid teir creatures of other towns.
Not really.. they are rather worthless, to be honest.
Quote:
They can use other towns creatures to increase production of 2 of their own creature types.
and you need to sacrifice 400 black dragons to get +7 growth at furies, or something similiar.
Quote:
Creeping...though it recently has gotten a boost.
I'm surprised you even mention it - Best creeping in game, on pair with academy. It's definitely NOT their weak point.
Quote:
1 ranged (and not a strong one at that)
That is good, since runes don't work with ranged units.
Quote:
(Maybe the fewest difficulties of any town)..
yeah That's why I've decided I switch to academy.
Good analysis, just fix those mentioned above 
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 12:54 PM |
|
|
Nice thread, just a few things off like Doomforge and Azagal mentioned And teleporter is pretty much the same as flyer, they even get bonuses meant for flying units. It's cooler though 
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 12:57 PM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 12:59, 01 Dec 2007.
|
Editing a few things mentioned. Keep the help comming 
____________
Message received.
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 01:01 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Not even Urgash's Call? (Or whatever the insta gate ability is).
Well ok... But that one is not available most of the time...
Quote:
Sorry, don't count teleporters as flyers. Just me though.
Well as it makes no diffrence gameplaywise and initiativewise (they are effected by artifacts that increase the initiative of flying units). So I don't think it's right to say that Inferno as no flyer.
Quote:
Dungeon can creep, especially now, don't get me wrong. It's just a bit harder then some of the other towns. Though I also am not the best Dungeon player.
Well I think that just because it's hard to play a faction it doesn't make it an disadvantage of a faction.
Quote:
And I've played games where I was able to pump out 2000 gold a day with peasants.
Well THAT late in the game I wouldn't think that it still would make a huge diffrence... though I'm not saying 2000/day don't make a diffrence. It just that I think that by the time you amas those legions the game is long over .
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 01:04 PM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 13:09, 01 Dec 2007.
|
Corrected some of the mentioned things. The peasant thing is still as a secondary source, and though not much help free gold is nothing to sneeze at. Especially when you get them from places that give them for free.
Edit : Any other helpful suggestions are welcomed.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 01:16 PM |
|
|
|
as for the peasants, there were quite a few discussions about them a few months ago. The general conclusion is that they are worthless - since 1 peasant costs 20 gold, it takes almost 4 weeks to merely pay for the costs of their recruitment, and after that time the an average MP game is nearly decided anyway. Unless you got ellane and 1-2 hundreds of free peasants from the map, you won't even notice they generated some gold.
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 01:18 PM |
|
|
Will put a caveat about "Especially from external generators" (which you can get them free at). Please feel free to give any other suggestions to help get this to something new players can use as a general guide to the good and bad parts of each town.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 01:22 PM |
|
|
Warlock's luck is not really hard to get, just 2 lvl ups more and you'd get expert luck anyway. What changed is that there is swift mind in logistics that I'd rather have in most games.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 01:25 PM |
|
|
Hmm, then rephrasing might be a toughy. Any suggestions? Perhaps take the mention out? <----is keeping an open mind. I realize I am not the best player out there. So anything I can do to expand my knowledge is a good thing.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 01:32 PM |
|
|
Just mention that it's harder to get  Academy's problem is that there are no guarantees and certain methods that always work. Each game is different and you'll have to be careful according to what skills you get early. In my last game I got attack and automatically went for flaming arrows and warmachines that rocks. According to your guild you may go dark/destructive or light along with summoning(Yes I always take it ) but you can't tell always from the start.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 01:44 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Academy's problem is that there are no guarantees and certain methods that always work.
1. Isn't this exactly what makes Academy SO powerfull? They can't do whatever they want!! Waaaay to many opportunities for one faction alone... They are like a combination of all towns oO!
2.Ehm so does any other faction or not? Well ok except for the boring Paladin training thing every faction has no fool proof way of wining... or do they?
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 01:57 PM |
|
|
An example. Sylvan and dungeon are pretty forward about what they can do, you just need the right skills.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 02:05 PM |
|
|
Riiight... ok I kind of missunderstood you there. It's just that I think that all the other faction can adept FAR less than Academy can. Thats what makes them so strong... most factions (like Dungeon and Sylvan) will have to do what they are ment to do so basically everybody will now how to usually counter them. But from Academy you never know what do expect... one naughty faction.
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
|
|
posted December 01, 2007 11:34 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Seventh teir creature dwelling is expensive, and the creature is not as strong as most other 7th teir
Yes, but the Tier 7 Dwelling's cost is to cover the resurrectability (is that a word?) of the Tier 7. No other tier 7 (with exception of Archangel's ability) can be raised repeatedly from the dead. Also, the Necropolis is the only town in which a racial building can boost its tier 7 growth (Dragon Tombstone). Also for Necropolis's bad, their vulnerability to destructive magic should be mentioned. With one Destructive defense (Boneward), they are easy targets.
Quote:
Ultimate is one of the worse in the game
Not if your Klaus
Quote:
Low growth for most creatures
You might add insane costs.
The Bad for Stronghold - You might add that their Tier 6 Dwelling's cost is outrageous.
Quote:
Also with ultimate, their enemies always do half damage further increasing the benifit of their defense and hitpoints
Not if You go against a Ranger with Absolute Luck
Also, the Academy may have extreme advantages, but they are not unbeatable. The force of the Necromancers can beat them (spell onslaught < extreme resilance). The stronghold can give them a run for their gold as well.
|
|
vicheron
Known Hero
|
|
posted December 02, 2007 05:07 AM |
|
|
Rangers are actually really good casters thanks to High Druids. The Channeling Ability can increase the Ranger's spell power to the level of Necromancers and Warlocks.
Fortress has three units that are immune to fire and they have Rune of Immunity which could potentially give fire immunity to even more units so they're very potent with fire magic. Fortress also benefits more from Soldier's Luck than any other faction because they have the most number of units with chance based abilities, plus Dwarven Luck, Rune of Thunderclap, and Rune of Etherealness all benefit from Soldier's Luck.
|
|
|
|
