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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes influences to towns
Thread: Heroes influences to towns
Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted December 30, 2007 10:07 AM
Edited by Mytical at 10:44, 30 Dec 2007.

Heroes influences to towns

(didn't know what else to call the thread).

Heroes can make a town really powerful, of that there can be no doubt.  Some heroes are stronger then others do to starting special and skills.  Now some say that such heroes are imbalanced, but here is my take on the situation.

First, the series is Heroes of Might and Magic.  It's the heroes that makes the towns, not vice versa.  Sure there should be some synergy between their 'preferred' town and them, but the heroes should powerfully influence the game.

Also, if you read any fantasy book some of the heroes are more important then the others.  Can't see Samwise being as powerful as Gandalf or as important either (lotr).  Important?  Yes. So it makes sense that some heroes are more potent then others.

A hero, for good or for bad can help or hurt an army.  Getting the wrong hero can make things a lot tougher at the beginning, so that at the end things are much tougher because of it.  So, why not go with the optimum hero?

Simple, boredom.  Sure, a lot of people might choose the strongest hero every time.  Personally I would get bored with that easily.  I guess people don't like loosing, but what is so fun about knowing the outcome every time?

Anybody can do well with certain heroes like Deleb.  The real challenge is to let the computer pick a random hero for you, or even a random town.  Only when you can beat your opponits the majority of the time under these circumstances can you really call yourself a good player.

Heroes can make or break a game, just as luck can.  Overcoming the handicaps to me is the thrill.  So I honestly think the fact that a hero can be really powerful is a non-issue.  The truely great players shouldn't rely on a certain hero/certain faction.  They should be able to win regardless.   Just my 2 cents worth.

A hero does influence the town, and that is as it should be.  His skills and perks can make a town really strong, or make it suffer.  It can influence them directly (ie creature specialist) or indirectly (ie the double taxpayer ability).  No specials are totally useless, even if some are not as potent as others.  What do you think of heroe's influences on a town?


Edit : Lets take an example.  I play deleb with inferno and you play inferno with another hero.  We both have equal luck with skills and creeping (somehow) and we face each other in the end game.  If I beat you with Deleb, is it better or because I had Deleb?  Now if you manage to win, there is no doubt.  It would be because you are a better player..period.

If I can only win by taking Academy and Jhora, do I win because I am good, or because of the town/hero I take?  Yeah a hero influences a town, and that is ok.  Heroes should influence towns.  I think relying on a specific town or hero to win is a weak way to do things.
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Veteranewbie
Veteranewbie


Adventuring Hero
posted December 30, 2007 11:01 AM
Edited by Elvin at 12:52, 30 Dec 2007.

Personally I think the ideal circumstance is that no player should feel disadvantaged if not using a specific hero or being given a random hero (by going 'random hero' when starting the game, of course)
As for the town comment, I think some towns and their heroes complement each other better than others, but the basic for each town should be that no matter what hero you use they should perform equally well. Given such basic is fulfilled, if one town can perform much better than the others, I think it is clear then that the town as a whole is overpowered.
Therefore when asking for Inferno early creeping tips I resent the use of Deleb (and to some level, Grok) and like to place the situations in where both of them are not used. From that point on it is quite obvious that Inferno early creeping is difficult

Edit: Please do not quote large posts, it makes it harder for other members to navigate the page.

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted December 30, 2007 11:11 AM

*nods*.  However, if facing Deleb there are other heroes/towns you can use to counter her if you wish.  Balista are a lot easier to destroy then say a catapault.  Sure you'd have to do it quick, but even goblin saboteurs can keep it from working.  I'm not saying the game should not be more balanced, just that it does make sense in the fantasy setting that Homm uses.  No matter what fantasy story you read there are more powerful/influencial heroes then others.
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Veteranewbie
Veteranewbie


Adventuring Hero
posted December 30, 2007 11:18 AM
Edited by Veteranewbie at 11:19, 30 Dec 2007.

Quote:
*nods*.  However, if facing Deleb there are other heroes/towns you can use to counter her if you wish.  Balista are a lot easier to destroy then say a catapault.  Sure you'd have to do it quick, but even goblin saboteurs can keep it from working.  I'm not saying the game should not be more balanced, just that it does make sense in the fantasy setting that Homm uses.  No matter what fantasy story you read there are more powerful/influencial heroes then others.


