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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Indipendance of Kosovo?
Thread: Indipendance of Kosovo? This thread is 12 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · «PREV / NEXT»
Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted February 20, 2008 11:21 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 23:32, 20 Feb 2008.

Quote:
We don't deserve to be your partners? About a half of Kosovo border is with Serbia... But never mind. It's not like anyone from here would go in a partnership with you anyway.
And we lost our morale to own Kosovo? On the contrary. We gained morale when we overthrew Milosevic. My people is not responsible for his crimes. After we've delivered Milosevic to the international tribunal for war criminals in Hague in 2000, that's for the last 8 years, the only ethnical crimes on Kosovo were against Serbs.

Sigh.
See, Seraph, we're not so different. We were both raised in tough economic conditions, in times of war and riots since our earliest age, fed from all sides with cheap propaganda and non-existent ideals, to grow to be obedient and do whatever they want us to do, in the endless cycle of dictatorship and nationalism one way or another.
The difference is, you chose to follow that path, and believe whatever they feed you with. And I chose to break out from it. I question them, I check things for myself, I decide myself who I'll love and who I'll hate. I will never say, "all Serbs are good and all Albanians evil". I know there are all kinds of people on both sides.
Cause, you see, kid, we're not each other's enemy here. It's our leaders who are our common enemies. But you refuse to even try to understand that. As do most of our countrymen. Cause it's far easier to view it all black and white.
And that's the sad thing.


kid?Hey,if I am a child than why do you argue with me?Go and speak to the politicans in your land that share your thoughts.
It not very good to make such words.Meh,now would it be kind for me to retaliate?

Well,what does our indepedence do with economy?Hey,we may work with serbs together but as seperate states.Its legitime in my opinion.I mean what?Cause of economy we should not have independence?Hey,till now I could never buy something from internet cuz I needed to go to belgrade to take which was impossible and our indepedence opens new ways for us to strive for prosperity.It is a new path to new ways.

Ps: Its different to be a state than a something in between state and mockery.


Edit:If you were ready to be partners for both republics problems,why did KFOR than block our borders?You are not ready not for partnetship but for anti-partnership,tomorow in belgrade there will be protests against kosovo,1 milion ppl are estimated to make their scene.Now what?

Edit:2 The difference between me and you is......  many things i guess.Its obious that the more I get with this "Talks" the more it becomes less appealing to continue with it.
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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted February 20, 2008 11:37 PM

Now Now ladies,lets not make this personall...
lets review this da facto:

PROS:
1.Kosovo as freedom as a country to do it own bidding and politics
2.kosovo-serb fractions as a part of serbia are somewhat ceazed.

CONS:
1.World order is desrupted,the EU looks at the kosovo as a one time strike ,but isent so,there are meny more minortys who want to be ceperted and are not reciving such option,so we are to face meny hazardess fights
2.kosovo might be to young,even before israel became indepdent,during time of the british mandate in israel,we had british-israely establishment ,and we upgraded it,during the indepedence war made an army,work places. Does kosovo has an army? do they have work place 60% unempolyment is sirouse stuff...
10% of serbian citzens in kosovo as i predict will face deportion,due to there 'loyalties' a war might start..pressures from the US and Russia will give YET another prove the cold war hasnt' really finished.
Now dont get me wrong,im for kosovo,for indepcey,i can really know what there going though,BUT it might be a tad too soon?
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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted February 21, 2008 12:10 AM

Quote:
Hey,if I am a child than why do you argue with me?

I don't. I'm trying to explain something to you, or at least share my view. I said "kid" simply because your views on the matter seemed rather childish.

Quote:
Go and speak to the politicans in your land that share your thoughts.

Firstly, none do. I don't know of a single politician that shares my view. Secondly, as all politicians in the world, they are unreachable by us mortals. Thirdly, they are too busy fighting among themselves.
So I'm speaking with ordinary people. Because ordinary people could change it all, if they were just a bit more willing to think.

Quote:
Ps: Its different to be a state than a something in between state and mockery.

