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Heroes Community > Tavern of the Rising Sun > Thread: Don't you miss the good old days?
Thread: Don't you miss the good old days? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
RMS
RMS


Responsible
Legendary Hero
-ing yummy foods
posted November 17, 2001 06:37 PM

...hmm, I see...so I guess even if you'de lived 20 years later than you are, then even then, if you happenned to see that the world was a much better place, as it usually eventually becomes, you'de rather have traveled back in time to live now?
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Milena
Milena


Responsible
Supreme Hero
in supreme disgrace
posted November 18, 2001 12:58 AM

Quote:
Anyway, it's a fact that the 20th century was the most violent and bloody in history, so I don't think progress does us all that good.
Think twice. Time: Reign of Henry VIII. Location: England. 2% of the population of England was killed off for different reasons... 2%! And these were the death sentences commanded by the king.

Not to mention the Soviet Union.. you do know how many died under Stalin's reign? I wouldn't call these times 'the new days".
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Murphy
Murphy


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
banned
posted November 18, 2001 02:56 AM

lol, good point!

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RMS
RMS


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Legendary Hero
-ing yummy foods
posted November 18, 2001 03:00 AM

...that's deep...
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted November 18, 2001 11:40 AM

Quote:

Not to mention the Soviet Union.. you do know how many died under Stalin's reign? I wouldn't call these times 'the new days".


Huh? I don't get this. "the new days?" I never used those words! And the 20th century means from 1900-1999, if you didn't know. Or are you trying to tell me Stalin lived in the 19th, or maybe 18th century, or maybe Stalin was an ancient greek?

Anyway, the two world wars made sure that the 20th was the most bloody century in history (ask any historian).


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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


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posted November 18, 2001 11:58 AM

That is of course discounting the Holgradian Wars of Middle Europe and Northern Africa which supposedly wiped out 100 million people 5 thousand years ago.

*taps fingers on table and looks around humming...*

*smile*


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Gimmickless
Gimmickless


Promising
Known Hero
Cannon Maker
posted November 18, 2001 12:02 PM

Most bloody?  Looking from a body count, most assuredly.  Percentage-wise, I'm not so sure.  Take the USA for instance.  Civil War was the bloodiest war that we've ever fought.  We lost more lives fighting that than any other, if I remember correctly.  However, a little Indian uprising around 1685 *decimated* the European immigrant populace.  Almost halved it, in fact.  It's too bad that more people didn't know about Metacomet AKA King Philip...
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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


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posted November 18, 2001 12:12 PM

Who cares about percentage wise? LOL and America isn't the only country on the face of the planet you know...

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Gimmickless
Gimmickless


Promising
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Cannon Maker
posted November 18, 2001 12:28 PM

Maybe not, but I'm biased. ;)

Russia has probably never known bloodshed like WW2 and Stalin.  Most of Europe was decimated by the last century, and Napoleon before that...and the English before that...and the Spaniards before that...etcetera ad naseum.  The Middle East has been as calm as monsoon season in China.  Heck, even Australia had to contend with Japan in WW2, as well as supporting the Malaysian government a few years after that, and then supporting Vietnam operations.

No human civilization has been a stranger to fighting on a cross-cultural scale.  However, from an American perspective, I figured it might as well be best that I offer an American historical point of view.  But my bad about the entire world needing to know about King Philip.  That should certainly be within the national boundaries.
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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


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Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted November 18, 2001 12:43 PM

Well fighting really knows no race or borders when it comes to us, Gimmickless. Humans will fight each other for any number of reasons, regardless of location. There is always bloodshed and disagreement between people, whether it be 1 billion or just 2 of us.

We are diseased monkeys, afflicted with a virus that allows us to justify killing in the most nonsensical of ways. To be honest, I don't even see monkeys acting like we do. We're so very foreign to this world in everything we say and do. Were it not for a vague resemblance and a (supposed) genetic connection, I'd doubt that we are even natives of earth.

And if we are, then may god help us, because our bloodshed will only get worse the more of us there are.


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Gimmickless
Gimmickless


Promising
Known Hero
Cannon Maker
posted November 18, 2001 12:59 PM

Your pessimistic view of humanity disturbs me.  I would like to think that people can be reasonable with each other, even if they disagree.  Call me an idealist, because history has proven me wrong time and time again, but I still think it possible to be able to communicate with someone and not end up coming to blows over something unless one party acts extremely offensive (e.g., boffing your spouse on the side, hitting you first).  

In fact, we are the only species who have developed methods of doing just that.  Whenever there is a conflict between other animals, they fight.  Period. For rank in the pack, for food, for mates, animals fight. Some of our societies at least have court systems or other means of hashing things out besides playing a violent version of King of the Hill. Living creatures are only peaceful until they are not, human or otherwise.
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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


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posted November 18, 2001 01:12 PM

Of course people can be reasonable with each other you silly. The basic heart of the matter is that animals can be reasonable with each other too and the soul purpose of pack rankings is to establish a semblance of order amongst them so that the leader may best find ways to protect/lead the rest of them.