Well I think you should separate Campaign from Custom Game
For Campaign heroes I don't really care how powerful they are (as they're supposed to be more powerful), and they're not in Custom Game anyway
But for Custom Game we all know it's about fairness and competition, so everything Custom Game should focus on is balance

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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted December 30, 2007 11:22 AM

Well I was not specifically talking about that either.  Yes, balance is good.  To be perfectly balanced, however, you would need the following.

1) A random map
2) Random Towns
3) Random Heroes
4) Most heroes disabled
5) The random map to somehow be equal for everything (artifacts, creatures/numbers of those creatures) resources, the whole nine yards.

See even with disabling specific heroes, starting area can influnce as well as what guards what, and what artifacts are found.  You do make a very good point however.
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted December 30, 2007 11:27 AM

It's impossible to find pure balance in random in anything.
Like life wouldnt it be dull if everything was balanced & similar.
Spontanious.
If it's unbalance, so what.
In the old days we brought along unbalance & the good players can still win, even if a map is unbalanced.

I prefer random over balance.
If Random happens to be balanced. Thats cool too.Just dont let us know how balanced it is until we are done
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roy-algriffin
roy-algriffin


Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
posted December 30, 2007 11:31 AM

I think its nigh impossible to have totally balanced variety heroes. A hero that boosts crossbowmen will always be better then one that boosts gremlins (if its a boost by an equal amount)
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted December 30, 2007 11:37 AM

Every creature are unique in thier own way.
Thats why each town is equal in thier own way as well.
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted December 30, 2007 11:39 AM

@Aculias I agree.  That was my point.  If you are truely good, it should not matter which town/hero you have and which town/hero your enemy has.  You should still be able to win.  Yet people seem to only want to play certain towns/heroes.  Like Jhora for Academy, or Ossir for Sylvan.  I don't care if your record is 100 wins 0 losses, if you HAVE to have a specific town and/or hero to get that record it is not indicative of your true skill.
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Veteranewbie
Veteranewbie


Adventuring Hero
posted December 30, 2007 11:51 AM

Quote:
@Aculias I agree.  That was my point.  If you are truely good, it should not matter which town/hero you have and which town/hero your enemy has.  You should still be able to win.  Yet people seem to only want to play certain towns/heroes.  Like Jhora for Academy, or Ossir for Sylvan.  I don't care if your record is 100 wins 0 losses, if you HAVE to have a specific town and/or hero to get that record it is not indicative of your true skill.


Well I don't blame people for using/wanting to use a powerful hero/town, it is human nature you know. That's why a balanced design is so important.
As for balance I'm not saying it has to be equal, just not that the advantage/disadvantage a town can enjoy/suffer is significantly over the others.

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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted December 30, 2007 11:52 AM

I see you missed the point.
You are confusing yourself from people who wants to have the upper hand & those who just let it ride.


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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted December 30, 2007 11:55 AM

They do have a point, however.  Especially for tournaments.  It seems everybody has to 'win' at all costs.  Even if that means only using a specific town/hero.  It is human nature, we are competitive.  Personally I like a challenge.  Even if I loose, I still learn more then if I took the easy way.
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted December 30, 2007 12:02 PM

It was really cutthroat back in my days of playing.
It was hugh & many played in different tournies.
Those elimination tournies are the best & most cutthroats.

It's great but sometimes players cheap to win.
Bad ettique (Yea I said it wrong so what) but still within the rules.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted December 30, 2007 01:08 PM

The fact that heroes are not equally influential in stories does not mean that it would have to apply in a game, you could have that in campaign stories where it would make a lot of sense. I like some randomness mind you and different combos but this should not mean that a hero is either good or bad as in heroes. All should have their flaws and strengths but not being so diverse in terms of power because of you get a crappy hero it is not fun. Just as it is no fun for me to be forced to take an unfavourable skill as sorcery for a demonlord. Leadership? Yes. Enlightenment? Yes. Light? Yes. A player that fights another hero of equal skill but one has Klaus and the other Ellaine will often be a one-sided battle. Of course it always depends on the map size and features but the former will have an edge.
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Duncan
Duncan


Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
posted December 30, 2007 07:07 PM

I think some heroes are created intentionally for support rather than the main, Ellaine is a perfect example. Except for Fortress's Ingvar, other towns have more than one uber-favorable hero, so a choice will be made more on the basis of playing style & exp of each player, which implies that the player skills still matter most. You mentioned "Jhora for Academy"; no, make a poll and I think we'll see some fair proportion among Jhora/Havez/Nur/Nathir/Razzak... (did I miss anyone?)

off-topic:
@Veteranewbie: Could you pls not ALWAYS quoting the whole post before making your own? It's very distracting. Thx.
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