Kosovo currently is a mockery... The mockery of international law, and it most definitely isn't independent. That's the thing most fail to realize - Kosovo will probably not be accepted into UN, and will be ordered around by the West for the remainder of its existence. The 52nd state. A useful American vassal in Europe.

Quote:
If you were ready to be partners for both republics problems,why did KFOR than block our borders?You are not ready not for partnetship but for anti-partnership,tomorow in belgrade there will be protests against kosovo,1 milion ppl are estimated to make their scene.Now what?

I believe we are both aware that it is impossible for a country to immediately cooperate with one that just broke away from it. But I was talking about near future.
We have established solid diplomatic relations with Croatia, for example. It broke off some 15 years ago. In about a decade, Serbia and Kosovo can cooperate too.
But, for now, we wait. And see what happens. Cause there isn't much we can do, really.
I just don't know what they'll achieve with that protest, but never mind.

Quote:
Edit:2 The difference between me and you is......  many things i guess.Its obious that the more I get with this "Talks" the more it becomes less appealing to continue with it.

Meh.
You don't have to continue if you don't want to.
But I think you have the potential to see beyond what your superiors tell you to see.
Never mind. Maybe I just got a sudden attack of hope and peacefulness. Maybe there's no hope for some people after all.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted February 21, 2008 10:33 AM

Quote:
..We gained morale when we overthrew Milosevic. My people is not responsible for his crimes...
I think you are making things a little bit too easy here baklava. Would be the same to say: "German people haven't been responsible for Hitler's crimes in 1933-1945". Of course there were a handfull of guys who wanted him away. Who tried to kill him. But the majority of the population supported him. period. He promised soo many good things to them, he made soo well organized (but false) propaganda. Blamed the Jews for soo many things. And our folk believed every word.
And now u wanna tell me, ALL serbs disliked what Milosevic did? They all didn't want him to be no.1? They all didn't want the albanians to get dislodged?
Doubtfull in my eyes....very doubtful...
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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted February 21, 2008 10:48 AM
Edited by baklava at 10:48, 21 Feb 2008.

Quote:
I think you are making things a little bit too easy here baklava.

No, mate, I think you are.

Quote:
Would be the same to say: "German people haven't been responsible for Hitler's crimes in 1933-1945".

Well are they? Are you and your forefathers guilty for the holocaust? I don't think so.
The majority of the population supported Hitler because he lead such a campaign of propaganda (with Joseph Goebbels), as all dictators do, that the overwhelming majority didn't even know about the concentration camps. Not to mention that, before WW2, he had a decade of destroying any opposing forces or political enemies.
And I don't know if you are aware that protests against Milosevic were held constantly throughout the entire 90s, constantly, and that they were extinguished brutally by Milosevic's police, and at some points even tanks and armored vehicles. The majority of Serbs most definitely didn't support Milosevic, though there were idiots who did. Finally, in 2000, the majority of the people succeeded in taking him off. In the elections held then, about 80% of Serbs voted against Milosevic.

Quote:
And now u wanna tell me, ALL serbs disliked what Milosevic did? They all didn't want him to be no.1? They all didn't want the albanians to get dislodged?
Doubtfull in my eyes....very doubtful...

Let me quote myself.
"I will never say, "all Serbs are good and all Albanians evil". I know there are all kinds of people on both sides."
Please, please, read what I'm constantly saying before drawing such conclusions.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted February 21, 2008 10:49 AM

Quote:
Now Now ladies,lets not make this personall...
lets review this da facto:

PROS:
1.Kosovo as freedom as a country to do it own bidding and politics
2.kosovo-serb fractions as a part of serbia are somewhat ceazed.

