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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Unknown enemy: How to build your hero
Thread: Unknown enemy: How to build your hero This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Myrdreon
Myrdreon

Tavern Dweller
posted December 23, 2007 04:23 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 22:59, 23 Dec 2007.

Unknown enemy: How to build your hero

I've been puzzling arround this subject for a while. You dont know who you are playing against, you dont know anything about the opponents hero/artifacts/faction. You dont know the play style and what to expect. Probably murphy's law helps a hand and you also dont know anything about the current map. How can you still start building a hero without risking to become an easy kill?

Well, as it turns out it can all be found within three skills; attack, defence and destruction.

Defence. Your "might" counter which also helps with magic.

Defence gives +30% melee reduction, attack gives +15% melee increase. This means that against a might based hero (which has attack) having the defense feat will still bring his damage lower then if both you and he didnt have those two feats. So for a start defense is always a good bet. The same goes for the rest of both the tiers; vitality cancels out battle frenzy and evasion deals with archery. In fact you get out on top!
Picture this; enemy archers do 100 damage. With archery it becomes 120 damage (+20%). Now the evasion lowers this with 20%... but 20% of 120 is not 20, its 24. So the damage you get is 96. So having the defence feats on your side not only cancels his out, but still provides a bit more. The same ofcourse also applies to defense and attack itself. 100 with 15% does 115, your 30% makes it 80,5.
Now, against a magic one there is also a nice feat here, protection, which lowers the magical damage by 15% which will help to deal with a magic hero.

Destruction. Your "magic" counter which also helps against might. Ah well lets throw in some damage as well.

To further protect from magic, the destruction tree is a viable bet. With most factions you can get sap (another 20% magic damage reduction) as the second skill (usually after master of storms). In fact only the rune mage (third skill) and the barbarian (no sap) are the only exceptions. However their runes/rage can make up for this to give respectively immunity or a powerfull shield. Along with the ice mastery, you got two viable casts to keep your opponent in line wether he is might or magic. Air for single target control/high damage and ice for the control of a group. There is another reason i say ice, which comes in the next part.
It also gives you some more damage output to your hero regardless if your hero/faction is might or magic, tough magic hero's will benefit more here.

Attack. If you cant kill your opponent it means you still die in the end.

It goes without saying for magic hero's that destruction magic improves their damage output. However -this goes for both hero types- attack will always improve the damage of your army. Thanks to you being smart enough to follow my advice on ice magic, you suddenly get a new option in your attack tree; cold steel. This enhances your damage, being melee or ranged, with an additional 10% damage. Archery is a nice addition to this, since with the cold steel feat your damage suddenly gets +30% on ranged and +25% on melee.
However, for those that can reach it, archery can be exchanged for retribution. Keep in mind tough that you need to invest in either morale artifacts and/or leadership for it to be usefull (and in some cases you need leadership and certain feats to get it available leaving you without much choice there.

Finally, since these are all percentage based (which means the more damage you do, the more benefit you get) battle frenzy is a usefull addition, especially with lower tier units. When your army consists of a lot large creatures, tactics can also be a nice perk.

The build setup

So far this leaves us with the following setup;
Defence - Vitality, Protection, Evasion
Attack - Cold steel, Archery, -Battle frenzy or Tactics-
Destruction - Master of Ice, Master of Storms, Sap

Lets review; -30% damage from melee, -35% damage from magic, -20% damage from ranged, +30% damage on ranged, +25% damage on melee. When using ice/lightning additional damage decrease since the target(s) cant act making for less attacks.
Not to bad without any kind of artifact boosting if i say so.


More importantly, this leaves you with 2 skills left of your choosing to improve your faction/hero to "might", "magic", the map,or just to suit your own play style better.

For any hero logistics, enlightment and war machines are usefull. For more might oriented perks morale and luck can help. As for magic sorcery and another magic school. Dont choose 2 additional magics, as you already have fire/ice/lightning which makes it unlikely for your opponent to resist everything already.

Notice

As far as this setup goes, it doesnt work on Barbarians since they cant cast and have no acces to the complete destruction part, cold steel etc.
Runemages are the only ones with sap as a third skill, probably because their survival is sickening as it is. As such you have to choose between cold steel and sap. Mind you, the runes will make up for whichever path you choose.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 23, 2007 05:52 PM
Edited by Elvin at 17:54, 23 Dec 2007.

Strongly disagree. With that build you can delay the inevitable not aim to win and that's because most factions do NOT need defense, attack or destructive. Half the factions are far from efficient destructive casters - that is almost useless. And how can you creep with those? Defense will not help and destructive only for some so only attack remains.

Btw what's the deal with not knowing who you face? The tavern or a thieves guild can inform you about that and you'll never know what artifacts the opponent will have anyway. My advice is to play in each faction's strengths, clear the important locations and them aim to kill That can't go wrong no matter who you face, as long as you have prepared better than your opponent you are fine.

