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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Races or Themes?
Thread: Races or Themes? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Moonlith
Moonlith


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If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted January 20, 2008 11:16 PM

@ Sith_of_ziost: Regardless of the reason behind it, I just don't understand how people can enjoy playing a faction if they have to look at roughly the exact same unit in just about 4 tiers. There is faction for those who enjoy that, it's called Haven.

Just, enlighten me. How is Fortress an interesting lineup? xD It has nothing to do with that I like H3 Fortress better - the lineup plain stinks. Of course that's subjective but... Come on, explain it to me x.x

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silpion
silpion


Hired Hero
posted January 20, 2008 11:28 PM

I like it the way it is.
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Elvin
Elvin


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Endless Revival
posted January 20, 2008 11:56 PM

I'm pretty sure I have told you my thoughts at some point but it won't change anything
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Moonlith
Moonlith


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If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted January 21, 2008 01:19 AM

Of course not, because YOU ARE WRONG

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Elvin
Elvin


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Endless Revival
posted January 21, 2008 01:25 AM

Hehehe Check your hcm.
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sith_of_ziost
sith_of_ziost


Promising
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Scouting the Multiverse
posted January 21, 2008 01:32 AM

Alright, Moonlith. One question. In every other Fantasy RPG, do you like dwarves? If you don't, I need not back my post up again. Anyway, I like dwarves in general, so I like H5 Fortress.

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Elvin
Elvin


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Endless Revival
posted January 21, 2008 01:47 AM

The funny part is that normally I did not in other fantasy settings. Heroes was what made me like them.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


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If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted January 21, 2008 02:16 PM
Edited by Moonlith at 14:17, 21 Jan 2008.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind dwarves. But I don't like the idea of having to look at the same face and unit for about 4 tiers, with the only difference being statistics and abilities!

If every faction had a walker, shooter, stronger walker, cavalry unit, and shooter/caster in their lineup, each of the SAME race, with only the race type being different per faction, I like to consider those filler units and uncreative.

While it might be true any race can be diverse in the weapons they use, I just don't feel it creates very interesting units, spots that could have been taken by far more interesting mythical creatures.

If I want to look at the same race for more than 4 tiers, I'll play Haven. And it's fine for Haven to have such kind of lineup.

But if it you use it for more lineups it just gets boring and uncreative. Basicly you'd always be playing with the exact same lineup with the only difference being the race.

Shieldguard  Peasant   Let's call him ELF ROOKIE
Harpooner    Archer    Hunter
Berserker    Squire    Bladedancer
Patriarch    Priest    Druid

Like wow, the sheer creativity and diversity in units in these lineups is amazing! I really don't know which to pick! (let's not even BEGIN to discuss the amazing mythological background of the "harpooner" (One that hunts whales into extinction for money)).

Yeah I know, in the end it's all statistics and types regardless of the units, but it's about what you're looking at. For me, one dwarf is enough. At the most, two. I just don't see the necessity in having 4+ tiers in a lineup occupied by the same race, if only to fill up places for a lack of finding decent mythology creatures.

I DO agree there shouldn't be more than one race in a faction though, unless there is a REALLY good and logical reason for it. But I still don't think that means that that ruling race should be present in more than 2 or 3 tierlevels of their lineup - Haven excepted.

Take a look at Sylvan for example. Woodelf archers and Druids are valid elf creatures that everyone can imagine, things that are at the foreground in most fantasy worlds. Bladedancers, are less known, less logical, and more of a newly found concept - a filler. And is it really needed? Personally I think two elf units work just fine in a harmonious faction with various forest creatures.

No one ever complained about Academy either - just mages (1 unit!) with their constructs and slaves.

Both those two offer a wild and good variety of mythical creatures - quite perfectly fitting into their faction's context. Something that H5 Fortress lacks, greatly.

Again, I just don't see what's so fun about looking at the same dwarf over and over again - I'm not talking about gameplay here. They could make runes as awesome and powerfull and fun as they could, but that still doesn't make the faction lineup anything special.

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Gnoll_Mage
Gnoll_Mage


Responsible
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posted January 21, 2008 03:13 PM
Edited by Gnoll_Mage at 15:13, 21 Jan 2008.

As someone said before, why is it okay for Haven to have a race-based lineup, but not any of the other races? Or do you just want one single race with lots of race units, whichever race it may be? Those few of you who followed the development of my game will remember that I even went so far that I ended up with positive discrimination on everything but the humans - there was no human town...

Personally, I do like some race-based towns, and some less so. Pretty much like we have now really. But I also like a variation of mythological units too, on top of the race creatures. There's only one solution... more units!
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Daystar
Daystar


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Back from the Dead
posted January 21, 2008 03:33 PM

Agreed!

I think Moonlith has a valid point, but at the same time I'm not sure what you would do about some things, eg, the Blade Dancers: What would you replace them with that would have the same function?
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted January 21, 2008 03:44 PM

That's actually one point I'm breaking my head over right now as well I'm considering Satyrs, but they don't fit with woodelves I feel. They may share forests, but not factions.