CONS:
1.World order is desrupted,the EU looks at the kosovo as a one time strike ,but isent so,there are meny more minortys who want to be ceperted and are not reciving such option,so we are to face meny hazardess fights
2.kosovo might be to young,even before israel became indepdent,during time of the british mandate in israel,we had british-israely establishment ,and we upgraded it,during the indepedence war made an army,work places. Does kosovo has an army? do they have work place 60% unempolyment is sirouse stuff...
10% of serbian citzens in kosovo as i predict will face deportion,due to there 'loyalties' a war might start..pressures from the US and Russia will give YET another prove the cold war hasnt' really finished.
Now dont get me wrong,im for kosovo,for indepcey,i can really know what there going though,BUT it might be a tad too soon?


I have to agree with you about that too soon. Hopefully Kosovo doesn't flame like so many countires when they gain independence. The situation doesn't look good though. Huge unemployment, no strong law, two different nationalities, two different religions...
The only thing missing is a great famine.

Let's hope that with the world progressing the people have learned something too.
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted February 21, 2008 11:09 AM
Edited by angelito at 11:11, 21 Feb 2008.

Quote:
Quote:
Would be the same to say: "German people haven't been responsible for Hitler's crimes in 1933-1945".

Well are they? Are you and your forefathers guilty for the holocaust? I don't think so.
Of course they are. To an extend. They voted for him. They supported him. I do not talk about the concentration camps, coz as u pointed out correctly, 95% of the population didn't know about them. But I talk about the war. Remember the famous words of Goebbels? "Do you want the total war?" This is what he asked the folk. And they responded: "YEEEEEEEESSSSS"! The germans really bvelieved that time they were some kind of uber race. Ariens, who are better than any other race. Racicsm is always a bad thing. Be it in the year 1500, 1933 or 2008. Every german who had this idea in mind was guilty in my eyes.
But of course I am not guilty, nor is any german who was born 1935 or later guilty. No serb who will be born 2050 or later will be guilty for what Milosevic did in the end of the 20th century of course. But all serbs who were grown up that time (I think that excludes you if I recall your age correct) should ask him-/herself if he/she didn't support Milosevic's idea aswell. And especially the members of the army who committed most of these crimes should ask themselves if everything was alright what they did.

Quote:
Let me quote myself.
"I will never say, "all Serbs are good and all Albanians evil". I know there are all kinds of people on both sides."
Please, please, read what I'm constantly saying before drawing such conclusions.
I've read what u wrote. But I understand your posts, as if only around 5%-10% of the serbs were the bad ones, all others were angels (I exaggerate a bit). And this is for sure far from the truth.
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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted February 21, 2008 11:53 AM

Quote:
No serb who will be born 2050 or later will be guilty for what Milosevic did in the end of the 20th century of course

But those born before are?
How can you generalize like that?
Were you here when people marched in the streets in thousands to overthrow the bastard?

Quote:
But all serbs who were grown up that time (I think that excludes you if I recall your age correct) should ask him-/herself if he/she didn't support Milosevic's idea aswell. And especially the members of the army who committed most of these crimes should ask themselves if everything was alright what they did.

I live here for 16 years, since I was born. I have seen how much people support Milosevic. There were those like that, yes. But I saw that the overwhelming majority was against him. With my own eyes.
Communism, yes. There are those who support communism. There are those who liked Josip Broz Tito's regime, when Yugoslavia was still united.
But very few actually supported Milosevic.

The army does what it's told. That's why I hate military. But it was completely the same in all former Yugoslav republics.
The difference is, other Yugoslav republics were good off with their leaders (no matter how cruel those leaders were to those of other ethnicities). They got independence, support from the West, and started reconstructing after the wars.
Milosevic, on the other hand, got Serbia under international sanctions, and his corrupt regime brought the largest hyperinflation EVER SEEN in the history of the world.
No matter how dumb or barbaric you may think we are, the majority of us DID NOT like a leader that brought us on the verge of famine and sent our children to die and kill for nothing. No matter how strange that sounds.
The soldiers on the front got in a sad circle of vengeance and counter-vengeance. Village by village of Serbs, Bosniaks and Kosovars was burned by different opposing forces. Those who refused to kill civilians were shot or otherwise harshly punished by their superiors, who were told to do so by their governments. There was a case when Milosevic's troops murdered a Serb that tried to defend a Bosniak. That was a reign of madness.

