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| Thread: Inferno in HoMM 5 is UNDERPOWERED |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted December 23, 2007 05:55 PM |
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Can somebody please explain why playing with deleb is so boring??? I may be biased, but imho creeping with stalkers are far more boring...
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted December 23, 2007 06:01 PM |
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Yeah you're right creeping with Stalkers is even more boring but thats kind of diffrent as they are a unit and not a hero. In the beginning you can choose wheter you want it nice and easy (Deleb) or have a hard/more competetive time (practically everyone else)in week 1. Normally I would say that you play Dungeon because you like the faction not because of their easy creeping due to Stalkers.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted December 23, 2007 11:00 PM |
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I've just finished a game on Battle for Honor with deleb. I took the ballista and tent perk at lvl2 and 3, and it was enough to creep the following on first week:
 3 precious mines (didn't take the crystal mine)
capture the 2nd town on day 4
take out 18 wraiths on day 6 with only a double ballista and lost only 4-5 demons (though fire trap helped me a bit)
Ok, I know that other factions can do this as well, but let no one say that inferno suck at this  . I couldn't take flaming arrows due to a bad lvl-up, so breaking was possible only on week 4 day 3. If I would have had the precious arrows, I think I could have defeated the arch devils on week 3.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 23, 2007 11:05 PM |
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Good job there Week 4 was the standard but I see that week 3 is also feasible even for might factions.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted December 23, 2007 11:12 PM |
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Well thanks . And that week 3 break would be a late week 3, I think. Day 5 at best. I forgot the replays  , but I think I made a save, I'll check it.
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Veteranewbie
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 24, 2007 02:35 PM |
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Quote:
I've just finished a game on Battle for Honor with deleb. I took the ballista and tent perk at lvl2 and 3, and it was enough to creep the following on first week:
3 precious mines (didn't take the crystal mine)
capture the 2nd town on day 4
take out 18 wraiths on day 6 with only a double ballista and lost only 4-5 demons (though fire trap helped me a bit)
Ok, I know that other factions can do this as well, but let no one say that inferno suck at this . I couldn't take flaming arrows due to a bad lvl-up, so breaking was possible only on week 4 day 3. If I would have had the precious arrows, I think I could have defeated the arch devils on week 3.
Try that without Deleb, you're already lucky if you're able to do that at week3 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 24, 2007 02:40 PM |
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You are wrong, week 3 is easily possible if you get a feeling for the faction. If orcs can take the devils week 3 with ballista so can the demons. I'm pretty sure I can do it when I get the time.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted December 24, 2007 02:48 PM |
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I really don't understand why ppl treat deleb as something that is unfair/boring/imba to play with. To win, you must start with the best hero, which is actually deleb in inferno. I won't pick jezebeth for instance, just because she is WEAK. Deleb is STRONG. Or would you choose some crap hero just because 99% of the ppl plays with the best hero for that faction? I don't think so. Unfortunately, deleb is the ONLY hero who puts inferno's creeping to competitive
Edit: @Elvin: If you get flaming arrows it's 100% that you can do it on week 3. Without it I'm not sure, you have to get lucky with spells/artifacts.
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Veteranewbie
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 24, 2007 03:13 PM |
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Quote:
I really don't understand why ppl treat deleb as something that is unfair/boring/imba to play with. To win, you must start with the best hero, which is actually deleb in inferno. I won't pick jezebeth for instance, just because she is WEAK. Deleb is STRONG. Or would you choose some crap hero just because 99% of the ppl plays with the best hero for that faction? I don't think so. Unfortunately, deleb is the ONLY hero who puts inferno's creeping to competitive
Edit: @Elvin: If you get flaming arrows it's 100% that you can do it on week 3. Without it I'm not sure, you have to get lucky with spells/artifacts.
Please don't get me wrong, but I suppose unless you choose her actively, Deleb is not always available. What about two inferno races then?
I am not saying to pick a crap hero. For Inferno, most of its heroes are actually quite good (perhaps with the exception of Alastor). But how confidence can you creep if you know that you start without Deleb? If starting with a different hero may delay your creeping schedule by an entire week, you know that something is not quite right here.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted December 24, 2007 03:25 PM |
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Well the Deleb issue is not that of Deleb itself but the one all Warmachineist have... Warmachines boosts the creeping of any faction imensly (because it becomes so much easier to kill high level creeps without loses D'UH). So I guess it's just the "spice" that is missing you know? Some people would say that a faction should be good at creeping no matter what hero you choose (which I think is really how it should be) Hero's should be the extra toping on you magnificant faction cake because they should be the extra that adepts to your play style. I hope you could follow me there .... It's not the hero who should determine wheter a faction is good at creeping or not it should be the faction. And by chosing ANY warmachnieist you make it easier for yourself. That's why I think people (including me) think that it's not moral/nice/fair/competetive/whatever to take a Warmachineist from the beginning...
