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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Legalize Drugs?
Thread: Legalize Drugs? This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
baklava
baklava


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Mostly harmless
posted March 02, 2009 09:46 PM

Remember...
9 in Yemen. There's just the marriage catch.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted March 02, 2009 10:33 PM

Quote:
Are you joking? you don't distinct stolen goods and dirty money from legal goods, benefiting country?

You don't distinct honest merchant from a dirty smuggler with bloodstained hands?

What kind of question is that?
No, a "dirty smuggler" by NO MEANS will sell to everyone as easy or in the same numbers as, let's say, a legitimate dude. You said that people will "get it anyway". That's how some dudes got rich, you're right.

But not Bill Gates. Do you think he got rich because people "cracked and used cracked versions anyway"?

Quote:
Look, if someone doesn't care for his health, the stupid ticket from mr. policeman won't change a thing either.

If someone WANTS to take drugs, he will do it ANYWAY. No bans will help.
For most the average joe so to speak, yes it does change a LOT. You're saying something like:

"Hey, banks get robbed sometimes, so security is useless."

Question is: how MANY banks get, compared to without security at all.

otherwise, explain how Bill Gates got so rich. Because I can say it as well: if someone WANTS to use a cracked Windows and not pay, he will do it ANYWAY.

And by the way, governments (aka the ones who legalize) only care about numbers. Can't blame them, to be honest
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Retired Hero
posted March 02, 2009 10:37 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 23:01, 02 Mar 2009.

why do you compare ban on drugs to security?

It's like I tried to compare a dildo to an Iowa class battleship.

completely unrelated.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


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with serious business
posted March 02, 2009 11:32 PM

No I compare the "if people want X they will get X" to that

-> if people want drugs, they will get drugs.
-> if people want to rob that bank, they will rob it

the latter implies a lot more 'complications': you most certainly may need guns, a good escape plan, and even bribery. But then again, if they want guns, they'll get guns (even if banned), right?

Therefore security is mostly pointless. Even banning guns is pointless -- I mean, forget the fact that your common cousin won't get a gun. But who cares? I mean numbers don't matter, so if a terrorist or wanna-be-wacko just got a gun, then banning is useless, right? I mean if they can, everyone can, right? Or to put it in perspective: if they can, everyone (who would like a gun) WILL?

I don't know about you, but if I could get myself hold of a shotgun, and see it in a store, I would get it. On the other hand, it isn't quite legal around here, so if I see it, I will stay away from it. But I suppose I'm the only one who thinks like that, since banning is useless, except for me.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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Undefeatable Hero
posted March 03, 2009 05:17 AM

The problem with drugs being illegal is that it creates drug cartels, which also perform other crimes.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 03, 2009 07:17 AM

Yet another example for a useless point. As far as I see it, Death is discussing that it makes sense to ban weapons for personal use. He isn't saying anything about drugs, though, because drugs are no guns. Moreover, this is clearly an issue that comparisons are completely useless. If you want to argue drugs, argue DRUGS, not weapons.
We HAVE the situation that most stuff IS banned, and we even had the situation that alcohol has been banned. There is absolutely no reason to look for comparisons.

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Binabik
Binabik


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posted March 03, 2009 07:53 AM

Quote:
The problem with drugs being illegal is that it creates drug cartels, which also perform other crimes.


OMG! OMG! We'd better make EVERYTHING legal so we won't have any more criminals!

Seriously, that argument doesn't hold.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted March 03, 2009 08:42 AM

Oh, please, you know exactly what he means. It's the same with prostitution and gambling. It makes no sense to criminalize "the  vices" by making them illegal, because it won't have the desired effect on one hand, but will make everyone a criminal instead and hand over business to criminal organizations with desastrous consequences for the whole society.
"Vice" ain't "crime". Drinking some liquor, smoking pot, buying sex, placing sports bets and so on are hurting no one, as opposed to kidnap, extort, steal, murder, rape and so on, and that's why no one really views it as crime. It's viewed as parenting at the most.
We have to guard against the latter, since it's not tolerable, but do we have to guard against the former as well?
The answer is a simple no. Society must INFORM its members, not parent them and certainly not criminalize them, in all things pertaining themselves.
But there is a lot more to it. Think about how the criminalization of vices make people of (public) rank liable to blackmail. Corruption is in fact FOUNDED on it. It's most often the lever for real crime to gain a foothold, the first domino piece that falls and takes the others with it down. Criminalization of vices has done so incredibly much more harm in the history of humanity than the vices themselves that it's not even funny anymore.

If you really want to have an example beside the vices -

cosmetic surgery, including tattoos and piercings.