Milosevic had most support by villages in enemy regions, who had absolutely no other hope of survival except turning to him and his army. And he betrayed even them.

Quote:
I've read what u wrote. But I understand your posts, as if only around 5%-10% of the serbs were the bad ones, all others were angels (I exaggerate a bit). And this is for sure far from the truth.

Alright. What do you think? After a hyperinflation, several wars, demonstrations, international sanctions, NATO bombing and brutal authoritarianism, what percentage of us do you think supported Milosevic?
70%? 80%? ALL OF US?

Like I said, the elections showed how many Serbs supported Milosevic. That was some 20%. So my people certainly aren't guilty. And neither are German, Croatian, Bosniak, or any other.
A whole people can never be guilty.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf

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antipaladin
antipaladin


Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
posted February 21, 2008 12:05 PM

Quote:

A whole people can never be guilty.


yes they can ,guilty of not doing anything!
what are mostly of the german feels guilty,is not for the murder of milions,but for knowing(those who did know) what is going on and not stoping it..
you know the poem
"when they took the jews i said nothing,couse im not a jew,
when they took the communist i said nothing,couse im not a communist,
when they took the clergy i said nothing couse im not a priest,
but when they took me,no body left to say anything".

The Crime of being an accessery to evil,are big faulty..the fact that meny serbians knew what milosevich did and still act nothing to stop him,IS a crime,and so is for the germans.

I dont hate all the germans becouse of the nazis,i can make diffe from german and nazi,hack i love german lenguage it sounds buitfull to me,Icht bin nine shprehen gut dutcha,firshtian? and nor do i hate all arabs or palastines,hack i have a few arabic frindes that i call a true good people,but i hate those who murder,and kill,be it israely,german,nazi serb or kosovar,no one has the right to kill.

you both are right,but instead of looking WHO TO BLAIM in milosevic and hitler acts of war against humenity look how to make surei t wont happen again.
Germany strives to do it ,Does the Serbs Do?
The reason hitler and milosevic became so powerfull is becouse of the people,they gave them the power and they knew how to use it.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted February 21, 2008 12:46 PM

Quote:

I live here for 16 years, since I was born. I have seen how much people support Milosevic. There were those like that, yes. But I saw that the overwhelming majority was against him. With my own eyes.


Yes, and according to that logic, through my eyes, my country is with no racism and violence. But surprisingly we are ahead of most counties in Europe on the statistics on these matters. It makes a HUGE difference in which crowd you are; who your friends are.

This comment it without any opinion on who supported who. But merely to point out that the world around is not always what it seems.

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baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted February 21, 2008 12:48 PM
Edited by baklava at 12:52, 21 Feb 2008.

Quote:
yes they can ,guilty of not doing anything!

10 years of protests, raising a revolution and delivering Milosevic on a plate to the international tribunal for war criminals is "not doing anything"?
If that's not enough, do tell me what is it that we needed to do then.

Quote:
instead of looking WHO TO BLAIM in milosevic and hitler acts of war against humenity look how to make surei t wont happen again.
Germany strives to do it ,Does the Serbs Do?

Well pretty much, yes. A democratic regime and choosing a pro-European leader instead of a radical is pretty much the attempt to prevent wars in future.

@Minion
There's violence and criminal everywhere. But it's the individuals who commit crimes that are guilty; not your entire people.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted February 21, 2008 12:56 PM

Quote:

@Minion
There's violence and criminal everywhere. But it's the individuals who commit crimes that are guilty; not your entire people.