Heck, just to illustrate my desperation: I even considered walking mushrooms! Or another fairy unit.

I'm afraid the bladedancer is, in fact, the only valid choice, but going with such train of thoughts will inevitably lead me to making factions with 5+ units of the same race. I want to avoid that.


And, again, I really really REALLY must stress this, for I keep feeling I'm misunderstood: I DO approve of race-based towns. But 2 or 3 tier levels holding that race is more than enough. That's my whole issue with it, and Fortress is simply an extreme example of it.

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Daystar
Daystar


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Back from the Dead
posted January 21, 2008 03:55 PM

I forgot to mention I agreed about the Harpooners.

I also thought of Satyrs.  If Centaurs were still available I would suggest putting them in but they're...not.

[searching through excell files of creatures, checking grimories and bestiaries...]

Actually what I would like to have there is a Werewolf.  
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 21, 2008 06:10 PM

Quote:
If I want to look at the same race for more than 4 tiers, I'll play Haven. And it's fine for Haven to have such kind of lineup.

You still haven't answered why it's okay for Haven...

Quote:
But if it you use it for more lineups it just gets boring and uncreative. Basicly you'd always be playing with the exact same lineup with the only difference being the race.

Shieldguard  Peasant   Let's call him ELF ROOKIE
Harpooner    Archer    Hunter
Berserker    Squire    Bladedancer
Patriarch    Priest    Druid

If you think that Harpooner and Hunter or Berserker and Squire aren't too different then so are Basilisk and a Dragon - they're both lizard-like, and so are a centaur and a cavalier - both look more or less like a man on a horse.

Quote:
Like wow, the sheer creativity and diversity in units in these lineups is amazing! I really don't know which to pick! (let's not even BEGIN to discuss the amazing mythological background of the "harpooner" (One that hunts whales into extinction for money)).

You can't possibly compare HoMM to WoW. You can try to compare HoMM to Warcraft, but then you'll see that Warcraft doesn't have too many mythical creatures as well (IIRC), especially taking into account it has only 4 factions.

Quote:
I just don't see the necessity in having 4+ tiers in a lineup occupied by the same race, if only to fill up places for a lack of finding decent mythology creatures.

Who said they are mere fillers? Maybe a 4+ dwarven faction is more logical than a 2 dwarves + beasts faction? Which it is, like someone (I think it was Sith) tried to explain before.

Quote:
Bladedancers, are less known, less logical, and more of a newly found concept - a filler.

Why are they less logical and why is a newly found concept has to be a filler?
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted January 22, 2008 01:02 AM

I will take the liberty here to quote myself from earlier this day:

Quote:
We must accept that everybody has the rights to have their own oppinions, and while we may not always agree with them, that does not make their oppinion less valid than our own.


This is not to put an end to what I think is an interesting discussion, but remember that once things get very subjective, we cannot always reach an agreement - and if that's the case, getting heated or personal will not help the issue.

Please remember that.
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sith_of_ziost
sith_of_ziost


Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
posted January 22, 2008 01:15 AM

As I have no feelings to insert, Alc, I think my statements are rather logical. Now to rebutt

Now, Moonlith, I understand exactly where you're coming from. You yourself said [paraphrase] that putting more than two or three is a sign of a bad imagination. [/paraphrase] Well, I must stress that the Dwarves can't have any associated "mythos" creatures. Since dwarves are based from the Norse mythology, save the giants and the three big beasts, there are no non-humanoid creatures associated with dwarves. Maybe the one exception you could make is the Wolf, but that is already a neutral. So, Garm and Fenrir are both gone. Jormundgand is also gone since its one it itself (unless you add the Kraken). Giants, they're humanoid. So, the dwarves couldn't help but be nothing but themselves.

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted January 22, 2008 01:21 AM
Edited by Moonlith at 01:27, 22 Jan 2008.

Quote:
Quote:
If I want to look at the same race for more than 4 tiers, I'll play Haven. And it's fine for Haven to have such kind of lineup.

You still haven't answered why it's okay for Haven...

Because Haven is an easy and commonly known Fantasy element. Human kingdom, knights, archers, paladins, all are easy to relate to. Obviously, because we are humans ourselves. Of course I don't deny the existance of diverse roles in other fantasy cultures and races, but they are not as easy to relate to, and if you have more lineups like Haven, the game, at least to me, becomes quite boring.

Quote:
Quote:
But if it you use it for more lineups it just gets boring and uncreative. Basicly you'd always be playing with the exact same lineup with the only difference being the race.

Shieldguard  Peasant   Let's call him ELF ROOKIE
Harpooner    Archer    Hunter
Berserker    Squire    Bladedancer
Patriarch    Priest    Druid

If you think that Harpooner and Hunter or Berserker and Squire aren't too different then so are Basilisk and a Dragon - they're both lizard-like, and so are a centaur and a cavalier - both look more or less like a man on a horse.

