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| Thread: New Battle System | |
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InfernoX880
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 02, 2008 09:15 PM |
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New Battle System
Some of you may have read that small passage I wrote regarding a new battle system that I would recommend in the upcoming title. Here, I will discuss it in more detail, and look for feedback.
The Basics
Battlefields will be based on the combat situation you are in. What that means is the the battlefield will vary in size, but will still be considerably larger at all times than the battlefield that exists now. The size of the battlefiled would be determined by creature sizes and amounts, allowing for 7 Large Creatures to still fit successfully on the battlefield.
Now when I say the battlefield is bigger, I mean a lot bigger. You won't be able to view the entire battlefield, but you will have a small "mini-mini-map" that nicely depicts where allies and enemies are located on the battlefield as well as some other things I will get into later. The current minimal battlefield measures at 10x12. The propoased new minimal would be at around 20x2412x16, exactly four times the size of the original. And you would be able to scroll around the battle field to view various strategic approahces. But your "mini-mini-map" would always be there to allow you to view things more clearly.
And that would be the minimal battle arena, with the maximal being around 30x36 20x24 (I am keeping all the proportions the same). Overall there would be about 5 different size battlefields based on situation. With enormous battlefields like the 20x24 one, you might not notice everything. Though there would be a zoom out option, it would be limited, but it would allow you to view the battlefield to an extent where there is nothing you can miss, allowing the camera to cover roughly 70% of the battlefield.
Now how would all this work? Quite simple. In order to avoid facing neutrals on a large battlefield early in the game, there needs to be a power factor, and the battlefield obviously needs to be larger when Large Creatures enter the field. So here is what everything would generally look like:
Small Cretaures  5 per stack
Large Creatures 20 per stack
Then the tiers:
Tier 1 1 per stack
Tier 2 2 per stack
Tier 3 3 per stack
Tier 4 4 per stack
Tier 5 8 per stack
Tier 6 12 per stack
Tier 7 15 per stack
In this way, you will be facing higher tier creatures, assuming you are playing against those in the late game, on larger battlefields. Now the battlefields:
12x16 30 or less total
14x18 31 - 80
16x20 81 - 130
18x22 131 - 190 also Siege Battles against Forts, Citadels, Castles
20x24 191+
The numbers indicate the total "points" acquired by calculating the value of each creature on both sides of the field. The largest battlefield makes for the more epic battles and is approximately nine times the size of the standard battlefield in Heroes of Might and Magic V.
Positioning and Impact of the Hero
With such large battlefields, however, it is all too obvious that you will have way more than enough room for your creatures. That is true, but this allows for a more strategic element. Firslty, with such large battlefields, archers will have range. The range can be very high in the case of creatures like Sharpshooters, or quite low with those basic Archers from Haven. They will no longer be able to pelt enemies with arows from the other side of the ability. I will discuss that more a little later.
You basically get the first two rows for positioning, as in Heroes 5. You hero is still in the rear lines, but this time his impact is a little different. The conflict will revolve around capturing ground. So you will start immeadiately with the first two rows, and with Tactics you will acquire the third row. A bar along the top or bottom of the screen will indicate how much of the battlefield you have captured. As you advance, the ground you trod across is captured, on your ammount of territory increased. As the amount of ground secured increases, your hero can also advance deeper into the battlefield. If an enemy unit happens to be within a set amount of spaces from your Hero, your Hero can melee attack for fair damage.
Spells will work differently as well, having only a limited range. Increased knowledge of the arcane can increase this range. The same will apply for Leadership bonuses and to some extent Luck. Luck, however, will work on a different basis. Your hero devlops the Luck skill with the percents 70%, 85% and 100% respective to the mastery. At the beginning of every unit's turn, that unit's luck is chosen at random, and can range from -3 to 3. Certain spells can change this, and make the minimum -5 or the maximum +5 as well as increase or decrease the chances of getting positive luck in the beginning of each turn. If the Hero is positioned close to his units, the Luck percents previously listed are applied, and the chances of getting positive Luck increase. In the beginning, the chance of getting positive Luck is 50% and the same with negative Luck. When the positive of negative value is chosen, the game then chooses randomly either 1, 2 or 3 to give the final Luck bonus. Luck can only be at 0 if it is completely negated by spells, artifacts etc.
Ranged Heroes have range that is based on a similar foundation to the Archers.