With that of course I whole heartedly agree. But I was addressing the point of popularity though.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted February 21, 2008 01:38 PM

Quote:
But those born before are?
How can you generalize like that?
This time u didn't read well. I said all those should ASK THEMSELVES if they did everything correct. They are possibly guilty, while others who either were too young (like yourself) or even weren't born that time (2050 was just an example, I could have written 2000 aswell....) aren't even POSSIBLY guilty.
Quote:
Were you here when people marched in the streets in thousands to overthrow the bastard?
No, I have to admit I haven't been. So every information I have from that time is either from news (tv, newspaper) or from serbs/kosovars who I met that time. And there were some strange changings going on that time. I knew 2 guys from yugoslavia (1 serb, 1 kosovar) at my work, who stopped talking to each other from the time the balkan war began, and even started to hate each other. Just because both countries had war, they both started to have their private war too. That was really disturbing.

Quote:
The army does what it's told. That's why I hate military. But it was completely the same in all former Yugoslav republics.
I am also talking about killing kids, raping girls and women and similar things, which I guess happened on both sides. But those things seem to happen in any war on any continent with any ethnic background. Sad but true..

Quote:
Like I said, the elections showed how many Serbs supported Milosevic. That was some 20%. So my people certainly aren't guilty. And neither are German, Croatian, Bosniak, or any other.
A whole people can never be guilty.
The intersting question now would be, how many supported him DURING the war? Hitler recieved around 25% in his election for chancellor 1933. But when the war started and everything went well for the germans, I think he had a support of at least 70%.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted February 21, 2008 09:29 PM

So I hear / read Serbs are tearing apart their own capital huh?

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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted February 21, 2008 10:45 PM

Seems like some ppl there were more interested in robbing the shops than raising their voice against kosovo independence. Behold the power of chaos.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted February 21, 2008 11:34 PM

U.S. Embassy Attacked

My country's own citizens are being attacked. Why do these riot people act like Iranians?
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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted February 22, 2008 12:30 AM

Unidentified burned body found in USA embassy. This is getting out of proportions.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 22, 2008 12:43 AM

Nationalism is so dumb...
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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted February 22, 2008 06:57 AM
Edited by Vlaad at 07:48, 22 Feb 2008.

Anyone interested in the situation in Belgrade might want to bookmark the English homepage of the independent TV station B92 (their videos are also available at youtube, but in Serbian only).

The hooligans who set fire to the US embassy are mostly small-time thugs, soccer fans, drunk youths etc. Their idea of patriotism is looting the local shops for a pair of sneakers (American, ironically).

The real issue is why the embassy wasn't protected by the police from the very beginning. Not only were these riots expected, but they had also been encouraged by some of the government officials the day before yesterday:
Quote:
Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica and President Boris Tadic have called for an end to street violence, which they say is detrimental to the country.

The Infrastracture Minister Velimir Ilic sees things somewhat differently. "It is no wonder that the Serb youth, who went out in the streets to protest the snatching of Kosovo, broke a few windows on the U.S. and other embassies," he said, and added, "that's democracy."

"They [the US] break our country, we break a couple of their windows... they must have seen this coming, to learn about democracy," the controversial minister said.
I wonder whether he finds the charred body democratic...

In addition, another minister had previously found that setting the Kosovo checkpoints on fire was "in line with the government's policy".

Hopefully the violence was not covertly initiated by the political leaders, seeking the partition of the breakaway province... and an opportunity to deal with the opponents within Serbia.

As for the peaceful part of the rally, it was staged in the worst tradition of Milosevic's 1990s rallies.
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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted February 22, 2008 09:20 AM
Edited by watcher83 at 09:21, 22 Feb 2008.

without trying to make any real point here I'm just gonna say a few words
I cannot look at Kosovo as an independent state, they won their independence by violence and slavery to the western powers.
I also believe that it is a dangerous precedent, what if a couple of people from a different ethnic group in any country decide to proclaim there independence and gain the help of the west by allowing them certain "facilities" which the sovereign state wouldn't?
I wonder how would the french feel about the independence of Corsica which would be recognised by the US, UK and Russia?
Or what if a band of hungarians start to do the same thing in my country.
At least I can assure you that this won't happen without a war.
A country can't just lose some teritories because a group of people backed by westerners decide that it is the right thing to do.

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