Sometimes the simpler plans are the most effective
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Lord_of_Chaos
Lord_of_Chaos


Known Hero
Chaotic Entity
posted December 23, 2007 06:28 PM

Hmm, yes, I would avoid going with these 3 all the time. I never take defence, mainly because I don't need it; most factions don't anyways. Attack actually is quite useful, especially for battle frenzy and flaming arrows too, if I have to room for it. I would only take destructive with factions that truely specialize in it and in this case, Dungeon is the only one (an empowered, lucky, slippers implosion really hurts).

As for other skills. I tend to take logistics whenever I get the chance. It really helps in making greater use of a turn. War machines is also very useful just like you said. A ballista with flaming arrows and the triple ballista perk is very powerful, especially with might factions like the Barbarians. When I get the chance, I also usually take leadership. Good morale means more attacks, plus you can get the aura of swiftness perk, one of my favourites.

But I guess there is no one way to buid your hero. Each person has their own strategies for building them.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 23, 2007 06:41 PM

What I meant earlier is exactly that, according to the artifacts/spells you get you may want to try an unconventional build that can be just as effective under the current circumstances.
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Myrdreon
Myrdreon

Tavern Dweller
posted December 23, 2007 06:50 PM

Well, perhaps i have missed something, but last time i checked defense completely nullified any attack bonus your opponent can have. How can it then not be effective? less damage means fewer deaths, and fewer deaths leads to more damage from yourself.


As for playing to a factions strengths, i dont quite understand. Last time i checked when a creature hits 5000-ish (i know, bit on the low side towards a final battle) an additional 25% damage increase means 1250 extra damage. No spell can get close to those numbers except when you focus solely on spellpower and your luck brings you slippers/implosion. Unless ofcourse you have empowered spells, but then destruction magic is all you use.
If it turns out however your factions strength is dark magic, just grab the dark magic perk as well.

However, the main idea behind this setup is bringing the most from not just the faction or the hero, but acknowledging that they are both a part of your army. Two strong army's, but 1 weak and 1 strong hero makes the stronger hero win. However, 2 strong hero's and 1 weak and 1 strong army makes the stronger army win. Going pure magic gimps your army, while going pure might gimps your hero.
Thats the basics behind every build.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 23, 2007 07:02 PM

Defense is almost useless for sylvan because they rely in a charge and whatever damage they can do in the first rounds. Yes ideally ANY bonus is good but there are better ones out there.

You are mistaken to think that the other spell types cannot be as effective as destructive or even more. Yes light and summoning as well, they just do not focus on killing the opponent.

Quote:
However, 2 strong hero's and 1 weak and 1 strong army makes the stronger army win. Going pure magic gimps your army, while going pure might gimps your hero.
Thats the basics behind every build.

Not at all. Have you heard of MMR? Magic over might yeah baby
Trust me, pure magic can win pure might unless the enemy has outrageous army strength. If the opponent has a might faction with might skills and you try to tackle that with a magic faction and might skills you will lose, it's as easy as that.
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myrdreon
myrdreon

Tavern Dweller
posted December 23, 2007 07:10 PM

its a pitty you are so narrow minded. if that was true it would mean that stronghold loses against any faction without any chance, since they cant use magic and everybody else can...

It is actually the other way arround; the fact that stronghold can survive vs magic would sooner show that it is might over magic not vice versa.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 23, 2007 07:42 PM

It's a pity that you do not have my experience One last thing to say, dungeon with destructive emphasis and attack will lose against stronghold while it can win if it has summoning and dark instead.
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Oscarius
Oscarius


Famous Hero
*sleepy*
posted December 23, 2007 07:48 PM

Quote:
Picture this; enemy archers do 100 damage. With archery it becomes 120 damage (+20%). Now the evasion lowers this with 20%... but 20% of 120 is not 20, its 24. So the damage you get is 96. So having the defence feats on your side not only cancels his out, but still provides a bit more.


If 1 hero got evasion and the other archery dosnt it simply teke eachother out (I was thinking, maybe the same as natures lck and ultimate prot.(??)
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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted December 23, 2007 07:53 PM

I agree with myrdreon about the skills.
Let me think... i take defense with every race except... well all... damn i dont ever take defense.
Destruction...its very useful especially when you dont have destruction spells in your guild.
Attack... well, this one i use quite often.

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Oscarius
Oscarius


Famous Hero
*sleepy*
posted December 23, 2007 07:56 PM

The only town i take dest. is with dungeon(of ofius reoesons)
then i take light and my personal favorite dark(1 word: frenzy)

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted December 23, 2007 09:19 PM
Edited by Moonlith at 21:23, 23 Dec 2007.

Quote:
its a pitty you are so narrow minded. if that was true it would mean that stronghold loses against any faction without any chance, since they cant use magic and everybody else can...

It is actually the other way arround; the fact that stronghold can survive vs magic would sooner show that it is might over magic not vice versa.


Stronghold is a bad example since they have shatter magic skills. Without it they are completely vulnerable to dark magic. Frenzied, slow cyclops causes INSANE havoc amongst your own troops - moreso than destructive magic, especially if those cyclops are boosted by your own might skills. Dark Magic is better than Might since it can turn your might against yourself. If you don't have shatter skills, that is.