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted December 24, 2007 05:20 PM |
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War machines don't guarantee a win. Even Deleb can be bested easily by, say, Jhora with Remote Control and some luck to pick Ballista. And what about the Fortress, with their three units immune to fire. Wait, I'm helping prove inferno is weak. Inferno's problem is that it has a lot of heroes that deal with Gating. If the hero doesn't focus on Gating, then it weakens their overall power. But some heroes do fine without Gating focus, like Alastor and Jezebeth. However, Inferno's creatures can pale in comparison to others.
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted December 25, 2007 05:31 PM |
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This post would be better suited for the playing inferno topic, but I post it here, because this thread might draw more attention (at least I hope so.
I was wondering whether it's possible to break on battle for honor with inferno on week 3, yesterday I tried it and succeeded .
Here's the full story:
I started with deleb, as usual, and I planned for getting triple ballista via flaming arrows (to ensure week 3 breaking) from the first day. I was unfortunate with chests, day 1 I managed only 1000 exp from two chests , and the starting artifact was +1 speed boots, which is fine (maybe the best you can get), but it doesn't help too much on week 1.
Since the ore pit and lvl1 spell shrine was guarded by saboteurs, I took first aid rather than ballista (you MUST keep your fams and demons alive), and got some tough creeps like horde of war dancers on my way to 2nd castle but I managed to defeat them with a few demons as an only loss. However, horde of blackbear riders were out of question, you just can't kill them without a double ballista. I captured 2nd town with no losses (Deleb was at lvl 6 or 7 that time) and finally, ballista perk showed up.
On day 6 I decide to attack pack of Anger Treants with about 50 imps and 30 demons. Here is the replay. This battle was risky, and I lost all my demons, besides I was a bit lucky with the terrain. You might say losing 30 demons is quite a big loss, but you'll see that they don't count much in tougher fights (and you don't use them to attack while breaking), and I captured an external demon dwelling with a secondary, so I knew I could easily refill my army with these fodder creatures.
What I built on week 1 were the following (in order):
imp dwelling upg, blacksmith, town hall, hound dwelling, city hall, succubus dwelling, demon dwelling. In 2nd town I only built town hall.
Also, it was important to take gold from every chest I found after day 2.
On week 2 I headed to the east side of the map, killed every creep with my main, deleb, and collected everything with 2 secondary heroes, and I cleared that side of the map by the end of week 2, I managed skills carefully, and got flaming arrows on lvl 16. I encountered various creeps like arcane archers, druid elders, firehounds, but none of them were problems. Here is a replay of defeating 26 elder druids with 3 demons and a superb ballista. I would have done it with 7 stacks of demons, but my secondary couldn't reach my main, so I saved the game and gave it a try, and got lucky since it was only 1 stack of druids. I could have done it safely next turn.
On week 2 I built capitol, castle, upg kennels and something which I forgot in main town, and kennels in 2nd town. You don't need to build charger/pit lord dwelling, as you don't need them for creeping, and they're costly. I didn't care about the west side of the map, my secondary collected chests and resources from that side week 1, and while there were some medium-level arties guarded by weak lvl7s, I didn't feel they were necessities, and I wanted to brek on week 3, so I didn't have time to clear that area.
On week 3 I gathered all of my forces (about 143 familiars, 84 firehounds, 31 seducers and 146 horned grunts) with lvl 17 deleb (all racial perks, tent, triple ballista, battle frenzy, excr. strike, flaming arrows) and went to kill the arch devils. I had unimpressive artifacts with treeborn quiver, helm of chaos, windstrider boots and four leaf clover at top. I reached the arch devils on week 3 day 5, there were 40 devils splitted into 3 stacks. I won the battle,and lost only 3 demons and my ammo cart. Here is the replay. It's the classic "stay in the corner and gate" battle, but don't forget to protect the ballista. You can see that this battle is quite easy, and you don't need so much practice to do this.
With this post, I don't want to prove that inferno is the best race (or anything similar), I just wanted to show that with enough practise, and good knowledge of skills it can compete with other factions, and is NOT underpowered.
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Undead_Warrior
Known Hero
I hear voices in my head.
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posted December 25, 2007 08:10 PM |
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In campains I think too that inferno is a little underpowered but in a skirmish game they are a lethal force. Personaly I belive that if you know how to use gating Inferno is an awsome power.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 26, 2007 01:15 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 01:20, 26 Dec 2007.
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OMG!
I gave it a try and was able to take down 43 archdevils on week 3 without getting the artifact merchants - damn I'm good  That was very risky, in my first game I lost about 30 familiars and after I won and replayed it I accidentally lost 50 firehounds, things get hectic with all those gates to the point you feel lost..