Is it a crime? No. Are there dangers? Well, OF COURSE. Are there indirect dangers for others? Sure (may never be the same again)...

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Mytical
Mytical


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Chaos seeking Harmony
posted March 03, 2009 09:02 AM

It is like the gun laws imo, the only people it affects are the law abiding ones.  Criminals will find a way to get guns (prostitutes, drugs, etc) whenever they want.  No I don't own a gun, and no I am not a member of the NRA (just to clarify).

Lets look at Amsterdam however.  Though Mary Jane is not technically legal (despite what you hear), they are rather ... lax about enforcement (as in hardly ever).  Prostitution IS legal.  Yet crime rates are pretty low.  Go figure.  I am not positive but I don't think their police even carry guns.

I say legalize both, and tax them.  Make it law that if a place is selling Mary Jane, that is ALL they can sell.  So that the 'oh lets pick some up while we are here' thing doesn't happen.  So far the war on drugs is a lost cause.  Might be time to rethink the strategy.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Retired Hero
posted March 03, 2009 10:40 AM

JJ summed it up well. Why are you guys insisting on childish logic like "if you think making drugs legal will make the problem gone, why don't you want to make raping legal"? It's not even funny.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted March 03, 2009 02:45 PM

Quote:
OMG! OMG! We'd better make EVERYTHING legal so we won't have any more criminals!
If drug laws were the only laws being broken, perhaps it would be less of a problem. But breaking drug laws often leads to breaking other laws as well.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted May 31, 2018 07:11 PM

Sorry about the thread necromancy and double post, but
baklava said:
Imagine your kid turning a TV on and seeing drug commercials...
"Sponsored by McRasta - higher than high!"
"Exy - ecstasy with style!"
"You don't rust with Angel Dust!"
On my way to work, I just passed a billboard advertising "Marijuana delivery". Not as catchy as McRasta, but it's still something. More to the point, California has legalized marijuana and I occasionally see ads for it - and the state hasn't gone up in smoke. In reality, there was little to be afraid of. I'm sure some teens (those barbarians!) continue to acquire it illegally, probably more easily now, but it's no disaster. It's similar to how underage drinking can be a problem, but we shouldn't be crying "Won't somebody please think of them children!" and trying to ban alcohol altogether.

(I used to be against marijuana legalization, I was such an authoritarian! I admit my motivation was less than noble - I hated druggies and wanted to crack down on them. I'm still not a fan of them, but that was a really bad reason - dedication to liberty means supporting it for people I don't like.)
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 01, 2018 12:11 PM

mvassilev said:
I'm sure some teens (those barbarians!) continue to acquire it illegally, probably more easily now, but it's no disaster.


Not so sure about that. If it were legal where I live, I'd definitely rather buy it in the shop than going through the trouble of getting it illegally. Legalizing marijuana should be the best way to cripple their dealers.
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fred79
fred79


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SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted June 01, 2018 01:04 PM

i'd be all for legalizing drugs just to stop the cartels having power, but they'd just diversify into human trafficking solely, or something else worse. people would still be getting gruesomely torture-murdered either way. if that wasn't happening, i wouldn't be a fan of legalizing any currently illegal drugs, period. there's a bad enough drug abuse epidemic as it is now, with prescription medication. i don't want to be tripping over junkies in the streets in 10 years and having to pick used needles out of my feet at the beach, or killing a crackhead a day for trying to break into the house; and that's exactly what'll happen. weed is a gateway drug; i can say from personal experience that once i did that, it opened up the floodgates for just about everything else.

that said, it was actually alcohol that got me doing hallucinogens in the first place. and to be honest, i'm not really a fan of alcohol being legal either(because alcohol makes people do mind-numbingly stupid snow, which also makes them more difficult to deal with); but what can you do. societal life as a lower-rung pion screams for a way to fight the boredom and suicidal tendencies.

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artu
artu


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Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 01, 2018 02:25 PM

I dont think weed is a gateway drug, if you have an addictive personality, anything can be a gateway to anything. I know tons of people, who are fully functional and who smoke weed only. They never do any other drug. (Well, some of them tried this and that in their early twenties just for once as an experience but thatís something else.)

To legalize drugs or not is too broad a subject to give a yes or no answer. Which drugs, on which terms? Iím all in for legalizing softcore stuff like weed, it already is legal or de facto commonly used in so many places, but legalizing something like heroin would have the exact consequences of what fredís talking about.
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fred79
fred79


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SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted June 01, 2018 02:39 PM

it's a slippery slope, regardless. standards of living should be improved upon, not escaped from.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted June 01, 2018 03:30 PM

Ok, let me repeat this for the umptieth time:

If you criminalize the so-called "vices" you criminalize the whole society, because things that feel good/are fun are too big a lure/temptation.