I don't agree Destructive Magic is a skill you should always try to get. Heroes with weak spellpower to crap damage with it and then it's a wasted skill. I'd like to see you taking down 60 paladins with a Fireball spell doing 100 damage.

Attack and Defense may be good skills as they are, but a magic hero is FAR better off using magic skills to fill those slots. Perhaps one for Defense to keep his troops around 30% longer so he can keep casting more spells, but Attack takes up a slot that could be filled by a second magic school skill. (The other two being sorcery and enlightment).

Attack is best when your troops already deal a lot of damage. More damage = more damage boosted through the Attack skill. A mage's troops generally don't do high damage though since he generally doesnt have high Attack ratings.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 23, 2007 10:00 PM

Yet attack can be good for a wizard. Tactics/archery/flaming arrows As for the shatter skills they are not always applicable because of the element of surprise but even with shatter dark frenzy can be good enough.
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vicheron
vicheron


Known Hero
posted December 24, 2007 03:17 AM

Heroes that have high attack and low defense attributes like Demon Lords and Warlocks benefit the most from the offense and armorer skills. (I hate how they changed the name of offense and armorer to attack and defense, it's so easy to confuse the skills with the attributes so I'm just going to call them offense and armorer to reduce confusion.) For heroes with high defense and low attack like Runemages and Rangers, they benefit more from skills like enlightenment than offense and armorer. Although, there are times when the perks from attack, like frenzy, outweighs the relative disadvantages of the skill.

Destruction is obviously only useful for heroes with high spell power, with the exception of Rangers since they have imbue and High Druids.

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted December 24, 2007 06:41 AM
Edited by Mytical at 06:44, 24 Dec 2007.

For the most part magic towns have an advantage over might towns.  Most might towns can loose if rushed early, and even in late game they can have problems.  Stronghold is a bit different admittedly.  Though I am with you on the Defense Skill.  Seem to be one of the few who actually like it though.  Especially with fortress for preparation.  Dragons defending with fire shield AND preparation?  Yummy.  With rune of ressurection they become dowright scary.

Destructive is good for some towns, but I really can't see Haven, Sylvan, or several others with it.  Low mana and sp just doesn't cut it, and end game destruction looses a lot of ooomph.  Even empowered.

Pure might build is for possibly stronghold only, and even then I tend to get shatter dark.  Though the other spell schools can be nasty, the only one that Stronghold has a problem overcoming is Dark.
Even haven and sylvan do better with at least 1 spell school.

Dungeon and Academy can get away with a full magic build possibly.

The attack skill is great for just about any town also.  Free damage is always good no matter how you cut it.  
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Jukeboxhero
Jukeboxhero


Adventuring Hero
posted December 25, 2007 04:44 PM

I'm just curious...which towns qualify or are considered Might towns and which ones are considered Magic towns?

I'm assuming Academy is at the extreme Magic side and Stronghold would definetly be on the extreme Might side.

So if it goes like this;

1. Stronghold
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8. Academy

What towns lie inbetween? From what I've seen, Dungeon and maybe Necro are somewhat Might-oriented....but maybe not.

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mamgaeater
mamgaeater


Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
posted December 25, 2007 05:51 PM

stronghold
haven
Fortress
SLyvan
INferno
necropolis
acadamy
dungeon
i think this is the faction from might to magic
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vicheron
vicheron


Known Hero
posted December 26, 2007 12:48 AM
Edited by vicheron at 00:51, 26 Dec 2007.

In terms of primary stat growth:
1. Barbarian - 50% attack, 35% defense, 5% spell power, 10% knowledge
2. Knight - 30% attack, 45% defense, 10% spell power, 15% knowledge
3. Ranger - 15% attack, 45% defense, 10% spell power, 30% knowledge
4. Demon Lord - 45% attack, 10% defense, 15% spell power, 30% knowledge
5. Runemage - 20% attack, 30% defense, 30% spell power, 20% knowledge
6. (tie) Necromancer - 10% attack, 30% defense, 45% spell power, 15% knowledge
6. (tie) Warlock - 30% attack, 10% defense, 45% spell power, 15% knowledge
7. Wizard - 10% attack, 15% defense, 30% spell power, 45% knowledge

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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted December 27, 2007 03:40 AM

Quote:
Well, perhaps i have missed something, but last time i checked defense completely nullified any attack bonus your opponent can have. How can it then not be effective? less damage means fewer deaths, and fewer deaths leads to more damage from yourself.



It's not as effective because OHKOs are common in this game. The dwarves can somewhat make use of Defense due to their insanely high sturdiness but for the rest of the factions, have 3 guys left versus losing your whole stack won't change the outcome.

I've personally never been much of a fan of skills that require you to get hit to kick in and doubly so in this game. Picture it this way: There's a gun and a piece of armor on the table. If you were dueling someone and each of you got to choose only one, which would you take?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 27, 2007 09:41 AM

It's not exactly the same But I believe that it's better to focus on killing the opponent faster than preserving yourself.
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