As for the position of the Hero, this can be decided during the Hero's turn, and he can move anywhere in the territory you have captured.
Archers and Mages
Archers have a basic range as do ranged Mages. This range can be extended by means of artifacts, spells etc. as well as by tactical positioning. If an Archer is positioned on flat ground, he gains no range. If he is on high ground, he gains +2 range. If he is attacking a unit on higher ground, he loses 2 range. If he is shooting over high ground, the damage is reduced by 50%. Mages cannot shoot over high ground, however, they can cast spells. A Mages spell range can only be increased when the Mage is positioned close to a learned hero that will then provide the bonus. Archers can also gain range bonuses from the Hero.
Flying
Units capable of flight can travel into the skies at any moment. There turns are still acknowledged, but they will have to land to reenter combat. Certain units like the Red Dragon can still attack from the air. Units are still visible above the ground, and can be either shot down or countered with other aerial units. In order to avoid easy wins, an aerial unit can only stay above ground level for 3 turns, after which it must spend five turns before taking flight again. The animation for flight will be like the current flight animation in dragons, only higher above the ground. At all other times, dragons will not be flying, they will instead rest on the ground. Note that Bone Dragons are incapable of flight.
Teleporting
Teleportation is an activated ability that wastes half the unit's turn. It allows the unit to access any spot on the battlefield. In the case of Siege Battles, teleporting behind enemy walls wastes the entire turn.
Siege Battles
The main difference is the simple fact that all units defending benefit from hero benefits regardless of how far away they are from their ally. The dfender does not gain territory anymore, but the offender still does. The Catapult becomes more accurate as it gets closer to enemy walls. Towers can strike enemy units from a fair distance, but no from the start of combat. Also, the tactical positioning of the defender is changed, allowing 4 rows of positioning, and placing ranged units on the walls for +3 range. If the wall segment is destroyed, the stack is blown into the city suffering high damage and losing ranged capabilities for the remainder of the battle. The Hero defending can only cast spells on enemies who have breached the city.
Siege Machines
The Ballista works like an Archers and a Hero combined. It can be moved during its own turn, but only in your territory. It has higher range than most archers.
The First Aid Tent has one set position. If any unit comes close to the First Aid Tent, it can regenrate lost HP, wasting only half of its turn (this means it acts again half a turn later).
The Ammo Cart allows +200 arrows to all adjacent Archers. It also increases their range by +1.
The Battering Ram makes its way across the battlefield slowly during a Sieg Battle, taking 100 moves to reach the gate (that is, every time a cretaure takes its turn, a move is counted). When it reaches the gate, it takes its own turns inflicting high damage. When the gate is destroyed, the Battering Ram begins to retreat. The gate is now 4 spaces wide.
The Catapult moves in territory like the Ballista. If a target is within 25 spaces, it has 30% accuracy. At 20 spaces, it has 45% accuracy. A 15 spaces it has 65% accuracy. At 10 spaces, it has 80% accuracy. 10 spaces is the closest the catapult can get to the castle. The Catapult ability increases accuracy by 20%.
Regarding Aerial Combat
I mentioned Aerial Combat earlier, but didn't quite get into it. I still haven't thought of how exactly this would look like, but essentially, it occurs when two enemies take to the skies. When they are above the battlefield, you can only control their final destination, or in some cases the area they will attack from the sky. However, if the route to your final destination and your opponent's final destination cross each other, there is a 50% chance of conflict. In this case, each unit is attacked once and both units land within 5 spaces of where they were found in the air.
Morale
Morale is something I've been thinking about, but I think I have some sort of solution at long last. Morale is impacted by several factors, mainly terrain (friendly terrain results in +1 morale, other terrain does not give or take morale), Hero skills, and army alignment. Morale has a maximum of 10, or better said, 100%. At 100% morale, a unit gains special bonuses, similar to those currently provided by Blood Rage, bu the bonuses are the same throughout the faction. That is, Peasants and Imps will have different bonuses, but Paladins and Peasants will have the same.
The bonuses can range from extra speed, initiative, defense, or reduce damage at the cost of morale, and of course a chance at a hastened next turn rises with higher morale. Morale is lost when a unit is attacked, afflicted by Dark Magic, or affected negatively by an ability. The percent of morale lost depends on the damage over maximum damage, skill level of the spell, and all abilties simply have set morale depletion rates.