It makes no sense.

You have to REGULATE this, that is, introduce reasonable RULES to adhere to when indulging vices.

Specifically with a view on drugs, the problem with them is, that they are too often used not for "recreational purposes", but as a short-term problem solver.
That makes sense, when you have a momentary problem - say, taking pain killers after an accident for a week or so, until it doesn't hurt anymore -, but it's extremely counter-productive for resolving general, long-term peoblems.

That said - you really think that a 350 pound fatty is "better off" (living healthier) than a user of a forbidden drug?

A monkey on your back is a monkey on your back, no matter their color.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted June 01, 2018 03:38 PM

artu said:


To legalize drugs or not is too broad a subject to give a yes or no answer. Which drugs, on which terms? Iím all in for legalizing softcore stuff like weed, it already is legal or de facto commonly used in so many places, but legalizing something like heroin would have the exact consequences of what fredís talking about.
Well, no, actually. Drugs are QUITE different an experience, depending. Not everyone likes the effect of marijuana, much less are fond of the loss of control coming with hallucinogenic drugs, and the indifference that comes with heroin is also something for people who CRAVE that indifference (because they suffer from something and don't want to feel that suffering).

Also, decriminalizing isn't the same as legalizing. Think abortion. Drugs don't have to become a business, as abortion isn't touted as alternative to contraception either. Or lying.

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fred79
fred79


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SCOURGE OF THE H-SEA
posted June 01, 2018 04:27 PM
Edited by fred79 at 16:30, 01 Jun 2018.

JollyJoker said:
Ok, let me repeat this for the umptieth time:

If you criminalize the so-called "vices" you criminalize the whole society, because things that feel good/are fun are too big a lure/temptation.

It makes no sense.

You have to REGULATE this, that is, introduce reasonable RULES to adhere to when indulging vices.

Specifically with a view on drugs, the problem with them is, that they are too often used not for "recreational purposes", but as a short-term problem solver.
That makes sense, when you have a momentary problem - say, taking pain killers after an accident for a week or so, until it doesn't hurt anymore -, but it's extremely counter-productive for resolving general, long-term peoblems.

That said - you really think that a 350 pound fatty is "better off" (living healthier) than a user of a forbidden drug?

A monkey on your back is a monkey on your back, no matter their color.


where itf did i mention the obese? also, apparent almighty venerable guy of wisdom, i don't have to read jack snow that was posted elsewhere in this thread, so "bringing me up to date" with your views like that just make your ego look like a pompous, over-inflated balloon that is in need of desperate popping. no offense or anything, just that you never seem to get anything right when it comes to serious issues. or at least, that i can remember. correct me if you've ever agreed with me. because in case you didn't know, I'M actually the apparent almighty venerable guy of wisdom.

lol, "regulation". LOL. like they aren't already "using regulation" with prescription meds that are causing an epidemic of drug abuse which is destroying WHOLE CITIES in the states. i mean, wtf. dead-wrong from the ground up. what is this, i don't even; yada yada yada.

but to be more serious(not that i wasn't before, just being obnoxious about it)legalizing drugs with "regulations" in the states, will never work. the pharmaceutical companies have already(and are still) screwed(ing) the pooch on that one(what i have come to understand as, fully intentional). our society needs a hard reset, after the vermin at the helm have been removed. this legalize-drugs thing is going BACKWARDS, not forwards. we need freedom, but not that which will damn us and INVITE those overlords above us to SHOW US HOW RESTRAINT WORKS. meaning, they give us the keys to the naughty tool box, only so that they can punish us when we open it. in case you haven't noticed, every "freedom" we've been given, has only been eventually used to restrain or control us. i mean, DUH. ffs, man; wake up. you've been lulled to sleep with loaded gifts.

but, "progress", right? don't make me snowing laugh harder than i already am. what an utter catastrophe people make of things, or allow them to become because they lack the understanding of what's happening around them.

and it's all so PROGRESSIVE. lol.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted June 01, 2018 04:53 PM

Sure, fred, people have of course all the self-control in the world, when it comes to the right to own and use weapons, but when it comes to drugs, people are just a bunch of weak-willed dupes who fall for big brother's ploy to control them.
And sure, fred, freedom is great, but only the freedom you find palatable and trust people to be able to handle - and I admit, considering the general state of the US from outside you may have a point there -, but still trusting them to be able to handle the freedom of fire weapons seems somewhat strange in comparison. Misguided.

Excuse my French, but I don't think you are qualified for an opinion that is worth to be taken seriously.

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