With people, we all see each other as equal and take affront when it is suggested that someone is superior/stronger than the others. This leads to hatred and an inner acidic eating which eventually leads to unreasonable acts.

Our laws are based on a punishment system which is the only reason why it works. You break the law, you pay the price. Simple. That's the only reason in it. If there really was a moralistic ideal behind the law, then I say it wouldn't work without the threat of punishment. People have a tendency to justify wrongdoing in their own minds. They have a tendency to justify killing too. Unnecessarily. I do not see this happening with other species.

Sorry I disturb you Gimmick. It's just that from where I've been, I find it hard to have faith in people. They always betray. It's in them....

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Gimmickless
Gimmickless


Promising
Known Hero
Cannon Maker
posted November 18, 2001 01:34 PM

No need to apologize for disturbing me.  I'm a stubborn b@stard and can pop right back up from just about anything.  I'm Gimmickless, not Spineless. *groan*

But to continue the conservation, I'd say that animals don't "convince" themselves of rightness is that we've not yet communicated with our simian brethren about why Koko hates Pola-Pola.  

Again I'll bring up the challenging the leader of the pack example.  It may be because the leader is not as strong as it used to be.  Or the prestige of being alpha male and the mating right involved may motivate the wolf to try his mettle.  Either way, is this not another form of convincing oneself of rightness in their cause?  It may not be as sever as being responsible for the death of millions, but thought is thought, no matter what the species.

Your move.
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Sha_Men
Sha_Men


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Supreme Hero
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posted November 18, 2001 01:50 PM

Something...

When wolfs are in duel...

the weaker one that is losing can show the stronger one his neck and the stronger one will give him mercy...Unless the stronger one has some certain braindamage that makes it act differently...
But humans...if weaker one begs for mercy that doesn't mean thing for stronger one. It just is simple call does stronger time put bullet into weaker ones head or not. So there goes the whole idea of "Humanism"...

It's kind of funny...I had this thought in my head when I watched "Terminator"-themovie from TV last night...I have watched it many times...Even when it's "just action movie" there is something very philosophical in both Terminator movies...Big Arnold makes his role of lifetime and one of his lines in "Terminator 2:the Judgement day" is that "human just end up killing each other"...that's why they must be terminated.

I must agree with Shae...
We are sometimes so strong so strong...but that just makes us so weak so weak...

It's so easy to give or take life but to hold it...that's little harder.
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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


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posted November 19, 2001 09:38 AM

I still think humans are far removed from the hierarchy of a pack of dogs. That that leads us to kill each other for the most insane of reasons. Not for prestige or for mating rights, but for silly silly things. He cut me off in traffic!!!!!!!

I'll try and tie this back into the thread again. Back in the 'old days' as they say, killing was a much more acceptable part of a community. It's much less acceptable now, but more insidious. People kill each other for money. Ten bucks even. I don't see dogs slaughtering each other for a leg bone. I don't see dogs killing each other just because one dog cut in front without asking.

Like Arnie said, 'it's in your nature to destroy yourselves.'

Of course I like to romance about world peace someday, but I think we're all going to have to learn a very very harsh lesson before we're granted any sort of peaceful utopia in our little paradise that we call Earth.

*smile*

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Milena
Milena


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Supreme Hero
in supreme disgrace
posted November 19, 2001 09:55 AM

Quote:
Like Arnie said, 'it's in your nature to destroy yourselves.'
Fifth rule of therotheory:

"It is in the nature of any closed system to destroy itself"

Gee and I thought Physics was a bad sunject. ;-)
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Gimmickless
Gimmickless


Promising
Known Hero
Cannon Maker
posted November 19, 2001 10:04 AM

It almost looks like you try to find fifth rules of things, Milena.  Fifth rule of the wizard, now this?  Do you study numerology or something? *grin*
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
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of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted November 19, 2001 10:10 AM

Yeah, all right, I think we've reached the conclusion that fighting and killing is really, really bad, but that nothing will stop us from doing it, so can we *please* get back on-topic? The Good Ol'days!

Oh, and I'm a believer in Kants duty ethics (correct translation?), well believer is a strong word, because I don't think people can manage to live by it, but my point is I think it would work if people could. (mangage it, that is)
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Gimmickless
Gimmickless


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Known Hero
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posted November 19, 2001 10:18 AM

If everyone obeys any system, it'll work.  Communism, capitalism, cannibalism, anarchy: it's all the same in the end...one-ness of thought. And that sucks.

As for the good old days, I don't believe in such a thing.  Until there is a one-ness of thought, I can't find any time where something wasn't right about the world. Until people find the one-ness to stop taking themselves so godd@mn seriously, we won't have any hope of having good days.  From my life alone, the good old days come few and far between.  I can't honestly think things were "better" before I was alive.
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
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of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted November 19, 2001 10:34 AM

Hey, every man is in title to his opinion, and what I meant about Kant was that I think it would lead to a happy and good world, not just that there wouldn't be war. The others here, I'm not so sure about.
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