At negative morale, a unit does not lose any stats, but has a chance of having its own turn delayed. Morale can be regained by inflicting damage, standing alongside higher tier creatures of a similar alignment, blessing spells, and abilities.
Final Notes
That's it for now. If you incquire about anything I've missed about the battlefield, or make suggestions, I'll be sure to update it.
EDIT: Apologies to TDL, who wrote a similar article not too long ago. Still, I believe my idea to be different, and therefore have a right to post it.
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Andrelvis
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 03, 2008 04:45 AM |
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Interesting ideas. Have you played a game called Imperialism? In it's tactical battles (which resemble very much HoMM ones) it has an interesting take on morale: Units have two bars, one for Life and one for Morale. When the unit is hit, it loses Life according to the damage it received, and loses Morale according to the damage modified by how skilled the General is. When it's Morale is depleted, it starts trying to run away (in the edge of the battlefield are tiles with white dots on them, and if the unit enters those tiles, it retreats from the battle). If an unit with no Morale is encircled, it surrenders.
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InfernoX880
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 03, 2008 01:58 PM |
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That would be a good idea for morale (I just noticed I omit the morale mechanics).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 03, 2008 03:42 PM |
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This is an interesting discussion, and I must admit your suggestion seems quite worked through - you do take care of my most immediate objections, like the problem with Destructive magic being very powerful when creatures are so far apart. Still, I'm not convinced - if we make the battlefield this large, but creatures - or Heroes - can't interact until they're close to each other, what's the point then? Then basically we start with a huge battlefield and need to waste time to wait for them to get closer to each other?
I also start to see a whole world of abuse in terms of hit'n'run tactics (like Furies now), but maybe that could be worked around also.
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What will happen now?
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InfernoX880
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 03, 2008 05:47 PM |
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Indeed, the battlefields do seem large. I guess I hadn't thought that through. I changed the sizes to a maximum of 20x24 in the primary post.
EDIT: A also made a correction regarding the Hero being able to attack creatures in melee. He has a limit to how far the creatures can be before he can attack them, so essentially it is a little worse than the ranged Heroes. The ranged heroes, however, inflict lesser damage and suffer range penalties.
EDIT 2: I also added the morale mechanics.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 04, 2008 08:33 AM |
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Well, when I objected it didn't have to mean you had to change it, I was more interesting in what thoughts you had done on the part. Personally, I like the small battlefield, but that's not saying it could not work with a larger one, especially if proper considerations were done. I think actually most of the objections I wrote above would apply equally well to a size 20 x 24 battlefield as to a size 30 x 36.
What I would like to know is more details on the whole Hero-on-the-battlefield thing. Will it work like Heroes 4, i.e. units can target hero? This was not quite the impression I got from what you wrote, but maybe I'm mistaken? Or will the Hero-on-the-field thing only have relevance for applying spells, i.e. which units will be targeted etc.?
Also, it's still not quite clear to me what is the real benefit of having these large battlefields. Ok, I know it will allow you to fit 7 large stacks, but honestly, how often do we need that? I can also see that it adds a certain new tactical element, but my fear is that a larger battlefield will render slow units even more useless than is the case - currently, speed 4 units are pretty useless in most situations except as meat shields, imagine how that would turn out on a size 24 or 36 battlefield. With 9 turns to cross, picking them down with Archers will be pretty much trivial. Of course, you could scale movement rates accordingly, but then again, what do we really win?
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What will happen now?
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InfernoX880
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 04, 2008 09:07 PM |
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Firstly, I changed the battlefield size because I too thought it was too big after some thought and the realization that others thought likewise. Second, a battlefield maximizing at four times the size of the current one isn't an extreme amount bigger, and remember that tha's as big as it would get. The only time you would play on that battlefield is in the later game.
Now the Hero mechanics is something I put thought into, and it is still incomplete. The Hero begins anywhere behind his troops. As his troops advance, the capture territory, perhaps shading the region in an appropriate color to demonstrate control. As they capture more territroy, the Hero can trod along captured grounds to continue providing various boosts. In time, this will also allow destructive casters to do damage. Like I said, this is only a primary idea, and is open to suggestions. I realize there are many flaws, but I think it's innovative and could be effective.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted February 05, 2008 12:52 AM |
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First off I agree with almost all of this, but I don't want to do a quote-by-quote "I agree  " 30 times, but I personally don't like this part:
Quote:
The First Aid Tent has one set position. If any unit comes close to the First Aid Tent, it can regenrate lost HP, wasting only half of its turn (this means it acts again half a turn later).