Anyway in my first levels I got ballista and tent. A scout took ore mine and Deleb went for wood, then gems, hellhound dwelling(lost 2 familiars vs 60 centaurs), sulfur, crystal mine and close to town to defeat a tier 3 unit and learn dark from the hut(already had warmachines and logistics) where a secondary gave her firehounds. Then mercury mine, second town where I bought demons(had 3 remaining  ), military post and finally gold mine on day 7. Did not attack the ancient treants, was not worth the risk for a shield of crystal ice.
Then took the nearby 87 spectres( ), passed from the portal to clear the west side except for the artifact merchants guarded by shadow witches and the mercenary camp and returned to town where I had sent my available units with caravan. The mage vault was crap(got divine vengeance..) and so were my artifacts. Returned to the east to defeat lots of master hunters and the treants and back to town just before the third week had come. Then I got the tree to the south, defeated a pack of archdevils to get necklace of victory and attacked the archdevil guards on day 4.
About building strategy week 1:
I built town hall, hell chargers and succubi, upgraded familiars and hellhounds. No city hall as I could get goldmine and no demons because there was not enough wood and I already had recruited some from the second town. During the next week I built capitol, devils, upgraded succubi and mage guild 3. On starting day of week 3 a mage guild 4 and left for the devils. To do that I had to do some serious exchanging in the marketplace.
Here is my Deleb after the fight, did not have excruciating strike
My totally awesome artifacts
Replays:
Lots of taskmasters day 3
Horde of spectres week 2 day 1
That was pretty surprising, 87 spectres are hell to defeat that early.
Week 3 break, 43 archdevils - no flaming arrows
I have been unlucky in this game. I got logistics early and then dark from the hut - this meant no attack until level 14  Had to take luck instead, you can only wait so much. When I took some more attack levels I was not offered its perks because I already had 3 skills. While I was lucky enough to get frenzy in the guild I had 4 freaking knowledge so just 2 casts.
Enough ranting, the basic idea for this fight is 3 stacks of 3 demons(to ensure they'll all gate), a succubus seducer stack, firehounds, familiars and demons. You gate all over to prevent being hit, cast some frenzys, seduce and generally try to keep them back The rule of the thumb is make sure to kill stacks, focus your fire. After your succubi gate you can seduce with the gates too, just make sure you have work out the other stacks, in this game 17 succubi could seduce 4 devils.
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I think that clearly proves that inferno Deleb is far from underpowered Inferno can be crazy but warmachines are the only way, thank goodness it's a common skill.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted December 26, 2007 02:51 AM |
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Even if it's really hard to creep with Inferno without warmachines skill, we can make it. But, in my opinion, the Inferno problem is the total dependence to their racial skill. Result: the Inferno neutral armies are really weak (because they can't 'gate') and the 'final fights' against human players are always a cruel dilemne: can we 'gate' and suffer the first strike (with our poor Defense, Dark magic and AoE spells vulnerability...) or must we no 'gate' to go quickly in melee...
If you're interested, here a MOD to a more balanced Inferno.
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TWITCH|YouTube | NewArenas2023 MOD
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Veteranewbie
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 26, 2007 07:21 AM |
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That just proves that Deleb is still really good, but not necessarily that Inferno is not underpowered (or suck in 1st week). Mere ballista without wa machine skill (and not only war machine, but you need ballista and first aid as well) is not too useful. And to use other Inferno heroes, if you are lucky, you will be offered that skill by level7 or so (hope this estimation is correct).
BTW which folder should I put the replay in order to watch them?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 26, 2007 09:50 AM |
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Here: C:\Documents and Settings\Your name\My Documents\My Games\Heroes of Might and Magic V - Tribes of the East\Profiles\username\Replays
And you are wrong. Inferno will ALWAYS have warmachines even if they get delayed a few levels. That battle will still be feasible on week 3 unless one is really unlucky.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Veteranewbie
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 26, 2007 11:07 AM |
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Quote:
Here: C:\Documents and Settings\Your name\My Documents\My Games\Heroes of Might and Magic V - Tribes of the East\Profiles\username\Replays
And you are wrong. Inferno will ALWAYS have warmachines even if they get delayed a few levels. That battle will still be feasible on week 3 unless one is really unlucky.
Ah I see, I don't have a Replay folder.
And of course they do. War machine pops up pretty often for Demon Lords, but which battle are you referring to?
btw somehow I couldn't download the 43 devils replay
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 26, 2007 11:21 AM |
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Then create a folder and name it 'Replays'. Was talking about the devil battle of course. Why you cannot dl the replay I have no idea, I clicked at the link and it works for me.
I may try to repeat that with another hero if I see I have the time.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted December 26, 2007 11:22 AM |
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Here are some replays with inferno creeping without warmachines:
I used Grok as I think Deleb is just too easy. I aimed for warmachines but did not get everything I wanted. Map was let's fight
Emeralds with Succubi and Dark
Theeasy access to Dark magic makes inferno viable against big creatures.
Some Other replays: tell me what you think
Week1-2battles
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