Basilisk and Dragon differ in the abilities that commonly define their creature, and it is what sets them apart. Dragon: Firebreath. Basilisk: Petrifying gaze. Yes, you can distinguish Berserker and Squire through abilities, but they aren't anything special and unique to the unit itself. The fact Squire and Berserker are given abilities is because it is NECESSARY: For Basilisks and Dragons, their abilities come natural. They are what define them as species.

Centaurs are unique fantasy creatures existing in lore, that's how they differ from cavaliers. While Berserker, Patriarch, Harpooner, and Shieldguard, are all the same creature: Dwarf.

Quote:
Quote:
Like wow, the sheer creativity and diversity in units in these lineups is amazing! I really don't know which to pick! (let's not even BEGIN to discuss the amazing mythological background of the "harpooner" (One that hunts whales into extinction for money)).

You can't possibly compare HoMM to WoW. You can try to compare HoMM to Warcraft, but then you'll see that Warcraft doesn't have too many mythical creatures as well (IIRC), especially taking into account it has only 4 factions.

.... Wut? Where did I mention Warcraft? I'm not following you here...

Quote:
Quote:
I just don't see the necessity in having 4+ tiers in a lineup occupied by the same race, if only to fill up places for a lack of finding decent mythology creatures.

Who said they are mere fillers? Maybe a 4+ dwarven faction is more logical than a 2 dwarves + beasts faction? Which it is, like someone (I think it was Sith) tried to explain before.


Well that's where we differ in opinion then As it is, I find the H5 Fortress lineup to be boring to look at, and as a result, not enjoyable to play.

Quote:
Quote:
Bladedancers, are less known, less logical, and more of a newly found concept - a filler.

Why are they less logical and why is a newly found concept has to be a filler?


It's because melee elves obviously exist, but are RARE and UNCOMMON in many fantasy worlds.

And as far as I know, Heroes of Might and Magic has always, originally, been a game that combined most of the more known mythological creatures and fantasy elements in one game - they never went innovative with inventing new monsters, creatures, or elements, and I think that's a good thing. Elf archers and druids - quite common. Bladedancers - new concept. It was only untill Heroes 4 that they came up with new stuff, like venomspawns.

Yes it might work, but on this note, I favour tradition. Keep Heroes of Might and Magic a game that combines creatures commonly found in lore into one game, and don't make up new stuff!


@sith_of_ziost: That's exactly my point! Now, there are obviously some mythological creatures originating from Norse mythology. Firegiants are common, wolves obviously, Trolls, dwarves, regular giants. Age of Mythology held quite an arsenal of mythic creatures in the norse factions.

But you make an interesting note. There wouldn't be enough decent units to fill up a dwarf faction if only 2 or 3 can be dwarf. And that's exactly my point: if that's the case, DON'T make the faction.

Now I'm aware many people like dwarves, and as much as they deserve their own faction, I just don't think it should be forced when it can't be filled with enough interesting creatures. If that's the case, make them neutrals. I'm probably gonna get flamed for saying this XD

Note though I wouldn't care too much about the, in my opinion, poorly designed Dwarf faction, if it hadn't replaced a far more interesting one.

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sith_of_ziost
sith_of_ziost


Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
posted January 22, 2008 01:41 AM

There's the thing: The Dwarves had already been mentioned, and, therefore, had to be made to fill the storyline vacuum, since emissaries were sent out in hope's to assist Isabel in her War. They had to come.

PS: Don't bring up the Sea Elves just because I said the Dwarves had to be there.
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Elvin
Elvin


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Endless Revival
posted January 22, 2008 02:19 AM

Please, the fact that we know elves traditionally as archers does not mean that melee warriors are a new concept. In both D&D and Tolkien's world and I'm sure many others you will see elven swordsmen. Now whether they use twin swords or not that's another case.

About the dwarves they are like the humans but given different roles. Just as we have paladin they have thane and as we have cavalry they ride bears. Not being to relate to them is just as subjective, was quite the opposite to me. In reality they do not differ from the humans in concept except they are more interesting to play with. And you let the look of the lineup get in the way of your enjoying them which is a shame.
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sith_of_ziost
sith_of_ziost


Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
posted January 22, 2008 02:33 AM

And to further the point, the Runes are to the Dwarves like the Chivalrous codes and light magic is to Haven. It is just what makes them unique. I mean, sure, you can bring up all the racial skills, but the Runes for the dwarves is their religion under Arkath. Arkath only lets the dwarves in his breadth. Therefore, the dwarves had to be nothing but themselves (déjà vu). Kind of symbolic, both the factions who revere Elrath (Dwarves and Humans) are nothing but their own race. (connection made) Those races who worship a god are very racial and those who spawns from a god (or don't have one) are thematic. Epiphany!
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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted January 22, 2008 03:39 AM

Quote:
the three big beasts


Erm, which were those then?  Fenrir the Terrible, Jormungand the Long, and...?  If you mean Loki's three children, the last, Hel, was not a beast.

And there are a lot of creatures available:  Tomte, Halflings, Trolls, Giants, Enherjar/Valkirie, Dragons, and many animals with mystical attributes.
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