The Ammo Cart allows +200 arrows to all adjacent Archers. It also increases their range by +1.
The Battering Ram makes its way across the battlefield slowly during a Sieg Battle, taking 100 moves to reach the gate (that is, every time a cretaure takes its turn, a move is counted). When it reaches the gate, it takes its own turns inflicting high damage. When the gate is destroyed, the Battering Ram begins to retreat. The gate is now 4 spaces wide.
The Catapult moves in territory like the Ballista. If a target is within 25 spaces, it has 30% accuracy. At 20 spaces, it has 45% accuracy. A 15 spaces it has 65% accuracy. At 10 spaces, it has 80% accuracy. 10 spaces is the closest the catapult can get to the castle. The Catapult ability increases accuracy by 20%.
The first aid tent should me movable, by packing it up, moving it, and unpacking it, which would take a while, but is better than no being used by creatures 15 tiles away.
The ammo cart should move on its own, or be dragged by troops.
Battering ram and catapults shouldn't depend on other creatures, otherwise having fast creatures, or splitting stacks would help them.
The machines should have to be escorted wherever they go, or they'll get eaten by cavalry. (not an ability but a tactic balanced in)
Lastly, with these new mechanics, it might be wise to change war machines a lot. Not keeping the same ones, and allowing multiples, for instance.
Otherwise, I hope its not too late to implement this into H6
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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InfernoX880
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 05, 2008 03:21 AM |
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That is one section that I was not too proud of myself. Now that I've thought about it, I'll explain my main concern. The animation. It would have looked dumb to see units carrying and packing and unpacking a First Aid Tent. But now that I think about it, it could work on a drag-and-drop basis like the current Tactics in Heroes 5.
So the First Aid Tent and Ammo Cart sections are subject to revision.
Regarding the Battering Ram, I thought it was something nice and new, a slow paced unit that can make its way towards the gate and it has a lot of HP. I think that while the Catapult would be a default Siege Machine, the Battering Ram would need to be purchased.
There aren't many other new Siege Machines to experiment with though. One thought of mine was to use something similar to the mines in LOTR but things would become too complicated. Regarding Sieges, I also experimented with the idea of "boiling water" pouring on enemies, wihch would work out nice, because while one faction gets boiling water, another gets acid, or lava, or some destructive pixie dust. Still, that wouldn't be too good of an idea, as there would be no real way to use it, save for putting it on top of the gate to repel the oncoming Battering Ram.
Regarding new mechanics, I agree. But first we need to come up with some. My ideas for the Ballista haven't changed much. Regarding Ammo Cart, perhaps offers a variety of arrows? Flaming arrows? Problem is I can't think of anything new.
I'm happy to see this idea appeals to you guys (well the few people that actually responded, I have no idea what others think, presumably because it's too long to read).
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Andrelvis
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 05, 2008 11:49 AM |
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The First Aid Tent could pack and unpack itself, after all it is implicit that there is someone there inside who heals people. As for the animation for that, the drag and drop you suggested seems the best option.
For the Battering Ram, I would turn things around - making the Battering Ram the default siege machine and the catapult the purchasable one. The reason is that a catapult can do some things battering rams can't: it can shoot the towers, it can shoot from afar without being subject to heavy attack and doesn't experience damage from moats (if the battering ram is attacking a portion of the wall that isn't the gate). The battering ram would work nice as a sort of "melee version" of the catapult we already have. It could move and attack automatically (unless the respective ability is learned), but inflicting just melee attacks. However, a battering ram wouldn't walk around damaging different portions of the wall, it would keep attacking the same place. For the ability, instead of adding a new ability for a siege machine that would be kind of outdated later when the hero gets a catapult, it could do with a simple renaming of the Catapult ability to "Siege Machine" or something similar.
The Ammo Cart: I think it should not offer just better arrows (as the units would have little reason to not carry those arrows with themselves), but a variety of arrows that each would be better at some situation. For example, one with more range, but less damage (and another with the opposite effect). That way, the Ammo Cart would give your troops more flexibility.
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